CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #9

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Her phone being in the couch bugs me. I'm wondering if CW stashed it there so she couldn't call the cops in case she was able to get away from him when he attacked her.

Whatever his maniacal reason was to place the phone in the couch, I'm convinced he did the stashing, believing that somehow he'd be able to destroy it before anyone caught onto him. If there's a way to commit murder correctly, he surely did it all wrong.
 
What happened between 1.48 am & 5.27 am Monday 13 August? (ONE possible scenario for discussion & critiquing) Part 2.

( This is an attempt to explain those previous posts which asked - what on earth was he doing between 2am & 5.27am and some speculating that he actually went and took a nap after the murders. I'm proposing he was delayed as one possibility.)


Part 1- 1-5 of this are here CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #9

  1. It's now c 2.15am and SW's not yet ready to go to bed, not sleepy enough. Instead of disturbing CW by surfing her phone messages in bed, she lies on the sofa upstairs and checks her messages which she often does before bed. ( CW is "waiting" ie. pretending to be asleep, internally getting more worked up and agitated having already killed the kids. He is even more inconvenienced as it doesn't look like she is coming straight to bed & thus is adding more delay to his clear-up plan. He knows he cannot leave the house til around 5am – neighbours camera would show him leaving in truck at a very early time which doesn't fit with Monday's work schedule.)

  2. Around 3 am. Maybe she starts to doze off on that "loft area sofa" whilst scrolling thru phone messages etc, decides she'd better get into bed, leaves her phone there on the couch, takes off her clothes & gets into bed she comes and gets into bed with CW, having left her phone ( off/on silent whatever) on the couch. He waits awhile until it feels as if she is asleep and her breathing has steadied It's c.3.30 am. OR she doesn't actually intend to sleep in the master that night. ( B option SW falls sleep on sofa)

  3. B option: He kills her on that sofa: Around 3am she starts to doze off on the landing sofa and her phone is dropped/left by her in the cushions. Meanwhile CW is waiting thinking – is she coming to bed or not? Eventually 3.30am – 4am , after hearing no noise at all, he feels sure she must be asleep somewhere in the house as she hasn't come to bed. He quietly gets up as he cannot afford to wake her, it will make killing her too noisy with any struggle (thick pile carpets) creeps around and comes to check her location- she is asleep on the couch. He kills her there sometime 3-4am, strangled with pillow over her face to dampen any noise. He's used his full body weight too to counter any resistance. No signs of struggle left in the house.

    OR C – SW goes from sofa and sleeps in a spare bedroom –if they have one. Either because she doesn't want to wake him at all or depending on what she knows re affair( ie she is not ready for a difficult conversation w CW in the morning, she wants to postpone reality for longer.)
So SW is killed anytime 3-4am.

Altho I initially proposed that the kids were already killed before she got home, it doesn't have to be that way. He could kill them now. They're still asleep , nothing woke them as SW's murder was quiet & quick as she was taken unawares whilst sleeping.

If he did kill them after SW, it means even less time for the staging/ clear -up before 5.27am and so the crime scene details were never completed by him.



My thought is that there is no way the dog is going to be acting normal when SW gets home if those kids are already dead in their beds. So there are two possible scenarios:

1. He killed the kids before she gets home. Maybe the dog is locked in the garage. SW walks in to a bad situation and she goes upstairs and they get it on immediately and he kills her too.

2.SW gets home, they get into it, he kills her and then the kids or whatever happened.
 
|I have the notion of a different scene. Clearly things were not the Brady Bunch for quite some time.

One partner in a marriage cant be the only miserable one. It is kinda like an impossibility.

Financial stressors are problematic in any relationship. We have documented proof that he worked hard and was providing a paycheck.

We have one documented income stream. All the rest is marketing.

I think the relationship started to deteriorate from that point forward.

I think he had to time when alone and peaceful for a month and half realized his marriage was over and waited up to tell her his desicion

I would think both ways talking about splitting up had occurred before. I believe she took the kids and ran to family for a month and half was for them to see if divorce was the answer.

I think that helped him make up his mind. Apparently he also had someone in his life that worked for him.

I think when he told her she for the first time knew it was for real. His term emotional fits in here. From the videos we can probably conclude that she was high strung and this reality was really hard for her.

