Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW GUILTY* #47

[PommyMommy]

Continuation of summary of the main points of the podcast: Tricia, liltexans, gitana1, Levi Page. Some but not all is verbatim.

T: Levi Page, do you have any idea why Chris’s side just did not want these autopsies released? Everybody was clamouring for them. They would have been released at some point anyway?

LP: Because I think they were wanting him to plead not guilty and if the autopsy reports were released, then everyone would see what the victims went through, what exactly he did to the victims and it would get people angry all over again, even more angry than before because we’re getting the details in such a gruesome way, in black and white on paper, and I think that it would make him look good and they don’t want him to look bad, so they didn’t want them released.

T: There might be some really horrific things in that autopsy report.

[Discussion re social media]

T: I can tell you that CW’s family definitely, at least when he was first arrested, vehemently denied that he killed all 3. They absolutely believed that he killed Shan’ann because Shan’ann was killing the girls, had killed the girls. I don’t know how they feel now. It sounds like the mother still believes that but I’m wondering if maybe some of his family members might be coming around a bit. You know, “This kid that we know and love, maybe he did do this”, and I’m sure it was a shock. Gitana, what is next? He’s sentenced. Now will he be allowed [sound breaks up] and find some piece of evidence and they want to appeal his guilty plea. Can they do that? Is there a way that they can try and overturn later his plea?

G1: Yes, there is. After sentencing that’s pretty much one of the only ways that you can withdraw a guilty plea is if there exists evidence of material facts that weren’t presented before, weren’t heard and that they could not have with reasonable diligence discovered at the time of the plea. So if something came up that no-one involved in this investigation and in this case, no-one knew of and could not have discovered before the plea, that’s one of the rare ways that you could actually overturn a guilty plea after sentencing, after the 19th. The other ways, you’ve got a conviction that was obtained or a sentence that’s imposed in violation of the Constitution or a violation of the law, the laws of the United States or the Constitution, the laws of the state, and big things like his due process rights were violated or there was a failure to advise him of his rights. That’s why they write these things out, these waivers and pleas, because all the due process requirements are right in there. So he can’t assert that. Or the law was a law that was in violation of the Constitution. It’s exceedingly hard and very difficult and I don’t see any of that happening successfully for this guy.

THE END

Thank you Tricia, liltexans and gitana1 for this fantastic podcast.

NB. JJ's transcription service has closed for the night. zzzzzzzzzzz

Thank you so very much, JJ. That was a lot of work - excellent job!

 

[mickey2942]

I'm really torn about this detail.

On the surface it looks to be some level of remorse. But very controlled remorse if so - very late in the day. Didn't exist when he was denying it. He was capable of strangling (or otherwise killing) her. He was capable of ramming her tiny body inside an oil vat. Why did grief not show itself in his eyes as he spoke of his little Rampage? I am suspect of the tears. But maybe there was a tinge of acknowledgement of his own depths of depravity? Or shame. I don't know.

He cries for himself. He is sorry that he is in jail, in court. His fantasy of eliminating his family didn't quite manifest to the reality of being caught. His fantasy went from killing them to living a life free from the responsibilities. He didn't process the "in between" reality of body disposal, explaining their disappearance, he is really quite low on the IQ spectrum of family annihilators. INMO. The lack of comprehensive planning makes me think that this was not planned out. He thought about it, but never really planned it, then something happened that spiraled out of control. I believe that he became enraged with the kids, killed them, and in his "head" it was all SW's fault, so he killed her when she came home.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Of course! I had noticed

< respectfully snipped> I wouldn't be surprised to find out his AP is the person who bought him that shirt he was so happy about. Not surprised at all.

When it first came out about AP, I said the exact same thing on the threads. His demeanor so significantly changed when that question was asked and then he hemmed and hawed as far as where it was purchased from and I was thinking and saying on the threads that law enforcement was going to investigate where that shirt was purchased from. He said from Amazon. Verses that they purchased it when they were in the Carolinas!

