GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #60

[BingoBongo]

Or a mixture. SP's mom didn't really spoil him. She annihilated his identity. Cindy Anthony was the same. But anyone who criticized her child in the outside world was refuted.

In the home any independent thought or feeling that doesn't mirror the feelings of the parent, is annihilated. But when people claim their kid did something wrong, it's aggressively denied.

That creates a manipulative person who feels they can get away with murder and a person motivated to do so because they're sometimes incapable of expressing any true emotion or appearing less than perfect, due to narcissistic panic of being unmasked. So they can't get a divorce or give up custody of a child. Etc.

IMO.

T H I S!!

 

[NuttMegg]

Thanks - @PiertotumLocomotor
I added the PDF/Discovery pages and also checking account dollar amounts below.

• Shanann made $65,000 - $70,000 as a Le-Vel promoter, about equal to what CW made. She had 200 people downline from her. The Lexus was paid for through a car allowance from Le-Vel. (PDF page 520, Discovery page 587)

• Lawsuit regarding HOA is about assessment, not annual dues.

• $10,000 was taken out of CW's 401K, which could only have been done with CW's approval. Shanann used to catch up on three months' worth of mortgage payments. Therefore they were current on their mortgage but CW said the next payment was due August 16 and they had $2000.00 in his checking account and approximately $1500.00 in their USAA checking account. (PDF page 529, Discovery page 596)

• The six week trip to NC was PLANNED. They went every year. It was not an indication of marriage difficulties. It was simply so that SW, BW and CW could spend time with the families and for SW to grow her business. SW would not be able to travel later on because of her pregnancy.

• CW is 5'8". He told LE he weighed 185 lbs. His driver's license stated 225 lbs.

• The handwritten letter was dated 8/6/18. It was in a sealed envelope which was in CW's mother's possession. It was supposedly given to CW's defense team and subsequently destroyed. LE did not hear anything about this letter until after sentencing.

• Shanann had paper bags on her hands placed there by LE to preserve evidence. (PDF page 891, Discovery page 1002)

• CW is currently at Denver Reception and Diagnostic Center. His inmate number is 182906.

• Many people are upset at NK because she willingly held a public interview which later directly contradicted facts found in discovery. (okay this one is a little subjective, but it would help to clarify that most aren't shaming her or holding her culpable for the murders and are just trying to hold her accountable with her discrepancies)

• NK was a contract employee. Anadarko terminated her contract, and her employer in turn fired her. (PDF page 618, Discovery page 697)

• Colorado is a right to hire state.

Was the car payment through Le-vel a monthly rental fee?

 

[gitana1]

I think what CW was was the EASY child...it was mentioned in the docs somewhere that JWW was the rebel, the troublemaker, and they probably had to devote much of their attention to her. Possibly CW sort of fell by the wayside in that regard, as they didn't have to pay him much mind. I bet they're wishing they had.

Yes.

 

[Seattle1]

This article gives a broad overview of Cluster B personality disorders. Our verified psychologist, @stereopticons is the best person to weigh in with an informed opinion of CW (either Chris or Cindy) and a possible fit with any of these PDs.

DSM-5: The Ten Personality Disorders: Cluster B

Welcome back! Hope you're feeling better @liltexans.

 

[BingoBongo]

Yes I admit I haven't been this curious into other "FA" cases before to know if this is a pattern but he just seems strange and contradictory to me. I do believe he did it, and I do believe he has a cog (well a whole case of cogs) loose but I don't know when or how that happened. I may have been totally projecting what would make sense to me and not what was true for him but I felt he seemed to get very emotional when his parents gave statements and it seems like he hates disappointing or looking bad to people?

My understanding is that most narcissism is shame based. If true, for him, that might explain the strong need to be "liked" and to "not look bad".

 

[bonjoviblonde]

I'm also curious about the 2:30 a.m. purchase. And how it was made - via phone or laptop. The only reference to it in the discovery documents was an email saying the purchase had been declined so I do still think it could have been an auto ship automatic charge or a product that had been backordered and was now back in stock so the charge went through. A lot of times those automatic charges hit overnight.