Like I stated early on I think he also told her that he found someone who he was happy with. This can often set off shall we say quite some feelings!

She had an intense response to this. Per her daily declarations that he is her rock, the sunshine of her life, being incapable of living without him , having the bestest husband ,and greatest father in the world , the best life one could imagine BECAUSE of him .

These are her belief systems.

I do not think it is a stretch to say she was scared , livid, hurt. For someone so emotionally enmeshed with another person , to also have it confirmed that he found someone else - in all likelihood would escalate the sistrum. He is leaving her and has someone.

That is a blow.

It makes total sense that he took a break from her intense reaction and went downstairs for a breather.

The phone on the couch IMO is more like her just throwing it in her rage

The sheets all over fits far more with her in rage yanking the sheets off the bed to get to the kids. It fits emotional frenzy and not thinking clearly - enraged.

He is strong . If he was calmly strangulating anyone you don't need to yank off sheets of sleeping kids to murder them.

The scene fits his confession IMO more than a lot of notions about him killing the kids before -- stuff all over the place indicates IMO a horrible 8 minutes of tragedy

It is also somewhat interesting as it relates to the SM junk the main take away is look at how awesome she is, while at the same time using the same superficial measures of contentment (smiling when ordered to do so) it seems few , now, come to the same conclusion about him from SM stuff.

What criteria are we using in determining this "love " for the children. Smiling talking an arm around them. I see him engaging in the exact same behaviors -- so why cant it be that his kids were taken from HIM?

It does happen folks.

The refusal to accept his confession IMO is def influenced by the SM parade. But the only takeaway from the identical behaviors is one is an awesome parent while the other isnt
 
I am really interested in August 11th. What was CW up to? Was the sitter watching the kids? The only timeline I've seen of the weekend isn't from a verified source. Maybe LE questioned the sitter and that information led to the discovery of the affair. If he indeed hired the sitter it would be suspicious given he had weeks sans children.
 
For those that believe his story that they had an emotional conversation or fight on her return:

Why no signs of a fight at the house?
Because it was only an "emotional conversation" don't you know? Not a fight. Before their conscious uncoupling.

Sarcasm aside, I don't think there was a fight. Poor SW was 15 weeks into a high risk pregnancy, wasn't feeling well and just got off a plane. I imagine she wanted to get home, kick off her shoes, check the girls and wind down to sleep. She'd just had a very very long day.

Some really really good scenarios here.
 
I will NEVER forget that day...nor judge love by manifestations or lack thereof...of grief.
I have no doubt of guilt in this case...but not because of his seemingly “uncaring”demeanor. If he was so excellent at premeditation he would have been theatrically beating his breast and tearing his clothes.

snipped by me

I'm with you. I'm not quick to judge people on how they react (although CW's demeanor in the interview really raised my eyebrows).
 
I think the scenario is impossible because if you see someone strangling your children you don't strangle them back. You punch them in the face. You throw them across the room. You bash their head in. Especially a big strong guy. Anything to get them to stop and strangling back is not a defensive move.
Yes, anything to stop her, shoving, pushing, punching, while immediately calling 911. They lived in a subdivision probably emergency services were only minutes away.
 
I don't know if the phone plays a big part in this. I think it's as simple as she just maybe put it on the couch and it fell down. I do it all the time. Of course, my couch is right by my front door. But, there are times I come in and the dogs are all attacking me for loves. I just toss the phone on the couch and then search for 30 mins (ok not that long) trying to find it. I'm sure her dog was very happy to see her. I have 4 doxies and they bark everytime I come home, they attack me like they haven't seen me in years (this even if I take the trash out). What if she put the phone down to love on the dog as not to wake the girls. Of course, we don't know where the dog slept but I haven't seen any crate pictures.
True, we don’t know. But so far in all SM posts, picture and videos, I don’t recall any baby gates.
I do respect where you’re going with that though, for sure and can totally relate.
IF a husband with a bedroom on the second floor, had kids sleeping in bed, he intends to wake up and leave around 6am ish, AND assuming there is a baby gate only at the top of the stairs (just by experience here and not seeing SW baby gates on first floor IIRC), a husband would probably just leave the dog downstairs knowing Deiter (sp) would just be all sorts of excited. So the greeting and loving would’ve occurred downstairs. Again, just MO, experience and my current family dynamics with husband, child and dogs.
The couch referred to is in the loft area, upstairs, so those excited greetings would’ve been done with already. I have two labs and one has an obsession with our tv remotes and my cell phone so I always put up high (now) when I come home (because when you think about it, that’s what smells like us most... especially cell phones).
So I (we) can really go by go by what I/we would do at this point. I use my cell as an alarm, and it sets on my nightstand, next to the baby monitor. I don’t grab it to take a potty break or for whatever reason feel like I need to do the limbo ninja dance to check on our son). And that’s where the rest of my inactment started, no cell phone in hand, head to his room.

