Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #44

[gitana1]

This is both curious and exciting. @gitana1, what do you think?

Not much. Status hearings don't usually amount to much from what I've seen. Are we ready for arraignment? Are we setting a new bond hearing? Are we setting a schedule for pretrial?

The date may have changed due to availability.

Let's see what happens.

In the meantime I found a couple sites that describe the overall criminal process in CO and it appears discovery is typically served at arraignment.

http://www.coloradodefenders.us/wp-...e-to-the-colorado-criminal-justice-system.pdf

The Criminal Court Process in Colorado

 

[Seattle1]

Wonder why it moved up 2 weeks? Could it mean he might be taking a plea?

If a plea offer is made, it often happens on status dates. At least we won't have to wait long for Tuesday!

 

[PommyMommy]

Wonder if it's the Tribune typo. Their article references Division 17 for Tuesday hearing, and that hearing was previously scheduled in Division 16.

The actual hearing Notice cites District 19, Division 17.

Frederick homicide suspect Chris Watts to appear Tuesday in Weld District Court

That's what the docket shows (Div 17 Tues, Div 16 for 11/19).

Colorado Judicial Branch - Court Docket Search

 

[Thepoet]

Not much. Status hearings don't usually amount to much from what I've seen. Are we ready for arraignment? Are we setting a new bond hearing? Are we setting a schedule for pretrial?

The date may have changed due to availability.

Let's see what happens.

In the meantime I found a couple sites that describe the overall criminal process in CO and it appears discovery is typically served at arraignment.

http://www.coloradodefenders.us/wp-...e-to-the-colorado-criminal-justice-system.pdf

The Criminal Court Process in Colorado

Thanks. Great info. And have a great weekend.

 

[cailleach]

Hello All! I decided to check back this evening to see if an active thread was running.

It's good to see the SH has been moved up. I'm guessing we'll have something to discuss as a result as the intention is to get some dates on the calendar and get the case moving forward.

 

[k-mac]

Never got up, as in he strangled her when she was in bed. The emotional conversation would have been in regards to an affair and or separation/divorce.

so tippylyn im just trying to get on your page, this means though that you accept shanann didn't kill the kids....
if chris kills her in bed after an emotional conversation?

this would mean either the kids were safely tucked up in bed when shanann got home and he killed them later or.....they were already dead and exhausted shanann hadn't wanted to disturb them by checking in and had just falling into bed herself.
which if that where the case she wouldn't have been encouraging an emotional chat at that hour of the day.

and...chris wouldnt have had time to follow up and kill the girls...hitch a disposal plan....implement disposal plan....get the house kinda ready and make it to work on time....all sweet...cool and nothing to see here.
he must have already killed them.

no matter which way you look at it, I think we accept chris as the instigator of the 'emotional' conversation....and that is a pretty pathetic blind siding thing to do to another person.....in their circumstance that night/morning and it should highlight to everybody who was actually over the edge.

jmo

 

[kiwilaura]

I am not adding anything new here, but I feel it helps me to thrash out all the thoughts in my head:

- I believe Chris disabled his Facebook due to the affair. He did not want to be tagged in photos with his wife that his mistress could see
- I believe Chris likely told his mistress the marraige was over and they were not sleeping together any more (such a common, common lie in affairs)
- I believe Shanann's pregnancy was a major complication for Chris and his mistress
- I believe that Chris told the mistress he would end his marriage
- I believe Chris wanted to kill Shanann to free himself up for the affair
- I believe Chris killed the children simply because he wanted to make Shanann disappear, and it would not be credible for her not to take the children if she left
- I believe Chris thought the bodies in oil would be impossible to find, and I believe his intention was to put Shanann there too but he failed in this part of the plan
- I believe Chris intended to stage the "disappearance" the next day, and this plan was disrupted by NUA
- I believe Chris genuinely thought that he would get away with everything as there would be no trace of the three

IMO the children were complications and were killed because without doing so, the entire scenario fell over. The alternative to this was that one of the girls witnessed the murder of her mother and it because necessary to kill them all, which may not have been part of the original plan.