Ok, I just experienced this today. So weird! I've never been so excited to have a card declined before but I couldn't wait to get on here and tell you guys. Anyway, yesterday around 6pm I bought some shipping supplies on Amazon with my business credit card. I didn't realize it had expired October 31. So this morning around 10am I got an email from Amazon that my card was declined. It shocked me but then I figured out it was only because I needed to change the expiration date. It took about 15 hours from the time I ordered to the time I got the email telling me it was declined so I guess it's possible that Shanann did order hair products much earlier that day or even the day before maybe. It's also a good chance like someone else said it was something she had on an Amazon subscription. Either way, I think it's highly possible she wasn't for sure ordering hair products at 2am that night.

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't think we'll ever know for certain, but I personally think TB was sincere.
Contrary to reports, he wasn't paid for his interview with HLN.
He has shied away from the publicity, even after the sentencing and hasn't retracted anything he said.
His Twitter account now has this message: "And it all starts again, this whole thing it a **** show", so he's not looking for attention from all of this.

From pdf page 659, dis page 748:

SA CODER and I interviewed BOLTE inside a private, recorded interview room at the sheriff’s office. Please review SA CODER’s report for full details on the interview with BOLTE. During the interview, BOLTE indicated he had messages from CHRIS during the time they had known each other. I took screenshots of the messages, which are attached to this report.
​

I'm unable to see the discovery attachment of the text screenshots from TB.
Has anyone else been able to access those?

Yet the guy he was in rehab with, Fern, claimed that Bolte was always trying to get attention from everyone. The interviewer said he was confused as to why he was being questioned and when told about Bolte he laughed and said Bolte tends to do that since he also alleged a relationship with Fern.
He said Bolte runs around saying he has relationships with guys for attention. Fern never realized Bolte was gay until he discoverd Bolte was using his photos while talking to gay guys, pretending to be him. P. 742 Discover.
Sounds like a pretty shady character to me. Imo

 

[LovesChocolate]

BBM Initally, I thought he had killed the girls first and then had overtaken Shannon at the top of the stairs/loft area/sofa where her phone was found. However, after reading the document dump, the scenario you described makes the most sense to me. It connects some crucial dots, imo. Im still wondering if Shannan was on the sofa when he strangled her, though. He states that he put her "back in bed" - who knows if that's truth or fiction. I can see her laying down, not wanting to disturb anyone, taking off her watch, the pants she was wearing, laying her phone next to her on the sofa and falling asleep. If she was lying on one side, the sofa ( and a blanket if one was used) would limit any movement she could make. After killing her, he takes her "back to bed" and rolls her up in a sheet. I just don't think he was thinking about her phone or watch and hiding them.( He left everything else(suitcase, purse, keys, shoes) out and the beds messy and unmade). I also feel, that if he did kill the girls after Shannon, that Bella may have heard some grunting or commotion and walked out into the loft and saw what was going on. Just thinking outloud- I waffle back and forth on the different scenarios and premeditation factors coming into play. Brain freeze! MOO

Edited to follow up on the quote: I DO think he killed them all around the same time if the dogs were correct. They would have alerted elsewhere in the house (their beds) if they had been dead a while.

To me, this also explains how her phone got under the pillow of the couch. I have fallen asleep on the couch before and tucked the phone under the pillow I'm laying on, rather than putting on the floor. What I don't know, though, is how her phone got turned off. At first I thought maybe the battery had died but there was no mention in Discovery of LE needing to charge it before turning it back on ; seems they were able to power it up as soon as CW handed it over.

 

[Check21]

Going to jump in here late with my theory. I have been following along and read the Discovery.

