GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #60

[mrjitty]

This is helpful regarding emotions

Can Narcissists, Sociopaths, and Psychopaths Feel Empathy, Sadness, or Remorse?

This is great.

 

[gitana1]

This is helpful regarding emotions

Can Narcissists, Sociopaths, and Psychopaths Feel Empathy, Sadness, or Remorse?

Great article! Some key parts:

"Again, empathy and capacity for attachment play a vital role here. While some perpetrators, especially on the milder side of the spectrum, can feel various degrees of remorse, generally if a person severely lacks empathy, then they don’t feel compassion necessary to feel remorse. Especially if they are experts of rationalizing their dysfunctional behavior (“they deserve it,” “I’m right and they’re wrong,” “social rules don’t apply to me”).

A person feels empathy to the degree that they see others as people. And most narcissists, sociopaths, and especially psychopaths have severe problems perceiving others as people, empathizing with them, or feeling attachment. Such a person is severely detached from their inner world, so a lack of self-empathy results in a lack of empathy for others. This is one of the main reasons why they are unable to build or sustain real, healthy relationships outside of self-benefit.

However, sometimes people like that can feel emotionally bonded with a specific person. It’s not a healthy bond but a bond nonetheless, whether because they need them for something or they look up to them or share similar values. Consequently, they can feel some remorse and saddness when hurting them or losing them. However, usually there is no remorse for hurting a regular person because they see them as objects that only exist to serve their needs, not as people and sometimes not even as human."

There's much more at the end about sadness and it's super interesting in relation to this case but I don't want to blow the copyright rule!!

 

[mrjitty]

I don't believe they had an emotional conversation at all for the reasons I stated yesterday. He was asked over and over to go through the conversation with LE and all he did was repeat the details of their previous text messages together. I think he killed them all starting at 4:00, and then promptly removed them from the house. I think he fully intended to kill the children. I had always thought he killed the children first but now because of the dogs not indicating much I think he did it all at the same time. I also think having the girls dead in their beds for any period of time would have spooked him. I think he wanted to get them out quickly after killing them. Jmo

Agreed.

The use of the word "emotional" is revealing. But the use of the word "conversation" is like bad script writing. No one says that.

But I think he experienced emotions.

 

[Mellowmelly]

I don't think we'll ever know for certain, but I personally think TB was sincere.
Contrary to reports, he wasn't paid for his interview with HLN.
He has shied away from the publicity, even after the sentencing and hasn't retracted anything he said.
His Twitter account now has this message: "And it all starts again, this whole thing it a **** show", so he's not looking for attention from all of this.

From pdf page 659, dis page 748:

SA CODER and I interviewed BOLTE inside a private, recorded interview room at the sheriff’s office. Please review SA CODER’s report for full details on the interview with BOLTE. During the interview, BOLTE indicated he had messages from CHRIS during the time they had known each other. I took screenshots of the messages, which are attached to this report.
​

I'm unable to see the discovery attachment of the text screenshots from TB.
Has anyone else been able to access those?

Well it reminds me of that saying “there’s no smoke without fire” I have questioned why a random stranger would make up a story like that. Maybe there is some truth to it. I couldn’t access the screenshots either.

 

[mrjitty]

Well it reminds me of that saying “there’s no smoke without fire” I have questioned why a random stranger would make up a story like that. Maybe there is some truth to it. I couldn’t access the screenshots either.

I think it's pretty obvious CW was cheating on SW for years.

There is a whole aspect there that I guess the investigation could not get up on - e.g. Tinder, habits etc

 

[MassGuy]

Well it reminds me of that saying “there’s no smoke without fire” I have questioned why a random stranger would make up a story like that. Maybe there is some truth to it. I couldn’t access the screenshots either.

They very well could be included in the data release. I expect them to be in there.

 

[UKslueth2018]

Here. It is long but good.

Written by a woman on QUORA. The first answer that (ironically) came up when I put “the question that Chris Watts ought to have asked” (from my previous post) into Google. This woman, the author, is married to a malignant narcissist. Bottom line - NK might have not been the biggest love of a malignant narcissist, CW. She merely was the new “Supply” (see below). She surely would not have been the last one. She is very lucky to be alive.


“First stage…Love Bomb this usually starts with an infraction the Narc either senses or the result of something that happened to make Him/her feel insecure. I am perfect again. I notice him asking for more opinions, saying nice things about me, and doing extra things for me. It might even include some 1/2 a$$ed apology. Not a full apology because a NPD IS perfect…This cycle runs 5–7 days. I find this stage lasts longer if a “new” Supply has rejected him.

