Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW GUILTY* #47

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  • #861
There was a true crime documentary I saw, about a mother and son who murdered the son's wife by following behind her car one night (with the couple's children in the car with their grandmother and father, wearing something like hallowe'en masks so that they wouldn't witness what happened) and the mother shooting her daughter-in-law dead out the car window as they overtook. I may be getting mixed up with another case but I think it was this one - the mother couldn't help herself from bragging to someone in jail awaiting trial, about where she had buried the gun.

That was not a case of family annihilation but still the daughter-in-law was put at risk by the husband's unhealthy relationship with his mother. She ran his adult life.

I would add it to the list of red flags, not necessarily a strained relationship between mother and daughter-in-law, because that is all too common, but seen in conjunction with the traits of a son still enmeshed with his mother and clearly a personality disorder on some level. How those traits can be defined is still yet another challenge. I think there would have been signs, and I think friends would not have seen the real Chris. His greatest fear was being unmasked so of course he would make sure that their friends never saw any imperfections. But I don't think the same applies to behind closed doors, when the camera's not running. Sometimes we think we are being silly and dismiss our own brain telling us that it registered a flicker of something unsettling. We don't want to believe it so we don't take action and we don't tell anyone else. We are being silly. We are not being positive, we are indulging our own fears based on our own past. We can fix it with love. We maybe caused it or contributed to it. etc. I have to think that this was a fatal mix of ingredients and it did not come from nowhere at all. It didn't just happen. He brewed this. He cheated. He became distant. He deleted his social media. He was acting like he had secrets. He was no longer present in his marriage. He had moved on. He felt no attachment to any of them. They were an inconvenience and an impediment to his new life.
 
  • #862
Exactly. In a normal case you have two options, the suspect did it, or someone else did.

Here, we had a suspect who had a mountain of evidence on top of him.

The only alternative was to ignore the evidence, and blame the victim, based solely on the word of a self admitted liar.

It’s one thing if there is evidence to support his claims, but there was none.


I don’t think we will ever know and understand the dynamics of their relationship. We know a minuscule tid bit size of it. And living failed relationships, I do understand there are many conflicts
Within a marriage.

And I understand, to the degree one is able, the “JOHN LIST METHOD OF PRIBLEM SOLVING”.

But Lust killed older kids. I can’t wrap my reasoning around killing babies. Gathering children after watching their birth, learn to talk and walk is beyond my grasp.

I’m at a loss to truly understand it.

He’s confession and guilty plea is confirmation and it rather demands ivunderstand.
 
  • #863
The main thing is done. She is innocent. Chris Watts said it. No "alternative versions" anymore.

About discussions of Shanann character. This will happen. Give or take, Shanann trusted CW, wanted to have one more kid with him, and ended up dead and in a shallow grave. Her two daughters dead, too. So she made at least one huge mistake, and missed something. And now we already have Chris Watts, Scott Peterson, and several more. And all these young vibrant women dead because they trusted their spouses. How do we avoid similar scenarios in the future?

There will be books, attempts to understand the dynamic of the family, comparisons between Chris Watts and Scott Peterson will be drawn for sure. Some of Shanann's mistakes will be discussed, if only in the context of certain warning signs that she might have missed.

And possibly, what other people might have done differently will be discussed, too. I am asking myself, is it possible that some of SW's friends might have guessed about AP, ran into her and CW, since it all happened in such a small area? But no one warned SW. It is the norm; we consider it "not our business". Would this story have a different ending if Shanann was told about the AP?

So there will be more information and discussions. It is inevitable.

There’s a big part of me that feels that the friends have hugely downplayed the knowledge of AP or her suspicions. Particularly NAU. They were extremely close so I believe she’s heard a lot of “bitching” as well as defeated tears. But she’s such a loyal friend (as all of Shannan’s
friends have appeared to be) that she’s keeping that close to her heart, out of respect. Whether she becomes more forthcoming after the 19th (and all she’s heard CW say about her best friend) I’m curious to see (and wouldn’t be surprised nor blame her, if she did)
JMO
 
  • #864
I totally agree with you and believe it will be the best option for both of us :)
Reading between the lines, I come away with the idea that the DA didn't learn a thing from the plea process, about CW, beyond what he had finally said in his confession after speaking with his father.
Which is why he said we can't believe anything CW says, because of all the false stories he told in the interviews and, IMO, all the lies he told to LE before the consultation with the father. And the lies, IMO, he told AFTER the consultation. And it seems like at the sentencing on the 19th we won't learn anything new either, nor will the DA.

This must seem obvious to some, I guess I'm slow. It seems weird to me that someone can get a plea accepted for so many murder counts without spilling the beans, so to speak, but that must be the legal system.
 
  • #865
Absolutely, Shanann was also angered that the MIL did not have a safe alternative for Celest. What kind of grandmother gives other children ice cream in front of a 2 year old and expects them to understand?? Cruel and no reason except for what you stated.