I believe their "emotional conversation" took place when he got up at 4am to go to work. I believe CW previously told SW that he would attend her appointment. SW would have been upset to know that he was going to work. He then choked her while she was still in bed. In an effort to cover his tracks and get to work he had to do something with the girls because their caretaker was now dead. I think killing the girls was an after thought. However, i will never understand how he could speak about them the next day as emotionless as he did knowing what he did to them.

Additionally, saw someone touch on this once but not mentioned again. I guess in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter but i want to know what he did with Deeter while he was gone on weekend trips and overnight visits. I can only picture poor Deeter being locked in a cage for 3 days with no food or water and no where to potty.

 

[gitana1]

@gitana1 I have one more question (at the moment) if you please. Now that it’s over, are the Defense Attorneys permitted to speak freely about the case? To reveal private conversations they had with CW? Including the decision making processes that led to the Plea Deal? What CW said? If he ever actually confessed? If he gave a detailed description of everything that happened as it went down?

Nooooo. Never. Unless he signed a release.

 

[gitana1]

I sensed shame. No guilt. No remorse. JMO.

Makes sense.

 

[MassGuy]

Yet the guy he was in rehab with, Fern, claimed that Bolte was always trying to get attention from everyone. The interviewer said he was confused as to why he was being questioned and when told about Bolte he laughed and said Bolte tends to do that since he also alleged a relationship with Fern.
He said Bolte runs around saying he has relationships with guys for attention. Fern never realized Bolte was gay until he discoverd Bolte was using his photos while talking to gay guys, pretending to be him. P. 742 Discover.
Sounds like a pretty shady character to me. Imo

Very shady sounding. He did provide LE with screenshots of text communications supposedly between him and CW though.

Nothing was found on CW’s phone, but the same thing happened with texts between him and Shanann.

Fortunately her phone filled in the blanks in regards to what he deleted. It’s posible that it was the same situation with Bolte.

It doesn’t sound like this issue has been resolved.

 

[gitana1]

I remember that. I think that was @Best of What's Around
I've dug out the posts I think you're referring to:
Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #24

Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #24

Yes!!! No wonder! Best really is the best! Super smart.

 

[mrjitty]

Exactly. And caveat: I don't know if he's a sociopath or psychopath. Probably a narcissist.

A particularly intelligent poster though, early on, challenged my notion that he probably was one of those things. She pointed out how he doesn't fit the criteria really for NPD or APD.

I am completely unqualified, but read a lot about this because of an unfortunate predicament with my own sociopath.

As I am not a psychologist, I did not find it that helpful to categorise my own mild sociopath exactly. Rather to recognise the kinds of behaviours.

IMO CW doesn't show the typical signs of NPD. Indeed the complete opposite. People describe him as quiet, withdrawn etc.

He is also not your typical abusive personality yet it is clear he was abusive IMO - just very carefully hidden.

I think what is very revealing is the impulsive risk taking, without rational assessment of consequences.

Also his lack of awareness as to his own behaviour, and belief that people would be taken in by his nonsense.

So overall I'd guess he is closer to the APD zone - but he is someone that concealed his nature for a long time.

I do guarantee you there is strange crap in his childhood or teenage years - but likely hidden or never discovered.

 

[wyldcynic]

To me, this also explains how her phone got under the pillow of the couch. I have fallen asleep on the couch before and tucked the phone under the pillow I'm laying on, rather than putting on the floor. What I don't know, though, is how her phone got turned off. At first I thought maybe the battery had died but there was no mention in Discovery of LE needing to charge it before turning it back on ; seems they were able to power it up as soon as CW handed it over.