I can not decide how it all played out after Shanann closed that door, and I am on the fence about when and who was killed first. I do think the whole disappearance scenario would have been impossible, as it would be natural of Shanann to go straight to her parents. But had the staging gone as planned, it may have been much harder to charge him without bodies.

I do not think it is plausible that:
- If it played out the way Chris has said in his confession, that he would have been composed enough to methodically and unemotionally conduct the disposal (especially so soon after the events) or that he would have been composed enough to give the interviews
- A husband and wife could kill in the same manner at the same time
- That Shanann was so unhinged that she could kill the girls, who she obviously adored
- Shanann would have killed the girls without evidence of ongoing instability/anger issues in the lead up to the event

On the other hand, based on what we know NOW I feel that Chris may be able to get off the murder of the girls on reasonable doubt. However, I feel like he is not very smart, so I am quite confident that he will not have outplayed investigators in this case. I think there is going to be a tsunami of evidence coming his away, 90% of it we have not heard so far.

I think all of his actions were horribly sick, twisted, evil and misguided and it would not surprise me if, eventually, the weight of what he has done eats him up completely with regret.

I keep falling back to Occam's Razor in this case: "Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation." (Occam's razor - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

[Seattle1]

That's what the docket shows (Div 17 Tues, Div 16 for 11/19).
View attachment 153810
Colorado Judicial Branch - Court Docket Search

Hmmm... I thought perhaps they wanted a different Judge, so changed date/division but I don't even find a District 17 in the District Court Judges list. Listing provides for Districts 1-16 with Judge Shannon Lyons assigned to District 16.
Colorado Judicial Branch - Weld County - Judges and Staff

 

[kiwilaura]

It has happened. One case was that mother who picked up her kids for her first day of unsupervised custodial time with them, saying she had a surprise for them. She took them to an abandoned house and slit their throats. One died and one survived.

But here's the thing- universally in these cases where women have done this after the husband tries to separate or files for divorce, there is IMMEDIATE evidence (it comes out within days) that the mother in question had serious psych issues and/or evidence of lack of stability and rage problems in the weeks or months leading up to the murders.

And I don't mean, "Oh she said she had fibromyalgia which isn't a real illness. So she must be capable of this." Or "She talked in a promotional video about being in a dark place years ago and feeling suicidal after being diagnosed with a chronic and difficult disease".

Nope. I'm talking about recent and ongoing calls to 911 over and over due to attacks and threats to do harm, involuntary and/or voluntary hospitalizations due to mental health breaks, intensive domestic violence, hardcore drug/alcohol issues, psychosis, or threats to take the children away if the husband leaves. Some were in the middle of custody battles, had lost custody or were losing ground in on-going cases and one had just been served that day with papers. That kind of thing.

In the Debra Jeter case, for example, she had attempted suicide in front of her daughters just 15 days or so before, leading to her hospitalization and a temporary restraining order.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ce87193d-8ae9-5eb8-8ed0-587a6cc9032e.amp.html

Christy Sheets who killed her two daughters in front of her screaming husband had made several suicide attempts in the three years leading up to the murders and was in current treatment for her mental health.

Julie Schenecker had serious mental health issues and was drinking and acting erratically prior to the murders of her two kids. She was seeing a psychiatrist and her husband felt she wasn't safe around the kids.

Isabel Martinez had been depressed and acting bizarrely with odd outbursts that alarmed neighbors in the weeks leading up to her murder of her husband and for of her kids and attack of a remaining child.

Jessica Edens who killed her ex's girlfriend, her two kids and herself, had been harassing her ex and the girlfriend and there has been several welfare check calls and other calls to police by the ex in the days leading up the murders. He felt the kids were in danger.

Studies are clear that mothers who kill their kids typically have on going mental health issues- frequent depression, psychosis, prior mental health treatment, and suicidal thoughts - while fathers who kill their kids may not:

Child murder by mothers: patterns and prevention

Another post that should be pinned in my opinion.

I would be interested in anyone sharing a case where a mother has killed her children and has NOT had a history of instability? I can't think of one but perhaps more experienced Sleuthers can recall one?