Sorta O/T, but my MIL tells a story about her MIL doing same thing. She gave the two youngest kids ice cream, but not the oldest, as he was born out of wedlock and she resented him.

My MIL picked up the bowls of ice cream and threw them in the sink. If they all can't have it, none of them can.
 
  • #866
Sorta O/T, but my MIL tells a story about her MIL doing same thing. She gave the two youngest kids ice cream, but not the oldest, as he was born out of wedlock and she resented him.

My MIL picked up the bowls of ice cream and threw them in the sink. If they all can't have it, none of them could”
!

K not sure what happened there lol but what I said was, that could not have been easy for her. Especially back then when we women had even less space to feel empowered. Your MIL is my kind of woman!
 
  • #867
Reading between the lines, I come away with the idea that the DA didn't learn a thing from the plea process, about CW, beyond what he had finally said in his confession after speaking with his father.
Which is why he said we can't believe anything CW says, because of all the false stories he told in the interviews and, IMO, all the lies he told to LE before the consultation with the father. And the lies, IMO, he told AFTER the consultation. And it seems like at the sentencing on the 19th we won't learn anything new either, nor will the DA.

This must seem obvious to some, I guess I'm slow. It seems weird to me that someone can get a plea accepted for so many murder counts without spilling the beans, so to speak, but that must be the legal system.

I think the DA only did it this way because this is what SW family wanted. I have watched other trials where part of the plea is they have to tell the truth about what happened in court--but they always lie and try to put themselves in the best light. You cannot force someone to tell the truth.

I always figured CW had a domineering mother. Those men always look for a domineering wife. And normally it works out fine.

Off topic a bit but I own a popcorn and gourmet nut store. I am shocked how many people come in and then announce they are allergic to nuts. I always ask them to please leave. I have the nut warning on the front door!! They all decline and stay ughh. And most of them buy something even though I warn them not to. Makes me a nervous wreck.
 
  • #868
I think the DA only did it this way because this is what SW family wanted. I have watched other trials where part of the plea is they have to tell the truth about what happened in court--but they always lie and try to put themselves in the best light. You cannot force someone to tell the truth.

I always figured CW had a domineering mother. Those men always look for a domineering wife. And normally it works out fine.

Off topic a bit but I own a popcorn and gourmet nut store. I am shocked how many people come in and then announce they are allergic to nuts. I always ask them to please leave. I have the nut warning on the front door!! They all decline and stay ughh. And most of them buy something even though I warn them not to. Makes me a nervous wreck.
I'm not sure he thought she was domineering when they met. I have the impression she was at a very low point in her life and he built her up. Or she felt he did.
 
  • #869
K not sure what happened there lol but what I said was, that could not have been easy for her. Especially back then when we women had even less space to feel empowered. Your MIL is my kind of woman!

O/T but Thanks. Yes she is wonderful. I am divorced from her son and she is still very angry at him. Not me.

It was a different time then in the 60s. She had 8 kids in 7 years. All while her husband was cheating on her. Ugh.

Just to add too, her own parents took her to catholic family services so she would sign the first baby over for adoption and she refused to get out of the car! She is strong.
 
  • #870
O/T but Thanks. Yes she is wonderful. I am divorced from her son and she is still very angry at him. Not me.

It was a different time then in the 60s. She had 8 kids in 7 years. All while her husband was cheating on her. Ugh.

Just to add too, her own parents took her to catholic family services so she would sign the first baby over for adoption and she refused to get out of the car! She is strong.
Sounds like a very reasonable woman!
 
  • #871
O/T but Thanks. Yes she is wonderful. I am divorced from her son and she is still very angry at him. Not me.

It was a different time then in the 60s. She had 8 kids in 7 years. All while her husband was cheating on her. Ugh.

Just to add too, her own parents took her to catholic family services so she would sign the first baby over for adoption and she refused to get out of the car! She is strong.

Strong, unbiased AND an inspiration. You got lucky ...Happy for you. See you around!
 
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  • #872
Reading between the lines, I come away with the idea that the DA didn't learn a thing from the plea process, about CW, beyond what he had finally said in his confession after speaking with his father.
Which is why he said we can't believe anything CW says, because of all the false stories he told in the interviews and, IMO, all the lies he told to LE before the consultation with the father. And the lies, IMO, he told AFTER the consultation. And it seems like at the sentencing on the 19th we won't learn anything new either, nor will the DA.

This must seem obvious to some, I guess I'm slow. It seems weird to me that someone can get a plea accepted for so many murder counts without spilling the beans, so to speak, but that must be the legal system.
I think it was a wise decision to agree to the plea deal, and avoid wasting years and years trying to disprove CW’s sick and vicious lies. It’s so much better for all concerned. It’s not like CW is headed for Disneyland. Listening to CW admit “Guilty” 9 times between sobs had to be very satisfying. It’s over now, they’re off to a better life without having to include CW in their daily thoughts.
 