And within 2 days I saw a show, perhaps homicide hunter or something like that, where they brought in somebody purposefully to tell the person they thought was a close family member who would support them, that they thought they were guilty and they would no longer support them. That is what made them confess in that true crime TV show.

Sometimes I wonder if some stations know what cases are going on, and they replay shows that are specifically on-target to a case we are following?

ETA- I would not be surprised if AP was not brought in to do the same thing in this case. I do not know, but I would not be surprised.

 

[Tortoise]

He cries for himself. He is sorry that he is in jail, in court. His fantasy of eliminating his family didn't quite manifest to the reality of being caught. His fantasy went from killing them to living a life free from the responsibilities. He didn't process the "in between" reality of body disposal, explaining their disappearance, he is really quite low on the IQ spectrum of family annihilators. INMO. The lack of comprehensive planning makes me think that this was not planned out. He thought about it, but never really planned it, then something happened that spiraled out of control. I believe that he became enraged with the kids, killed them, and in his "head" it was all SW's fault, so he killed her when she came home.

One thing he forgot to factor in is you can't predict what other people will do. Like finding a way of climbing up to look in through 8ft high windows to see if the car is in the garage. Had the car been gone I suspect NUA might not have been as persistent. Could be wrong.

 

[NuttMegg]

Their rep in court wouldn't have seen that though. Wonder how they got the info.

Tortoise do you remember that strange PEOPLE mag article that came out last week? About CW crying and screaming and saying he knew his life was over "after he killed Shan'ann"? Remember it did not say after he killed all of them. So it's obvious to me that the same person who colored that account of his anguish also told the murder podcast people about the mother getting shut down by the PDs in the meeting with CW before the hearing.

That murder place has consistently presented tidbits favorable to CW (and unfavorable to SW) that were not from public accounts, IMO. 2 + 2 = 4

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise do you remember that strange PEOPLE mag article that came out last week? About CW crying and screaming and saying he knew his life was over "after he killed Shan'ann"? Remember it did not say after he killed all of them. So it's obvious to me that the same person who colored that account of his anguish also told the murder podcast people about the mother getting shut down by the PDs in the meeting with CW before the hearing.

That murder place has consistently presented tidbits favorable to CW that were not from public accounts, IMO. 2 + 2 = 4

Yes. And I tend not to read or believe those kinds of articles, because I detest sensationalism.

 

[Mandi3020]

I’m way behind, and plan to curl up next to the fire today and get caught up on this thread. But, I just wanted
to comment that CW could have divorced SW, signed over his parental rights, moved to a new area and never have mentioned his former life again. He chose the darkest path to take because his soul is black. I believe in good and evil, heaven and hell. CW is evil. He’s so evil, there is no spot in his soul for God. As a Christian this pains me. As a wife, mother, grandmother, member of the human race, I’m glad his future on earth and beyond is literal hell.



MOO

 

[gitana1]

Continuation of summary of the main points of the podcast: Tricia, liltexans, gitana1, Levi Page. Some but not all is verbatim.

T: Levi Page, do you have any idea why Chris’s side just did not want these autopsies released? Everybody was clamouring for them. They would have been released at some point anyway?

LP: Because I think they were wanting him to plead not guilty and if the autopsy reports were released, then everyone would see what the victims went through, what exactly he did to the victims and it would get people angry all over again, even more angry than before because we’re getting the details in such a gruesome way, in black and white on paper, and I think that it would make him look good and they don’t want him to look bad, so they didn’t want them released.

T: There might be some really horrific things in that autopsy report.

[Discussion re social media]

T: I can tell you that CW’s family definitely, at least when he was first arrested, vehemently denied that he killed all 3. They absolutely believed that he killed Shan’ann because Shan’ann was killing the girls, had killed the girls. I don’t know how they feel now. It sounds like the mother still believes that but I’m wondering if maybe some of his family members might be coming around a bit. You know, “This kid that we know and love, maybe he did do this”, and I’m sure it was a shock. Gitana, what is next? He’s sentenced. Now will he be allowed [sound breaks up] and find some piece of evidence and they want to appeal his guilty plea. Can they do that? Is there a way that they can try and overturn later his plea?