 

[ZsaZsa]

I am not adding anything new here, but I feel it helps me to thrash out all the thoughts in my head:

- I believe Chris disabled his Facebook due to the affair. He did not want to be tagged in photos with his wife that his mistress could see
- I believe Chris likely told his mistress the marraige was over and they were not sleeping together any more (such a common, common lie in affairs)
- I believe Shanann's pregnancy was a major complication for Chris and his mistress
- I believe that Chris told the mistress he would end his marriage
- I believe Chris wanted to kill Shanann to free himself up for the affair
- I believe Chris killed the children simply because he wanted to make Shanann disappear, and it would not be credible for her not to take the children if she left
- I believe Chris thought the bodies in oil would be impossible to find, and I believe his intention was to put Shanann there too but he failed in this part of the plan
- I believe Chris intended to stage the "disappearance" the next day, and this plan was disrupted by NUA
- I believe Chris genuinely thought that he would get away with everything as there would be no trace of the three

IMO the children were complications and were killed because without doing so, the entire scenario fell over. The alternative to this was that one of the girls witnessed the murder of her mother and it because necessary to kill them all, which may not have been part of the original plan.

I can not decide how it all played out after Shanann closed that door, and I am on the fence about when and who was killed first. I do think the whole disappearance scenario would have been impossible, as it would be natural of Shanann to go straight to her parents. But had the staging gone as planned, it may have been much harder to charge him without bodies.

I do not think it is plausible that:
- If it played out the way Chris has said in his confession, that he would have been composed enough to methodically and unemotionally conduct the disposal (especially so soon after the events) or that he would have been composed enough to give the interviews
- A husband and wife could kill in the same manner at the same time
- That Shanann was so unhinged that she could kill the girls, who she obviously adored
- Shanann would have killed the girls without evidence of ongoing instability/anger issues in the lead up to the event

On the other hand, based on what we know NOW I feel that Chris may be able to get off the murder of the girls on reasonable doubt. However, I feel like he is not very smart, so I am quite confident that he will not have outplayed investigators in this case. I think there is going to be a tsunami of evidence coming his away, 90% of it we have not heard so far.

I think all of his actions were horribly sick, twisted, evil and misguided and it would not surprise me if, eventually, the weight of what he has done eats him up completely with regret.

I keep falling back to Occam's Razor in this case: "Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation." (Occam's razor - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

IMO only the person who killed them could ever have shoved them into that filthy tank of crude oil.

 

[ZsaZsa]

so tippylyn im just trying to get on your page, this means though that you accept shanann didn't kill the kids....
if chris kills her in bed after an emotional conversation?

this would mean either the kids were safely tucked up in bed when shanann got home and he killed them later or.....they were already dead and exhausted shanann hadn't wanted to disturb them by checking in and had just falling into bed herself.
which if that where the case she wouldn't have been encouraging an emotional chat at that hour of the day.

and...chris wouldnt have had time to follow up and kill the girls...hitch a disposal plan....implement disposal plan....get the house kinda ready and make it to work on time....all sweet...cool and nothing to see here.
he must have already killed them.

no matter which way you look at it, I think we accept chris as the instigator of the 'emotional' conversation....and that is a pretty pathetic blind siding thing to do to another person.....in their circumstance that night/morning and it should highlight to everybody who was actually over the edge.

jmo

It makes more sense to me that he killed her as soon as she got in. That flight delay was the final straw. The pregnancy test is when he started planning SW's fate, IMO . He wanted a single life, not babysitting 2 kids and one on the way. IMO there was no emotional conversation, he just thought that scenario up to pave the way for a " she got mad and left me" story. He just didn't think to put all her stuff away before NUA serendipitously screwed up his WHOLE PLAN. Shot down in flames.........