O/T I used to do like you do though and just toss it on our couch close to the front door. But even when hiding between the couch cushions, they’d always find it. Three phones and numerous otter box cases later, I think I found the solution. Oh and FIVE tv remotes later lol. OT so reeling it back in on my part.
BTW, I do WFH, as a Technology Director, have dabbled in one MLM (not Thrive, had never heard of it prior), have health issues, high risk pregnancies due to advanced maternal age and those health issues, been divorced, mental/emotional/physical abuse prior, child that was formerly in a private preschool. And yet, I try to see all angles, not just SW. What I won’t indulge in though is someone just looking to say the opposite of anyone that posts without any experience, thought, or insight, hence my break too.

Also, poor Dieter in all this too :(
 
Last part of it ( no point pasting up part 4 here, as that's the unravelling from afternoon of the 13th when NUA arrives.)

Part 3.

So it's now Around 4am through 5.27am due to all the delays as previously outlined. He starts to put his disposal plan into operation.

He has lost so much time & he isn't thinking straight now either. ( Although killing her once she's fallen asleep made everything so much quicker, silent and avoiding trashing the house & waking the neighbours)

  1. He goes to get the bags which he had identified earlier butwas unable to prep/get out of storage prior to her arrival.(As she would see them & wonder why he needed these laundry/sports holdalls, whatever). He now packs the kids in the bags. (PS Often rigor mortis is negligible in kids' bodies regardless of ToD. Also correct me on use of bags if no MSM substantiation for that)

  2. He has to lock the dog, now fully awake, into the garage as the dog starts to get agitated. The dog has either witnessed one of the murders or sensed one of it's loved ones is dead as the bodies are being prepared by CW for transport. Locked away the dog starts to howl 4-5am but it's getting too late to do anything about the dog's cries. ( Fox news article link, neighbour hears dog howling etc.PS irony that Fox = MSM linkable but JMO....)

  3. CW has to check that the house is entirely locked up. He leaves her phone where she left it, he'll deal with that when he gets back from work along with the other personal effects. ( In reality he has to give it to the cops later that afternoon.)

  4. He takes the top sheet & pillow cases off the bed or out of the closet ( or from bedroom unknown, let's assume master bed, affidavit doesn't actually stipulate which room it is from) and puts them in the trash. He possibly strips some other bedding off the master bed which LE later inspects– unknown what items exactly from affidavit so reasons unknown, just classed as "bedding".( All we know is there's no visible signs of foul play so no obvious human material on it. Could it even be as simple as affair evidence on it from weekend stay-over from affair person? That's why CW stripped it?Who knows?) He'll deal with trash disposal when he gets home - he only needs one sheet to wrap SW in during transport.

  5. 5.27am he backs up his truck, knowing neighbour has camera and loads them all + the gas can and his tools & drives away shortly after. (The children are later deposited in the tanks still inside those bags. The sheet left in “a field near the tank battery” is an oversight/ it blew there whilst digging, he intended to bring it home and deal with it when disposing of the rest of the linen. Gas can is taken in case he needs extra fuel – he can't afford to fill up and be seen at a fuel stop.)

  6. He arrives at the tank battery CERVI 319 after a long drive.

  7. Children deposited quickly in each tank – he'd possibly prepped the bolts at a previous visit to that battery. He tries to carry SW into one of the openings. She is heavy and will not fit into the hatch. ( need to check the links again on measurements) He starts to dig a grave ( he's always carried a shovel etc ready in his car for work purposes,) the ground is rock hard so he digs her into one of the berms instead where the earth is softer. He's running out of time to keep to his work shift pattern and it's warm already & light. ( Sun rise 6.20 am colorado) He will have to come back later and either dig better or carry out an unknown Plan B for SW's disposal. ( Rigor mortis sets in 2-6 hrs after death so debateable whether it has set in already and whether this hindered him re SW or other reason he chooses burial.)

