Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #44

[BabyButterfly]

I'm curious how many here feel this case will actually go to trial? IMO CW is a coward and won't be able to go the distance. I've had a gut feeling, since the day that he was arrested, that he would either kill himself or take a plea. I believe his self image is very important to him and he might take a plea if he could mitigate damage to that image. I also believe that attorneys are required, by ethics, to be honest with their clients. If so, they should have told him how dire things are for him. Finally, I think his family may not want a trial!

So, will it go the distance?

I don't know why, but I have a horrible gut feeling it won't go to trial. The horrible feeling is that I want the details! I could not care less about CW, he can rot in jail, but Shananns story needs to be known.

 

[zencompass]

Sorry if this has already been posted, but there is a status hearing on Tuesday, 6 Nov!

https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...strict/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/18cr2003.pdf

Dear Mrspratcher,

Thank you for this information.

I have been waiting for the status hearing as I have nothing to add until there is more legal information.

I appreciate your posts with updates. Thanks!

 

[PommyMommy]

I have a question. Does anyone know when NA received that text saying SW would need her more than ever (or whatever it said)? They had just spent the whole weekend together, did SW text her after she went in the house?

Based on this article, my understanding is that SW sent the text from NC.

Shanann's friend said she knew Chris Watts 'had something to do' with family's murders
Atkinson the two had been having problems for several weeks prior to her Shanann’s death. She said Shanann told her that Chris was not acting himself during a recent trip to North Carolina.

“She texted me and said she was going to need a friend now more than ever when she got back,” Atkinson said. “He wasn’t being the loving Chris that he normally was. He wasn’t touching or hugging or doing stuff like that. And he wasn’t being as attentive to the girls as he normally is.”

 

[Thepoet]

While I do believe the autopsy reports will be released, and I'd like them to be released, I also believe the information will be horrible and unsettling. Someone who could do with the bodies, what CW did, is far from normal and, in my opinion, a monster. I'm afraid what he did before, is every bit as bad, as what he did after. I also wish the decision wasn't just before Christmas!

 

[Layla123]

I don't know why, but I have a horrible gut feeling it won't go to trial. The horrible feeling is that I want the details! I could not care less about CW, he can rot in jail, but Shananns story needs to be known.

I’m thinking whether or not this will go to trial will depend on the autopsy reports, and how much more damaging and conclusive evidence there is against CW, and if it’s so much that the State has no other option other than the Death Penalty.

 

[PommyMommy]

Christopher Watts expected to appear in court on Tuesday
Another status conference set for Nov. 19 remained on the docket on Friday afternoon, and DA spokeswoman Krista Henery in an email stated that her office would know more on Tuesday about whether the later hearing would remain on the docket.

 

[Thepoet]

Christopher Watts expected to appear in court on Tuesday
Another status conference set for Nov. 19 remained on the docket on Friday afternoon, and DA spokeswoman Krista Henery in an email stated that her office would know more on Tuesday about whether the later hearing would remain on the docket.

Good info, thanks. Tuesday should be interesting.

 

[Best of What's Around]

In regards to when NUA "went over there"; I've thought about that a number of times and wondered if NUA risked her life with her persistence? What if LE hadn't been there when CW arrived? Would we have ended up with a scenario where SW and NUA disappeared with their kids? NUA interrupted home intruders who kidnapped everyone? NUA is a brave woman and a great friend and definitely a game-changer!

While we have no way of knowing what could go through CW's head, if he were at all thinking rationally, I do not believe she was in danger, particularly given her son was with her. She had already contacted a multitude of people and likely neighbors about SW's whereabouts, tipping them all off as to where she was. But who knows with this guy? CW also didn't skip town after LE's visit, so he still thought he had a chance, as his 3 interviews suggest, even though he didn't get the chance to fully set the scene. He was worried, but not that worried, IMO.

 

[Thepoet]

While we have no way of knowing what could go through CW's head, if he were at all thinking rationally, I do not believe she was in danger, particularly given her son was with her. She had already contacted a multitude of people and likely neighbors about SW's whereabouts, tipping them all off as to where she was. But who knows with this guy? CW also didn't skip town after LE's visit, so he still thought he had a chance, as his 3 interviews suggest, even though he didn't get the chance to fully set the scene. He was worried, but not that worried, IMO.

I agree with you and I believe that during the interviews CW thought he could actually get away with it. He saw himself as charming and convincing.