G1: Yes, there is. After sentencing that’s pretty much one of the only ways that you can withdraw a guilty plea is if there exists evidence of material facts that weren’t presented before, weren’t heard and that they could not have with reasonable diligence discovered at the time of the plea. So if something came up that no-one involved in this investigation and in this case, no-one knew of and could not have discovered before the plea, that’s one of the rare ways that you could actually overturn a guilty plea after sentencing, after the 19th. The other ways, you’ve got a conviction that was obtained or a sentence that’s imposed in violation of the Constitution or a violation of the law, the laws of the United States or the Constitution, the laws of the state, and big things like his due process rights were violated or there was a failure to advise him of his rights. That’s why they write these things out, these waivers and pleas, because all the due process requirements are right in there. So he can’t assert that. Or the law was a law that was in violation of the Constitution. It’s exceedingly hard and very difficult and I don’t see any of that happening successfully for this guy.

THE END

Thank you Tricia, liltexans and gitana1 for this fantastic podcast.

NB. JJ's transcription service has closed for the night. zzzzzzzzzzz

Wow! Thanks so much for summarizing! It's interesting to see a recap in print.

I hope people will listen too though because there's more on the podcast!! A lot of stuff about who Shanann really was.

 

[Tortoise]

Wow! Thanks so much for summarizing! It's interesting to see a recap in print.

I hope people will listen to though because there's more on the podcast!!

I've listened. It was SO INTERESTING. Loved it. Thank you to all of you.

 

[Thepoet]

On a darker note; I've thought about it a great deal and I've come to the conclusion, IMHO, that CW will have a lifespan of, no more than, two to five years. I believe he's at high risk of being murdered because of his crimes, including what he did with his daughter's bodies, and also because of his personality. He expects to be catered to and for no demands to be put upon himself. That won't fly in prison and will create a conflict. Conflicts in prison are very dangerous. Beyond that, even though I believe he's a coward, I also believe the hopelessness of his life and existence will overwhelm him and he'll pull the plug at the first opportunity. He's a weak, cowardly man who has used those who loved him. Now he's going to a place. with no escape, where he'll be used. What he wants and needs no longer matters, in any way. He no longer matters, in any way. And I believe it's beginning to hit home with him. I just cannot see him accepting and adjusting. He murdered three people who loved him, and his unborn baby, to get what he wanted, so he'll murder himself to get what he wants; final escape and closure.

 

[Thepoet]

Wow! Thanks so much for summarizing! It's interesting to see a recap in print.

I hope people will listen to though because there's more on the podcast!!

Great job as always Gitana! Thanks so much for your time and insight.

 

[liltexans]

Amazing podcast! Just getting into the discussion of that other podcast. Some thoughts... @liltexans so insightful! And I expected you to have a deep southern accent lol! @Tricia thank you for making this site exist. It's good to hear your opinions. @gitana1 Amazing input. On the site, the case, FAs, and putting things in perspective. Already pretty much made clear you're my legal hero lol. Still listening

Thank you for listening to the podcast and for the compliment. I was born and raised in the Midwest. I guess I was too old when I moved to Texas to pick up the accent. haha

I’m so glad you enjoyed the podcast.

 

[gitana1]

OMG, I just had a lightbulb moment listening to gitana1 talking about the typical FA's relationship with their own mother.

Paraphrasing, or at least this is the way I understood what she said - wtte that their own personality has been annihilated by the mother who demanded perfection.

It makes so much sense to me in that case how the FA would then have such a fragile sense of his true personality not being acceptable if he is about to be unmasked by his wife or unmasked by himself in leaving the family, as being imperfect. It doesn't explain to me why they would kill the babies, but I suppose they may be looking to the future and imagining the children also not viewing their father as perfect and godlike because he recognizes they adore their mother. In a way it is the recognition of his own flaws that drives him to wipe out all who may judge him the same way. If his wife and children are gone, it is then understandable that he will find a new partner - so no need to kill his family of origin.