  8. He now leaves remote CERVI 319 with intent to return and do a better job with the grave another time. He has to get onto his work schedule and look innocent. Later that morning, CW makes calls & texts to SW's phone to ensure these calls are logged on his phone, to look innocent. ( SW was scheduled at 10 am doctors apptmnt and he would know that, so he may have called around 10am to show an interest in that)
NB it takes very little pressure and time to strangle, especially if victims are asleep. If it's done that effectively as described above, there may be no DNA under anyone's fingernails, no scratches on the assailant due to easy restraint when a victim is so defenceless

When we have the autopsy full results we'll find out the actual facts. ( Parts 1 & 2 on pages 2-3 of thread 9)


they did them last friday -- it sure is long - maybe they will never release
 
My thought is that there is no way the dog is going to be acting normal when SW gets home if those kids are already dead in their beds. So there are two possible scenarios:

1. He killed the kids before she gets home. Maybe the dog is locked in the garage. SW walks in to a bad situation and she goes upstairs and they get it on immediately and he kills her too.

2.SW gets home, they get into it, he kills her and then the kids or whatever happened.

Look at the past cases though where killers- even serial killers have dogs.
Some dogs witness multiple murders without alerting neighbours in the same apartment.
plus very few dogs stop/attack murders when the perp is their master .

I personally feel the dog would have barked ( not necessarily howled) if it saw anyone being killed.
The thing about strangling people when they are asleep and then closing the door on the bodies ( until you need to start moving them thru the house and out) is you can keep the dog away. It doesn't need to be a drag-out noisy struggle.

In the spec scenario I posted, the dog either doesn't know kids are dead/ the kids aren't dead at 2am and simply if the dog greets SW at 2am it shows no anxious behaviour to her because of that.
 
<modsnip: snipped quote that was removed>

Where is the witness list?
 
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I think you can make an argument that he was distant because he was having an affair. But I can't jump from having an affair to murdering the whole family in this case. Maybe in other cases. But not this case.

No. But the ridiculously implausible story of seeing one child sprawled out blue (on a black and white monitor), and the other child being strangled by a suddenly distraught wife, causing a man to coincidentally also react by murdering said wife, and to also coincidentally do it via strangling, (not gun, beating with an object, etc.), instead of throwing her off the child and a) Calling 911, b) Checking pulses, c) Immediately attempting to resuscitate one or both children, d) Running out of the house, screaming and wailing for help...that should allow one to make that leap.

Let's add in a couple things that should enable anyone with critical thinking skills to conclude this man's story is nonsensical garbage and he murdered his whole family:

1. After the laughable story of two parents separately and coincidentally reacting with homicide -and not only homicide but coincidentally, the the exact same method - and dad defying all parental instinct and not even trying to rescue the very precious children who he adored so much that he went out of his mind at the sight of someone harming them, after all that, he again fails to call 911 after killing his wife and again fails to scream in agony at what happened and beg, as ALL distraught parents who love their children do, for help that will never come.

In fact, no screaming in anguish is heard from that house at all that morning, despite the incredible proximity of the houses. Wow. That was one quiet event, seeing your precious kids being killed and reacting with unhinged fury. So silent.

He goes from out of his mind with fury and pain to utterly calm, apparently, in an instant.

2. Not only that, he takes those precious children who he loved so much that he killed at the sight of someone harming him, and he loads them up in his truck, calmly drives away from his house and dumps their precious little bodies in vats of dirty, black oil. No burial for them. Not one damn thing about the way their bodies were discarded to indicate they were loved.

3. He goes to work. He killed his "insane" wife because she destroyed the two people who mattered the most to him, right? And he just goes to work. Where he calmly watched the ring video that shows if anyone is coming to the house.