 

[gitana1]

Hi Gitana,

Perhaps I am interpreting the definition incorrectly. There is definitely not one ounce of my being that thinks Shanann killed her children. I am completely convinced that he murdered them all. For me, there is nothing seen so far that makes me doubt his guilt.

I don't know why I feel that there could be reasonable doubt. Like I said, probably my understanding of the term is wrong. I have just seen people get off with fanciful stories (more local NZ cases then elsewhere) because of the reasonable doubt thing. I just wonder more that members of the jury would think: "it's *possible* for her to have killed the children, and we were not there, so how do we really know?"

Based on what you have explained, I feel better about it all. Unless there is compelling evidence that Shanann killed her children, I would be devastated for him to not be found guilty.

Hugely appreciate your insights by the way, especially for those of us far away for whom USA law is quite unfamiliar.

Thanks. I LOVE NZ by the way. Beautiful, ethereal country.

Yeah I was afraid my post would come across as harsh-sounding and I didn't want it too!

That's pretty much what I'm thinking is that many people view "reasonable doubt" as "possible doubt" and it's not close.

If you're convinced he's guilty as charged due to the facts you know and the application of logic to the case, then any possible doubt wouldn't be "reasonable". That doubt has to be within the bounds of reason rather than within the bounds of anything possible.

But I do understand some wanting to hear everything that will be presented before coming to a conclusion about levels of doubt. Because what if there's something that changes everything? What if there's smaller handprints bruising the kids' necks that don't match CW's hands? What if there are texts from her threatening to harm the kids and/or herself if he tries to leave that somehow haven't been released yet? What if CW has brain damage or something that can remotely explain his behavior?

The likliehood of any of that based on the lack of a request for a bond hearing and the lack of any of that such info being released and also given the charges in this case, is slim to none IMO.

But if some want to wait to see, that's fair.

 

[gitana1]

This site says the extremities will turn blue within 8-12 hours. http://www.memorialpages.co.uk/articles/decomposition.php

By my reckoning if he saw Bella blue she had died at around 8-9pm. Maybe he will wish to recant that detail!

Choking victims turn blue in the face from cyanosis. He was describing what the child looked like as he strangled her.

There is still time to save a person when they're blue 3-5 minutes I think.

This apparently differs from blue coloration that can occur 1/2 an hour or more after death?

Choking - Wikipedia

Cyanosis - Wikipedia

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-body-turn-blue-after-death

 

[katydid23]

Actually it is. You cannot confirm or deny that a patient has an appointment, unless the caller is listed in the patient's chart for "Release of Information".

That being said, HIPPA is violated constantly, based on common sense. If someone close to a patient calls, with verifiable information, asking a specific question, "This is H, calling about my friend, SW, I am very worried about her, did she attend her medical appointment today?". The receptionist already knows that there is a relationship, that there could be a situation that requires release of information, based on common sense.

Often, this type of call is transferred to the office Manager or nurse, to take responsibility for ROI.

You don't have to confirm or deny that anyone is a patient, to answer a question about a person's current well being.

But if a concerned friend calls and says 'my pregnant friend has not been feeling well, she is not responding to calls or texts, not answering the door, the inside lock is set, but her car is here....is she still at her appointment perhaps? '....it is not illegal to say NO, she is not here.

 

[gitana1]

Hypothetically, if he does take a plea, what happens to the evidence? Would the status conference on the autopsies be a moot point or would it still be an issue? Would all of the gathered information as far as phone records, things gathered by LE, DNA, his interviews, etc remain sealed forever or would there be any public disclosure?

My concern is that Shanann's innocence would be forever up in the air if he pleads guilty to some or all of it and no further evidence is released. @gitana1 ?

It's not a status conference on the autopsies. Status conferences aren't for serious matters. The hearing would be moot because there would be no reason to seal the report (no trial) and the reports would be released.

Things like the interrogation tapes would probably be released. The state has the goal of being seen as dispensing judgment so they aren't going to agree to a plea deal that involves secrecy.

 

[Thepoet]

Choking victims turn blue in the face from cyanosis. He was describing what the child looked like as he strangled her.

There is still time to save a person when they're blue 3-5 minutes I think.

This apparently differs from blue coloration that can occur 1/2 an hour or more after death?

Choking - Wikipedia

Cyanosis - Wikipedia

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-body-turn-blue-after-death

Thank you. Very interesting. Interesting, but heartbreaking. OMG!