 

[panther518]

Hello,

I’m just about caught up on the previous threads, and apologize if this topic has been addressed. Do we know if CW knew the sex of their baby yet? TIA

 

[gitana1]

I am not adding anything new here, but I feel it helps me to thrash out all the thoughts in my head:

- I believe Chris disabled his Facebook due to the affair. He did not want to be tagged in photos with his wife that his mistress could see
- I believe Chris likely told his mistress the marraige was over and they were not sleeping together any more (such a common, common lie in affairs)
- I believe Shanann's pregnancy was a major complication for Chris and his mistress
- I believe that Chris told the mistress he would end his marriage
- I believe Chris wanted to kill Shanann to free himself up for the affair
- I believe Chris killed the children simply because he wanted to make Shanann disappear, and it would not be credible for her not to take the children if she left
- I believe Chris thought the bodies in oil would be impossible to find, and I believe his intention was to put Shanann there too but he failed in this part of the plan
- I believe Chris intended to stage the "disappearance" the next day, and this plan was disrupted by NUA
- I believe Chris genuinely thought that he would get away with everything as there would be no trace of the three

IMO the children were complications and were killed because without doing so, the entire scenario fell over. The alternative to this was that one of the girls witnessed the murder of her mother and it because necessary to kill them all, which may not have been part of the original plan.

I can not decide how it all played out after Shanann closed that door, and I am on the fence about when and who was killed first. I do think the whole disappearance scenario would have been impossible, as it would be natural of Shanann to go straight to her parents. But had the staging gone as planned, it may have been much harder to charge him without bodies.

I do not think it is plausible that:
- If it played out the way Chris has said in his confession, that he would have been composed enough to methodically and unemotionally conduct the disposal (especially so soon after the events) or that he would have been composed enough to give the interviews
- A husband and wife could kill in the same manner at the same time
- That Shanann was so unhinged that she could kill the girls, who she obviously adored
- Shanann would have killed the girls without evidence of ongoing instability/anger issues in the lead up to the event

On the other hand, based on what we know NOW I feel that Chris may be able to get off the murder of the girls on reasonable doubt. However, I feel like he is not very smart, so I am quite confident that he will not have outplayed investigators in this case. I think there is going to be a tsunami of evidence coming his away, 90% of it we have not heard so far.

I think all of his actions were horribly sick, twisted, evil and misguided and it would not surprise me if, eventually, the weight of what he has done eats him up completely with regret.

I keep falling back to Occam's Razor in this case: "Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation." (Occam's razor - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Do you believe it is reasonable to doubt that he killed the kids?

I mean you just listed all the logical reasons why you think he murdered his children. What does "reasonable" mean to you?

For me it has to do with logic. Rationality. Soundness. Credibilty. Sensibility. Plausibility. Tenability.

So reasonable doubt would mean that doubt as to his guilt is based on soundness. On plausibility and rationality and logic. On credibility and sensibility.

I'm not finding anything about his story plausible or sensible, silly unfounded gossip about her character or mental status aside, and everything you stated points to him as the only logical perp.

Sometimes I think the term "reasonable doubt" is interpreted in ways that aren't totally accurate?

It doesn't mean some doubt. Or possible doubt. It doesn't mean that it could be possible he didn't do this or possible that he is telling the truth.

From what I've learned it means when looking at the entire picture- all the evidence including behavior and circumstances, timing, motive, etc., and using logic to analyze that, is it reasonable to doubt his guilt.

How do you feel about that definition?

P.s. These are honest questions. Not intended at all to be snarky!

 

[gitana1]

Another post that should be pinned in my opinion.

I would be interested in anyone sharing a case where a mother has killed her children and has NOT had a history of instability? I can't think of one but perhaps more experienced Sleuthers can recall one?

There have been. But those are typically abuse cases where the parent abused the child to death and/or infanticide were young moms killed a newborn to hide the fact of the pregnancy.

 

[celticthyme]

This couple strikes me as one who really cared about appearances. They definitely lived way outside their means. CW probably looked around and thought, here I am, living in suburbia, trying to support this life style, which I'm not so sure I want anymore. Now there's another kid on the way. I'm stuck. There's a big world out there and many women who think I'm Mr Studly, not Mr Mom. To him, his family were blocks in the road to where he was going. How he thought he could get away with it, is beyond me.

 

[Colorado303]

It has happened. One case was that mother who picked up her kids for her first day of unsupervised custodial time with them, saying she had a surprise for them. She took them to an abandoned house and slit their throats. One died and one survived.