4. This man who simply snapped at the sight of his precious kids being harmed (remember, there is no way he could've known that they were dead or beyond resuscitation from a glimpse in a monitor), he calmly texts his dead wife and leaves voicemails he knows she will never hear, "Where are you, babe?"

5. The man who knows his entire life is floating in dirty vats of black oil, he then calmly calls his wife's friend when he sees her on the ring video at the house. "What's going on?"

6. The same man who after losing his mind from insane anguish, (anguish that was not vocalized at all) quietly loaded his dead loved ones bodies into his truck, dumped their bodies and then calmly went to work, now, NOW, he suddenly shows emotion and with a "racing heart", he runs several stop lights to get home. So scared of getting caught but able to quietly murder your wife, calmly load up your family's bodies, and drive away, dump them and go to work as if nothing happened? Hmm. Does that makes sense?

7. For the next several hours, the father who loved his babies so much that he went out of his mind at the sight of them being harmed and killed for them (instead of trying to do one thing to save them), he calmly goes through all the friend's lists with police, tries every number available and steadily tries to track down his dead wife and rotting children. "I have no inclination as to where they are."

8. Then, this same, passionately adoring father who lost his mind in grief, two days later he grins and giggles and stares clear eyed at several reporters, not one tiny hint of exhaustion, crying, grief, nope. He stands there looking well rested, casually discussing the where abouts of his precious babies who are rotting in oil, and proudly shows of his shirt. A damn shirt. While his kids corpses float in oil.

So a man so passionate he erupts in homicidal fury, and anguish, he can calmly stand on a porch and discuss his dead children two days later? Is that remotely believable folks?

So while we may not be able to make the leap from an affair (which is present in half the family annihilator cases), to murder, it would seem that any rationally-minded human with critical thinking skills and the ability to use basic logic, could make the leap after hearing his ridiculous story and looking at the facts now.

Finally, lying about your murdered family is not the same as giving a job interview at which you're slightly nervous. A person so passionately in love with his kids that he erupts in homicidal fury when they're harmed is not the same man who two days later smirks and giggles with slight "nerves" as he lies about them.

No that kind of man is the kind who wails and screams like women at a Bangladesh funeral, demands that he be put out of his misery, needs to be hospitalized and never, ever tries to hide what happened.
 
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I think the scenario is impossible because if you see someone strangling your children you don't strangle them back. You punch them in the face. You throw them across the room. You bash their head in. Especially a big strong guy. Anything to get them to stop and strangling back is not a defensive move.
^^^This^^^ EXACTAMUNDO!!!
 
Last part of it ( no point pasting up part 4 here, as that's the unravelling from afternoon of the 13th when NUA arrives.)

Part 3.

So it's now Around 4am through 5.27am due to all the delays as previously outlined. He starts to put his disposal plan into operation.

He has lost so much time & he isn't thinking straight now either. ( Although killing her once she's fallen asleep made everything so much quicker, silent and avoiding trashing the house & waking the neighbours)

  1. He goes to get the bags which he had identified earlier butwas unable to prep/get out of storage prior to her arrival.(As she would see them & wonder why he needed these laundry/sports holdalls, whatever). He now packs the kids in the bags. (PS Often rigor mortis is negligible in kids' bodies regardless of ToD. Also correct me on use of bags if no MSM substantiation for that)

  2. He has to lock the dog, now fully awake, into the garage as the dog starts to get agitated. The dog has either witnessed one of the murders or sensed one of it's loved ones is dead as the bodies are being prepared by CW for transport. Locked away the dog starts to howl 4-5am but it's getting too late to do anything about the dog's cries. ( Fox news article link, neighbour hears dog howling etc.PS irony that Fox = MSM linkable but JMO....)

  3. CW has to check that the house is entirely locked up. He leaves her phone where she left it, he'll deal with that when he gets back from work along with the other personal effects. ( In reality he has to give it to the cops later that afternoon.)

  4. He takes the top sheet & pillow cases off the bed or out of the closet ( or from bedroom unknown, let's assume master bed, affidavit doesn't actually stipulate which room it is from) and puts them in the trash. He possibly strips some other bedding off the master bed which LE later inspects– unknown what items exactly from affidavit so reasons unknown, just classed as "bedding".( All we know is there's no visible signs of foul play so no obvious human material on it. Could it even be as simple as affair evidence on it from weekend stay-over from affair person? That's why CW stripped it?Who knows?) He'll deal with trash disposal when he gets home - he only needs one sheet to wrap SW in during transport.