In this cycle I try and compliment him when I see him doing good. I try and build him up. ( of course, I realize that he is an empty hole that can’t be filled.) During this stage I do pick up many tidbits of information that comes at me sideways. For instance, out of the Blue, MY NPD husband said, “Men are All dogs , they will have sex with anyone.” Start listening closer and see what You will find out that You didn’t know.

Second Stage Devaluing Sage…This is the stage where I am a piece of ****, My family is a piece of ****, I can do no right. I am gaslighted, triangulated and The devaluation slips in slowly until I am getting a full blown case. This cycle also lasts about a week. Since NPD’s mirror what they see and don’t like about themselves this is the stage to actually listen to what the NPD is saying. You then find out what they are thinking about themselves. During this stage I will sprinkle some corrections to his lies. Notice I said “sprinkle”… I never start a full blown fight. that just gets me all upset and achieves nothing. I never fight because anytime an argument can and sometimes will turn into a rage.

New Content ( added AU 201…I also find that this is probably a time when My NPD is trying to hook in a new Supply. He is devaluing me so he does “NOT feel guilty” for what he is doing or intends on doing. It gives him many excuses to do what he knows is wrong. When I hear the tirades they seem like lists and more times than not He is actually mirroring HIs faults. I can listen to this and realize what he really “knows” his faults are. Since His value is determined by a New “better”Supply, he feels real good about himself.

Third stage Discard stage. This is the stage where My NPD husband starts to rage, He starts feeling entitled, He starts to brainwash me, spreading bad rumors around about me etc. He has discarded me mentally but he has NOT discarded me physically. I especially see this stage when NPD has a new “playmate” and is hiding that. I think he uses the discard stage to feel guilt free to continue with his playmate. This stage can last for quite a while. Sometimes during this stage I will agree with him on his assessment of me. “Yes, I am a piece of crap, You should leave me” Since I babysit for My daughter and live at her house part time that is when I usually leave. when I get back NPD realizes he crossed a line and is back to stage #1.

If You can learn to identify these stages as they are coming, You will know that You have some peace in the first stage and some of the second stage. If Your husband is a cheater, then You will notice how his moods change depending on his love interests. When he has been discarded himself by his new love interest then he falls back into stage one or two. The cycle times will change with each individual.”

I cannot imagine living like that... Surely it would be better to be alone.. Love is certainly complex!!

 

[MsBetsy]

I read somewhere in the doc that SW's phone was not dead - it still had like 50% battery life when it was turned back on. And I would find it hard to believe that she would be one to completely close down her phone at night. I still suspect he grabbed her phone from her nightstand, powered it completely down, and hid it so if anything went wrong she could not find it to call for help. MOO

Maybe. Originally I thought it meant that he killed her before she had a chance to put it on the charger that night. I also had thought that he hid it there when he first ran through the house before LE looked around. But maybe he did hide it from her. I don't know how to power a phone down. Maybe he originally planned to stage messages from her. Or just take out the battery and get rid of it. We will probably never know. Imo

 

[MassGuy]

I think it's pretty obvious CW was cheating on SW for years.

There is a whole aspect there that I guess the investigation could not get up on - e.g. Tinder, habits etc

I’m not sure about this. I think his cheating coincided with the physical changes he went through.

My guess, and it is just a guess, is that he had a newfound sense of confidence after his weight loss. I think that around this time, he would have begun his Tinder hookups.

 

[TxMother67]

To me, this also explains how her phone got under the pillow of the couch. I have fallen asleep on the couch before and tucked the phone under the pillow I'm laying on, rather than putting on the floor. What I don't know, though, is how her phone got turned off. At first I thought maybe the battery had died but there was no mention in Discovery of LE needing to charge it before turning it back on ; seems they were able to power it up as soon as CW handed it over.

Being as exhausted and heartbroken as her friends described her, do you think she may have just turned the phone off? She knew she would hear Chris get up/asked him to wake her up? Everyone was saying she just wasn't herself. I'm sure she would never turn her phone off at night, but she knew she was only going to get a couple of hours of sleep. Also, a phone buzzing and vibrating, may have been enough to wake Bella? I wonder if we will ever know!??!!!

Edited to add additional thought: Why would he turn the phone off and not delete messages? I don't think he had time to think of any of that. He was completely expecting to come home after work, clean up/stage the scene and start playing out his role in the "My family is Missing" saga. Thankfully, the fact that Shannon wasn't answering alerted her friends quickly that morning.

 

[DexterMorgan]

To me, this also explains how her phone got under the pillow of the couch. I have fallen asleep on the couch before and tucked the phone under the pillow I'm laying on, rather than putting on the floor. What I don't know, though, is how her phone got turned off. At first I thought maybe the battery had died but there was no mention in Discovery of LE needing to charge it before turning it back on ; seems they were able to power it up as soon as CW handed it over.