But here's the thing- universally in these cases where women have done this after the husband tries to separate or files for divorce, there is IMMEDIATE evidence (it comes out within days) that the mother in question had serious psych issues and/or evidence of lack of stability and rage problems in the weeks or months leading up to the murders.

And I don't mean, "Oh she said she had fibromyalgia which isn't a real illness. So she must be capable of this." Or "She talked in a promotional video about being in a dark place years ago and feeling suicidal after being diagnosed with a chronic and difficult disease".

Nope. I'm talking about recent and ongoing calls to 911 over and over due to attacks and threats to do harm, involuntary and/or voluntary hospitalizations due to mental health breaks, intensive domestic violence, hardcore drug/alcohol issues, psychosis, or threats to take the children away if the husband leaves. Some were in the middle of custody battles, had lost custody or were losing ground in on-going cases and one had just been served that day with papers. That kind of thing.

In the Debra Jeter case, for example, she had attempted suicide in front of her daughters just 15 days or so before, leading to her hospitalization and a temporary restraining order.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ce87193d-8ae9-5eb8-8ed0-587a6cc9032e.amp.html

Christy Sheets who killed her two daughters in front of her screaming husband had made several suicide attempts in the three years leading up to the murders and was in current treatment for her mental health.

Julie Schenecker had serious mental health issues and was drinking and acting erratically prior to the murders of her two kids. She was seeing a psychiatrist and her husband felt she wasn't safe around the kids.

Isabel Martinez had been depressed and acting bizarrely with odd outbursts that alarmed neighbors in the weeks leading up to her murder of her husband and for of her kids and attack of a remaining child.

Jessica Edens who killed her ex's girlfriend, her two kids and herself, had been harassing her ex and the girlfriend and there has been several welfare check calls and other calls to police by the ex in the days leading up the murders. He felt the kids were in danger.

Studies are clear that mothers who kill their kids typically have on going mental health issues- frequent depression, psychosis, prior mental health treatment, and suicidal thoughts - while fathers who kill their kids may not:

Child murder by mothers: patterns and prevention

Gitana, truly excellent job presenting compelling information/facts! When fathers kill their kids, have there been similar common “signs” or behaviors that could be observed in the days/weeks before the murder?

Unfortunately we have much more info on SW’s behavior/state of mind in the weeks immediately before than we do CW’s, but surely he interacted with people other than the AP during that time. I trust it will come out eventually if he had been acting oddly.

Thank you

 

[PommyMommy]

Hmmm... I thought perhaps they wanted a different Judge, so changed date/division but I don't even find a District 17 in the District Court Judges list. Listing provides for Districts 1-16 with Judge Shannon Lyons assigned to District 16.
Colorado Judicial Branch - Weld County - Judges and Staff

How odd. I can pull up the docket for Division 17. It has docket entries from the 6th through the 30th. I would post, but it has other people's names. What in the world? MOO

 

[BabyButterfly]

The parents continued to use a baby monitor so my guess is that the children didn't always stay asleep through the night. JMO

They didn't. They both had health issues, SW wanted to be able to keep on eye on them.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

A while back I watched part of a video of CW talking about relationships. It seemed to be a presentation or assignment of some sort. Does anyone know why he made that video?

CW says, one reason a relationship could fail is if the partner has an affair with a co-worker. It's quite ironic, isn't it?
This is the information I've found about the youtube video.

A YouTube video posted in April 2012 shows Colorado accused triple killer Christopher Watts, 33, giving a PowerPoint presentation titled “Communication Speech, Relationship Deterioration and Repair.” Mr Watts opened the presentation by explaining it was for a course he was taking.

Killer dad’s chilling YouTube video

 

[Colorado303]

Not much. Status hearings don't usually amount to much from what I've seen. Are we ready for arraignment? Are we setting a new bond hearing? Are we setting a schedule for pretrial?

The date may have changed due to availability.

Let's see what happens.

In the meantime I found a couple sites that describe the overall criminal process in CO and it appears discovery is typically served at arraignment.

http://www.coloradodefenders.us/wp-...e-to-the-colorado-criminal-justice-system.pdf

The Criminal Court Process in Colorado

Is a status hearing also where a request for bond would be made?