I think it is certainly an angle that I'll be thinking more about. I am sure it could relate to fathers too.

Yes. I posted about this theory before. An FA's identity has been annihilated by domineering parents or guardians who are enmeshed with their child.
Male annihilators are typically perceived as loners or socially awkward. Quiet. But really they don't have much identity apart from their parents.

They do everything the parents direct them to.

Then they often marry strong, vibrant and decisive women. They latch on to them because they need to anchor to a real identity and someone who can make decisions. They're sometimes not used to that for themselves.

That's where some of the apologists sort of see CW as led or dominated by his wife. Well, he picked her for a reason. He has no personality of his own.

But they're really living a life that's not their own. Because few of the things they've done in life were a result of their own identity - their own desires. It's mostly about what they think they're supposed to be doing. Or want.

They're living someone else's life because they have no concrete identity of their own.

Then at a certain point some trigger happens to shift their world. Financial issues. An unwanted pregnancy. An affair. Maybe they start to have a secret life that feels more vibrant and real. They grow to loathe the farce of living someone else's life.

But these types don't handle change or stress well and they can't handle being unmasked. They're so used to playing a role- being someone else. And their egos are very fragile. They're terrified of being revealed as less than perfect. Of stepping out of line. They're terrified of what's underneath.

So they choose death. They annihilate their families because just as their own identity was annihilated in childhood, and enmeshed with a parent, they are enmeshed with their own kids. They didn't have a real identity and they can't conceive of their children having a real, independent identity. So they too, can annihilate their kids.

Ultimately they annihilate their families to prevent themselves, ironically, from being unmasked. But also because they're annihilating a life they hate that was always someone else's.

Caveat: I'm no psych expert. This theory comes from reading psych experts and reading books about these families and about personality disorders and enmeshement and also hearing other's theories which have developed mine.

 

[Thepoet]

Continuation of summary of the main points of the podcast: Tricia, liltexans, gitana1, Levi Page. Some but not all is verbatim.

T: Let’s talk about the possibility of, could this be an excuse or reason to rescind his guilty plea in that he was not allowed to meet with his family at all except for 30 minutes before the plea was announced. Gitana, I am so anxious to hear your answer to this. Is there any possibility he can withdraw this plea?

G1: I think the ability for him to do it would be extremely hard because there’s two different factors in Colorado when you come to a withdrawal of plea. One is before sentencing and one is after. It is easier before sentencing, and we are before sentencing. However, there’s no absolute right. He doesn’t have a right to withdraw his plea before sentencing. He’s got to show a few things. He’s got to show that the denial of the request will subvert justice. So if he’s requesting to withdraw his plea, denying that would subvert justice and he has to show that there is a fair and just reason for doing so.

And I know some people who really are not convinced of his guilt are going to pounce on that and say, “Well, he didn’t get to talk to his mommy. That’s fair. It’s fair and just to set it aside because he really should have had the ability to do that”. No. He’s a grown man and that’s not one of the reasons that any of the court cases that discuss what a fair and just reason for withdrawing a plea of guilty would be. I can give you some examples. One would be a denial of the Constitutional right to effective assistance of counsel. So he’d have to show that his counsel was ineffective. They basically committed malpractice. They were terrible. And I can tell you from watching this case and reading their pleadings and seeing how they strategized, this was a very effective defence team. They were extremely intelligent. I was amazed by them. It scared me, because I started to get scared. I thought, wow, they might pull something off. I felt that eventually he’d be found guilty but it might take a while with this defence team. They knew what they were doing. There’s not going to be any ineffective assistance of counsel.