Nicole new the password for the phone and CW didn’t or he played dumb for the cops.

Either way. CW brought the phone to the cop and said here. I just found this in the couch. The cop asked to check and he said cool but its password protected.

Then Nicole was like bam. Here is the 4 numerical passcode.

 

[MsBetsy]

Agreed.

The use of the word "emotional" is revealing. But the use of the word "conversation" is like bad script writing. No one says that.

But I think he experienced emotions.

Yes, I do too. But only when it pertained to himself. He also kept using the word "disconnect" and another weird word that I can't remember, but it sounded like he was talking about an engine or a car or something
I tried to find it again but I can't. Anyway it's not a typical word that one would use when describing a relationship.

 

[The Farm]

I’m not sure about this. I think his cheating coincided with the physical changes he went through.

My guess, and it is just a guess, is that he had a newfound sense of confidence after his weight loss. I think that around this time, he would have begun his Tinder hookups.

I have seen this mentioned a few times and I agree MassGuy with your summarization.

His present life also had become drudgery and he wanted the new life that to him was much more appealing than the family life with three kids. He was all done with that, he tried it and did not like it.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Yet the guy he was in rehab with, Fern, claimed that Bolte was always trying to get attention from everyone. The interviewer said he was confused as to why he was being questioned and when told about Bolte he laughed and said Bolte tends to do that since he also alleged a relationship with Fern.
He said Bolte runs around saying he has relationships with guys for attention. Fern never realized Bolte was gay until he discoverd Bolte was using his photos while talking to gay guys, pretending to be him. P. 742 Discover.
Sounds like a pretty shady character to me. Imo

In the docs it does state that no communication from CW to Bolte was found, but does it say anywhere what LE found on Bolte's phone? IIRC he got his 15 minutes of fame on the AB show after he showed them messages back and forth from CW. If they were real......

 

[BingoBongo]

I am completely unqualified, but read a lot about this because of an unfortunate predicament with my own sociopath.

As I am not a psychologist, I did not find it that helpful to categorise my own mild sociopath exactly. Rather to recognise the kinds of behaviours.

IMO CW doesn't show the typical signs of NPD. Indeed the complete opposite. People describe him as quiet, withdrawn etc.

He is also not your typical abusive personality yet it is clear he was abusive IMO - just very carefully hidden.

I think what is very revealing is the impulsive risk taking, without rational assessment of consequences.

Also his lack of awareness as to his own behaviour, and belief that people would be taken in by his nonsense.

So overall I'd guess he is closer to the APD zone - but he is someone that concealed his nature for a long time.

I do guarantee you there is strange crap in his childhood or teenage years - but likely hidden or never discovered.

NPD manifests itself in several different flavors. Not all those diagnosed with NPD are abrasive (or at least outwardly so).

He may be a "closet", or "covert" narc, including being passive-agressive.

 

[MassGuy]

Nicole new the password for the phone and CW didn’t or he played dumb for the cops.

Either way. CW brought the phone to the cop and said here. I just found this in the couch. The cop asked to check and said cool but its password protected.

Then Nicole was like bam. Here is the 4 numerical passcode.

I’m pretty sure that he wanted to say some things that I can’t repeat here, and maybe more.

Poor CW.

 

[The Farm]

Nicole new the password for the phone and CW didn’t or he played dumb for the cops.

Either way. CW brought the phone to the cop and said here. I just found this in the couch. The cop asked to check and he said cool but its password protected.

Then Nicole was like bam. Here is the 4 numerical passcode.

I thought in the docs is said that Nicole's son found the phone in the couch?

 

[BingoBongo]

Narcism is like Trump - if you want an obvious public figure.

IMO CW is nothing like that.

CW clearly lies constantly to everyone, but the sociopath will also do this.

Narcissism is much more complicated many realize. And, I believe, most big political figures are narcs to some degree. Really, we all all...but like any personality trait, narcissism falls along a spectrum from normal and healthy (self-love) to malignant and dangerous.

CW need not be "like Trump" to be a narcissist.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I thought in the docs is said that Nicole's son found the phone in the couch?

I think CW first found the wedding ring on the night stand and gave it to the cop.

And then the phone.

But I don't know for sure.

 

[BingoBongo]

Well it reminds me of that saying “there’s no smoke without fire” I have questioned why a random stranger would make up a story like that. Maybe there is some truth to it. I couldn’t access the screenshots either.

Mental health issues. Based on texts of his that were made public (not sure if they are anymore), photos of him, claims he made and more...the guy has serious issues.