 

[gitana1]

I'm curious how many here feel this case will actually go to trial? IMO CW is a coward and won't be able to go the distance. I've had a gut feeling, since the day that he was arrested, that he would either kill himself or take a plea. I believe his self image is very important to him and he might take a plea if he could mitigate damage to that image. I also believe that attorneys are required, by ethics, to be honest with their clients. If so, they should have told him how dire things are for him. Finally, I think his family may not want a trial!

So, will it go the distance?

I've felt for awhile that if given the chance he will kill himself.

But if he doesn't I think it will go to trial.

Because the main reason male family annihilators kill IMO is because they're terrified, insecure narcissists desperately afraid of being unmasked. Especially in front of their annihilating family members who expect perfection.

So there's no way a person like that would admit to murder without some lofty justification like rage and grief over the death of his precious kids.

They have to be as perfect as possible. Remember, they chose murder over divorce and child support and having their affair and/or financial issues, etc., uncovered. They chose death over the risk of looking less than perfect.

Then they typically have their exacting families going to absurd lengths to pretend they're not guilty - incredible denials. Spreading false rumors. Making delusional claims- like scott Peterson's family, casey Anthony's family, etc.- so they really feel backed in a corner.

I see this going to trial (if he is prevented from killing himself) and SW being continually eviscerated rather than CW taking responsibility and being accountable. He literally can't do it.

 

[Thepoet]

It's not a status conference on the autopsies. Status conferences aren't for serious matters. The hearing would be moot because there would be no reason to seal the report (no trial) and the reports would be released.

Things like the interrogation tapes would probably be released. The state has the goal of being seen as dispensing judgment so they aren't going to agree to a plea deal that involves secrecy.

Do you think, at this point, the state would take a plea deal?

 

[Tortoise]

Choking victims turn blue in the face from cyanosis. He was describing what the child looked like as he strangled her.

There is still time to save a person when they're blue 3-5 minutes I think.

This apparently differs from blue coloration that can occur 1/2 an hour or more after death?

Choking - Wikipedia

Cyanosis - Wikipedia

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-body-turn-blue-after-death

Yes, his observation shows he saw what only the killer would have seen during the act of strangling Bella - it rules out Shanann.

 

[Thepoet]

I've felt for awhile that if given the chance he will kill himself.

But if he doesn't I think it will go to trial.

Because the main reason male family annihilators kill IMO is because they're terrified, insecure narcissists desperately afraid of being unmasked. Especially in front of their annihilating family members who expect perfection.

So there's no way a person like that would admit to murder without some lofty justification like rage and grief over the death of his precious kids.

They have to be as perfect as possible. Remember, they chose murder over divorce and child support and having their affair and/or financial issues, etc., uncovered. They chose death over the risk of looking less than perfect.

Then they typically have their exacting families going to absurd lengths to pretend they're not guilty - incredible denials. Spreading false rumors. Making delusional claims- like scott Peterson's family, casey Anthony's family, etc.- so they really feel backed in a corner.

I see this going to trial (if he is prevented from killing himself) and SW being continually eviscerated rather than CW taking responsibility and being accountable. He literally can't do it.

That all makes sense and exactly as I see it, except I thought he might accept a plea if everything ended and nothing more came out. However, you said earlier, a plea doesn't stop the release of information, so I'm changing my mind. Suicide or trial. Thanks.

 

[gitana1]

Do some defendants purposely waive an arraignment so that the information that the prosecution has is not distributed in mainstream Media or to the public?. Just to keep it quiet. If I recall correctly that is the step where the prosecution has to lay out some of the evidence. But if is waived, it never comes out at all? How can they move to preliminary hearings, which only discusses timing for the court case, without having an arraignment at all. I guess that's the point of waiving it?

ETA. Corrected to the terminology of arraignment

Arraignment is where they plead guilty or not guilty. You're thinking of a preliminary hearing and some do waive that because they don't want evidence released far in advance of trial for possible jurors to chew on.

Pretrial hearings discuss timing. Arraignment is where they plea and prelim is where a probable cause hearing is held.

 

[mickey2942]

You don't have to confirm or deny that anyone is a patient, to answer a question about a person's current well being.

But if a concerned friend calls and says 'my pregnant friend has not been feeling well, she is not responding to calls or texts, not answering the door, the inside lock is set, but her car is here....is she still at her appointment perhaps? '....it is not illegal to say NO, she is not here.

Yes, it is. But, as I stated earlier, often common sense and patient centered care can prevail.