  • #873
I know I started the nut incident again, but that have been on my mind all along. I had a co worker who was extremely allergic to specific flowers, they were not allowed at work. One time we had a staff christmas dinner at a hotel and our boss called the hotel to make sure the red christmas flower were removed ( I have no idea what they are called in english). We went there and they forgot to take away one of those flowers. My co worker had an immidiate reaction with cardiac arrest, ambulance and resuscitation on hotel floor .

Thankfully she survived and after that I always ask a person if they have a epi pen if they say they have allergies just to be prepared if we are going to hang out. It was scary.
Probably Poinsettia. Most don't know how those Euphorbia can be so toxic to humans, and other animals, with that toxic latex. Lots of common garden succulents, even aside from Euphorbia, that we unthinkingly expose family members and pets to are potentially deadly. Even from just gardening with these plants, snipping off parts of them and then sticking your fingers in your mouth, watch out. On the other hand I've done it so many times without reaction that it probably just affects certain people. But I watch it with my dogs.

Sorry for the OT but it might save someone's life.
 
  • #874
I want to know why he thought his defence wouldn't succeed. I think it may be his disgusting disposal of the girls bodies and that he was able to raise a smile and a chuckle the next day.
 
  • #875
Speaking of mothers sticking up for their sons against all reason...my own MIL would take me aside during visits to tell me that her son, (my husband) had left a ring in the bathtub, ie I should do something about it. You just have to decide whether or not it's worth it to have them in your lives and ignore things you can't change.
 
  • #876
Speaking of mothers sticking up for their sons against all reason...my own MIL would take me aside during visits to tell me that her son, (my husband) had left a ring in the bathtub, ie I should do something about it. You just have to decide whether or not it's worth it to have them in your lives and ignore things you can't change.
Oh, I hear that.
 
  • #877
Because it is always a woman's fault. How many times have we seen men killing their child and the first comment is 'Where was the mother of this child?'

There were also those who were blaming AP for the murders. It appears to me that it is often WOMEN looking to blame other women. It’s unfortunate to say the least.
 
  • #878
Speaking of mothers sticking up for their sons against all reason...my own MIL would take me aside during visits to tell me that her son, (my husband) had left a ring in the bathtub, ie I should do something about it. You just have to decide whether or not it's worth it to have them in your lives and ignore things you can't change.
MIL’s can be a trip. My husband comes from an extremely tight family and for years she thought I needed to take a back seat. My MIL, his older brother , and his grandmother all came in town for the birth of our third, which was my 3rd c section in 3 years. She called me at the hospital the day I was to go home to be sure I had arranged for someone to stay with me because his 23 year old sister, who lived in the same city with us at the time, had a dermatologist appt that day to get something looked at (turned out it was not anything concerning) and they were all going with her and taking her to lunch. My husband needed to go to and support his sister, never mind he had a wife who had surgery and a new baby ‍♀️♀️. I have never had words with her, my husband handles it. I will not give her any ammunition to use against me and I think it bugs her I stay polite, lol.
 
  • #879
MIL’s can be a trip. My husband comes from an extremely tight family and for years she thought I needed to take a back seat. My MIL, his older brother , and his grandmother all came in town for the birth of our third, which was my 3rd c section in 3 years. She called me at the hospital the day I was to go home to be sure I had arranged for someone to stay with me because his 23 year old sister, who lived in the same city with us at the time, had a dermatologist appt that day to get something looked at (turned out it was not anything concerning) and they were all going with her and taking her to lunch. My husband needed to go to and support his sister, never mind he had a wife who had surgery and a new baby ‍♀️♀️. I have never had words with her, my husband handles it. I will not give her any ammunition to use against me and I think it bugs her I stay polite, lol.
I must be crazy, I was always super nice to my son's g/fs and his two wives. I just figured, things would work out better that way, y'know????! :)
 
  • #880
Well I'm totally using my imagination here so this is purely a 'what if', but counsellor's notes could indicate something like Shan'ann losing it with him during a session, or telling him he won't have child custody, if she hears of his affair/s for instance, to substantiate his claim at that time that she killed the girls in rage. It would be reasonable to assume she would be furious at him cheating and agreeing to have a third baby.

I guess I'm not sure what a pretrial motion is. I thought this was just a sealed filing of private health records related to his defence.

Pre trial motions are where they try to do things prior to trial like seal autopsy reports until trial, get info like asking the coroner to do certain tests. Etc.

At this stage it's not usually when they file what's called motions in limine to keep certain evidence out. That happens closer to trial.

There would be no reason to file a motion about such a session until closer to trial, I would think. Unless they were seeking to subpoena certain records but didn't want to have unsealed, HIPAA info that was communicated to them by CW that would support the subpoena?

I think they could just subpoena it without revealing anything though. Her mental health status became at issue when he claimed she went nuts and killed the kids.

I'm just not seeing any possibility.

All that stuff about his possible medical condition or whatever, that wouldn't come out publicly anyhow until trial and THAT's when they would file motions to keep certain evidence like that out, as more prejudicial than probative, for example, depending on what it is.

The timing of the motion supports what my law partner said. It was related to competency. Or an insanity defense.
 
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