  5. 5.27am he backs up his truck, knowing neighbour has camera and loads them all + the gas can and his tools & drives away shortly after. (The children are later deposited in the tanks still inside those bags. The sheet left in “a field near the tank battery” is an oversight/ it blew there whilst digging, he intended to bring it home and deal with it when disposing of the rest of the linen. Gas can is taken in case he needs extra fuel – he can't afford to fill up and be seen at a fuel stop.)

  6. He arrives at the tank battery CERVI 319 after a long drive.

  7. Children deposited quickly in each tank – he'd possibly prepped the bolts at a previous visit to that battery. He tries to carry SW into one of the openings. She is heavy and will not fit into the hatch. ( need to check the links again on measurements) He starts to dig a grave ( he's always carried a shovel etc ready in his car for work purposes,) the ground is rock hard so he digs her into one of the berms instead where the earth is softer. He's running out of time to keep to his work shift pattern and it's warm already & light. ( Sun rise 6.20 am colorado) He will have to come back later and either dig better or carry out an unknown Plan B for SW's disposal. ( Rigor mortis sets in 2-6 hrs after death so debateable whether it has set in already and whether this hindered him re SW or other reason he chooses burial.)

  8. He now leaves remote CERVI 319 with intent to return and do a better job with the grave another time. He has to get onto his work schedule and look innocent. Later that morning, CW makes calls & texts to SW's phone to ensure these calls are logged on his phone, to look innocent. ( SW was scheduled at 10 am doctors apptmnt and he would know that, so he may have called around 10am to show an interest in that)
NB it takes very little pressure and time to strangle, especially if victims are asleep. If it's done that effectively as described above, there may be no DNA under anyone's fingernails, no scratches on the assailant due to easy restraint when a victim is so defenceless

When we have the autopsy full results we'll find out the actual facts. ( Parts 1 & 2 on pages 2-3 of thread 9)
Is it known that the kids were still in bags in the tanks? They would definitely float then, even though in crude an unbagged body might float for long while.
 
True, we don’t know. But so far in all SM posts, picture and videos, I don’t recall any baby gates.
I do respect where you’re going with that though, for sure and can totally relate.
IF a husband with a bedroom on the second floor, had kids sleeping in bed, he intends to wake up and leave around 6am ish, AND assuming there is a baby gate only at the top of the stairs (just by experience here and not seeing SW baby gates on first floor IIRC), a husband would probably just leave the dog downstairs knowing Deiter (sp) would just be all sorts of excited. So the greeting and loving would’ve occurred downstairs. Again, just MO, experience and my current family dynamics with husband, child and dogs.
The couch referred to is in the loft area, upstairs, so those excited greetings would’ve been done with already. I have two labs and one has an obsession with our tv remotes and my cell phone so I always put up high (now) when I come home (because when you think about it, that’s what smells like us most... especially cell phones).
So I (we) can really go by go by what I/we would do at this point. I use my cell as an alarm, and it sets on my nightstand, next to the baby monitor. I don’t grab it to take a potty break or for whatever reason feel like I need to do the limbo ninja dance to check on our son). And that’s where the rest of my inactment started, no cell phone in hand, head to his room.

O/T I used to do like you do though and just toss it on our couch close to the front door. But even when hiding between the couch cushions, they’d always find it. Three phones and numerous otter box cases later, I think I found the solution. Oh and FIVE tv remotes later lol. OT so reeling it back in on my part.
BTW, I do WFH, as a Technology Director, have dabbled in one MLM (not Thrive, had never heard of it prior), have health issues, high risk pregnancies due to advanced maternal age and those health issues, been divorced, mental/emotional/physical abuse prior, child that was formerly in a private preschool. And yet, I try to see all angles, not just SW. What I won’t indulge in though is someone just looking to say the opposite of anyone that posts without any experience, thought, or insight, hence my break too.

Also, poor Dieter in all this too :(

someone just looking to say the opposite of anyone that posts without any experience

do we know anyone experiences or knowledge ?

do we know anyones reasons for posting ?

if so, how?
 
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