Also there a plea of guilty entered by mistake or under a misconception of the nature of the charge. So he doesn’t know what he’s pleading to or he doesn’t understand the charges, and none of that is gonna be present I can assure you. And then we’ve got the plea was entered through fear, fraud or official misrepresentation. So maybe the DA is threatening something that isn’t reality or they’re lying about some aspect of the case, or was otherwise made involuntarily for some reason. So his ability to withdraw the plea effectively is not going to be there. Could he try? Yes, and I think that’s why the DA was saying, “Listen, we’re not talking about this. We’re not going to say anything about this case, about the investigation, until after sentencing because then it gets even harder.

To be cont’d

Thanks so much for all the time and hard work, it's greatly appreciated. Reading it creates a different and very helpful perspective.

 

[gitana1]

I agree. Most of those attacks on SW's parenting really got to me, not only because my parenting is very much along the same lines but because when I was a Crisis Intervention Specialist, I worked with state social workers. If a family was considered at risk for child removal, the state would call us in to work with the family to help them make the necessary changes they needed to make in order to keep their kids. I've seen tons of abuse, from sexual abuse to emotional and educational abuse. Even religious abuse. Nothing in SW's videos would have given us any kind of pause. A case would not have been open on her. Abuse can manifest itself in many different ways, and there are varying degrees of it, but SW's videos exhibited nothing that would've raised our eyebrows. In fact, I applauded many of the things she did.

You can't point to something in a video, a parenting choice that you don't agree with but something that's not abuse, and declare it as "evidence" for murder when everything she did with her kids was totally subjective.

Yeah for those of us exposed to real child abuse and neglect in the course of our jobs, it was offensive to hear disagreements about parenting styles described as abuse.

Hell, we see the real horror everyday on these threads. It was some sort of cognitive dissonance going on to equate the things we saw in the videos- which professionals on here asserted were innocuous- with the reality of true abuse and neglect.

In the end I think some had a very negative opinion of Shanann for a variety of different reasons and grasped at anything that could support that opinion.

 

[gitana1]

One of SW's friends told me recently that CeCe was clearly his favorite. I was surprised for the exact reasons you outlined in his description of the two. And reports from people who were in the courtroom Tuesday said he didn't cry until he said "guilty" to her murder--it was the third count read.

Interesting! He described Bella as more like himself. Calm and mothering.

He liked the child that was more like his wife - outgoing and exuberant - the most.

Fits with the angst about his own identity or lack thereof. He admired what he wasn't.

 

[gitana1]

Thank you for listening to the podcast and for the compliment. I was born and raised in the Midwest. I guess I was too old when I moved to Texas to pick up the accent. haha

I’m so glad you enjoyed the podcast.

I was super impressed by you. And the fact that you have moderated these boards during such a divisive time without letting your personal opinions get in the way of trying to accomplish fair moderation.

That could not be easy!

 

[Thepoet]

I was super impressed by you. And the fact that you have moderated these boards during such a divisive time without letting your personal opinions get in the way of trying to accomplish fair moderation.

That could not be easy!

I second that! Great job liltexans! And I don't say that just because I'm a Texan!

 

[Thepoet]

Will CW feel the need to get something on the record at the Nov. 19th hearing? Apology? Explanation? Blame? Something unexpected?

Or just stony silence?

@gitana1 will his attorneys want him to speak or shut up?

 

[gitana1]

I'm really torn about this detail.

On the surface it looks to be some level of remorse. But very controlled remorse if so - very late in the day. Didn't exist when he was denying it. He was capable of strangling (or otherwise killing) her. He was capable of ramming her tiny body inside an oil vat. Why did grief not show itself in his eyes as he spoke of his little Rampage? I am suspect of the tears. But maybe there was a tinge of acknowledgement of his own depths of depravity? Or shame. I don't know.

If his voice had broken and he had briefly put his head in his hands when he said "we call her rampage because..." That would've been so different in many ways.

Everyone before we knew they were dead would see real emotion and translate that to normal concern and fear about the whereabouts and condition of their missing child.

And later, when we found out they were dead it would've made his story more believable. His lack of concern or grief for them in those interviews was really a huge thing that pointed toward his guilt.

But even knowing he was responsible, it would have been something. Some sign that he had an ounce of remorse.

It's too late for me now.