I read somewhere in the doc that SW's phone was not dead - it still had like 50% battery life when it was turned back on. And I would find it hard to believe that she would be one to completely close down her phone at night. I still suspect he grabbed her phone from her nightstand, powered it completely down, and hid it so if anything went wrong she could not find it to call for help. MOO

 

[Deleted member 182072]

Yet the guy he was in rehab with, Fern, claimed that Bolte was always trying to get attention from everyone. The interviewer said he was confused as to why he was being questioned and when told about Bolte he laughed and said Bolte tends to do that since he also alleged a relationship with Fern.
He said Bolte runs around saying he has relationships with guys for attention. Fern never realized Bolte was gay until he discoverd Bolte was using his photos while talking to gay guys, pretending to be him. P. 742 Discover.
Sounds like a pretty shady character to me. Imo

Yes, but TB doesn't seem to want any attention from the Watts case at the moment.
It's possible that a guy who doesn't want to be outed himself would have an incentive to discredit TB, especially since TB was a male escort. JMO

 

[MassGuy]

I read somewhere in the doc that SW's phone was not dead - it still had like 50% battery life when it was turned back on. And I would find it hard to believe that she would be one to completely close down her phone at night. I still suspect he grabbed her phone from her nightstand, powered it completely down, and hid it so if anything went wrong she could not find it to call for help. MOO

I do think he powered it down, but I don’t think he took any precautionary measures in regards to inhibiting her ability to call for help.

I think he powered it down so he could sell his story that she took the kids and split.

Phones have location tracking ability, so powering it down would add to the murkiness of where she was.

 

[Tuliptiptoe]

This is helpful regarding emotions

Can Narcissists, Sociopaths, and Psychopaths Feel Empathy, Sadness, or Remorse?

 

[gitana1]

Yes I admit I haven't been this curious into other "FA" cases before to know if this is a pattern but he just seems strange and contradictory to me. I do believe he did it, and I do believe he has a cog (well a whole case of cogs) loose but I don't know when or how that happened. I may have been totally projecting what would make sense to me and not what was true for him but I felt he seemed to get very emotional when his parents gave statements and it seems like he hates disappointing or looking bad to people?

(This is not defending or praising him) Like it's just weird to me. It seems like all through interviews he doesn't want to look bad or for his coworkers to have to get involved. I wonder if he was at some point where he was absolutely going to disappoint someone and in his mind he was just going to make his family disappear to fix that problem. (Which yes I know is sick and makes no sense!)

I would actually be more surprised if he did this in an upfront confronting way of showing Shanann the dead kids before killing her verses trying to sneak up and kill her and maybe them from behind or with faces covered so they weren't seeing him, so in his odd mind he could never have to totally face what he was doing if no one else "knew"? It's still horrible horrible either way, but I hope she never had to see or know about the girls before, so I may just want to believe it happened that way.

That matches with a narcissist I think. Many project this aura of confidence but inside they're actually deeply insecure and constantly need praise and validation. They can't handle any criticism or being seen as less than. It panics them.

Most of us are familiar though with the narcissist who becomes enraged easily, displays a constant and marked lack of empathy and bras about themselves a lot. I don't see any of those traits with CW.

I think he, like other family annihilators, might be a unique combination of psych defects.

 

[MsBetsy]

Going to jump in here late with my theory. I have been following along and read the Discovery.

I believe their "emotional conversation" took place when he got up at 4am to go to work. I believe CW previously told SW that he would attend her appointment. SW would have been upset to know that he was going to work. He then choked her while she was still in bed. In an effort to cover his tracks and get to work he had to do something with the girls because their caretaker was now dead. I think killing the girls was an after thought. However, i will never understand how he could speak about them the next day as emotionless as he did knowing what he did to them.

Additionally, saw someone touch on this once but not mentioned again. I guess in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter but i want to know what he did with Deeter while he was gone on weekend trips and overnight visits. I can only picture poor Deeter being locked in a cage for 3 days with no food or water and no where to potty.

I don't believe they had an emotional conversation at all for the reasons I stated yesterday. He was asked over and over to go through the conversation with LE and all he did was repeat the details of their previous text messages together. I think he killed them all starting at 4:00, and then promptly removed them from the house. I think he fully intended to kill the children. I had always thought he killed the children first but now because of the dogs not indicating much I think he did it all at the same time. I also think having the girls dead in their beds for any period of time would have spooked him. I think he wanted to get them out quickly after killing them. Jmo