GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #64

[Jennifer17]

I think the question is, why do you want to? Why do you want point out flaws in an innocent victim of murder? We all have flaws. You do, I do. So what? SW was clearly a well loved, loving, caring, and decent person. Many many many people attest to that.

There is huge sensitivity here on the forums after 40-something threads of victim bashing. People just want to give her a break already. Let her rest in peace.

I totally agree.

 

[BingoBongo]

Colorado has strong open records laws. The DA was obligated to release this material.

I know, but still, I think it may end up being counterproductive over time. Seems to me it would be better to make that info. readily available if someone (media, etc.) requests it. But to put it all on-line, like I said, seems counterproductive in the long term.

As much as I would ALWAYS make myself available to LE as a witness, etc. to any crime...I'd really be alarmed about my personal info. being made available to any screwball (none of us of us are of course ) who might be nosy.

As an example, what if someone innocent person witnesses a gang crime. That could get ugly if their texts, phone #, etc. were released to the general public.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

by her own admission, SW had control issues ( see discovery document pg 2114).

Well the fact they disparage her every time they open their mouths speaks loudly. Shannan,Bella,CeCe,and Niko are dead,by their sons hands.
It's disgusting,and offensive.

 

[bonjoviblonde]

I guess some don't see the purpose in talking about Shanann's faults or perceived faults or personality flaws now. I agree with whoever said why does it even matter? She didn't "do" anything to warrant being murdered no matter how controlling she was or how much money she spent or how many times Chris wiped down the counters as opposed to her. So why does it matter if she had OCD or spent too much time on her phone for work? She's dead. Her husband killed her. He also killed his children and they most certainly didn't do anything to warrant being murdered by their father. I realize no one has said Shannan deserved to be murdered but why the continued need to question her medical issues, her spending habits, her housework habits, etc. We know for a fact now she didn't murder her children. She was murdered. For No Reason. It just feels icky to me. JMO. It feels like some people will not let her rest in peace.

 

[JerseyWasHome2]

Not sure how old pea brain really thought he could get into an apartment any time soon to begin with. I doubt he had a deposit and first month's rent that is usually required, his credit sucked thanks to the bankruptcy and his name was the only one on the big mortgage. His debt to income would have been off the charts with that mortgage alone.

I think he realized he wasn't going to be able to get an apartment. I think he was very motivated to make it appear to NK that the divorce or separation was almost a done deal. He was months out from being able to do anything on his own, as a bachelor, and that's only "if" Shanann's health held out through her pregnancy and she was able to continue to work and earn money and they sold the house for a profit. And if she was completely cooperative and gave him everything he wanted and the judge agreed to that.

Family court would have been in the near future and he would have been exposed in court as a man who cheated on his pregnant wife and two little girls. He was not coming out of a divorce in good shape at all. He didn't even have his own car. He was driving a work truck with very limited personal use. Technically, he would have had to hoof it for his personal activities unless someone offered to be his personal taxi or try to qualify for a loan for a car.

JMO.

ETA: His credit had to be hideous. He not only had a bankruptcy in 2015, he talked about a 401K loan that was needed to catch up on three months in house payments. His name alone was on that mortgage. That would have had a devastating impact on his credit, even if he had started to rebuild after the bankruptcy.

All good points. In the ~2000 pg doc there were comments from NK to him suggesting he open a new private checking account and save a tiny bit each month toward the deposit. That'd take forever and he probably knew it. And no car! Great point. Plus child support? His salary "may have" supported a small apartment in an inexpensive area (if there are any out there) but not combined with child support and a car payment and such.

 

[BingoBongo]

Yes, that, too! For sure. Blacking out their address and phone numbers won't be enough to make folks feel comfortable. I was relieved there were no autopsy photos as I was scrolling through.

I think I recall hearing some folks phone numbers being repeated during the videos in interviews.

 

[MassGuy]

I know, but still, I think it may end up being counterproductive over time. Seems to me it would be better to make that info. readily available if someone (media, etc.) requests it. But to put it all on-line, like I said, seems counterproductive in the long term.

As much as I would ALWAYS make myself available to LE as a witness, etc. to any crime...I'd really be alarmed about my personal info. being made available to any screwball (none of us of us are of course ) who might be nosy.

As an example, what if someone innocent person witnesses a gang crime. That could get ugly if their texts, phone #, etc. were released to the general public.

There are always efforts taken to protect witnesses in regards to gang crimes. They are hard enough to come by, and their safety is invariably at risk.

No one was out at direct risk here, although there were some embarrassing things in there.

They didn’t release these things to the general public, they released them to relevant organizations who made requests.

The law is the law, and they were compelled to oblige.

 

[BingoBongo]

We should be reluctant to be concerned with our country’s freedom of information laws. They are a bedrock of our general principles of freedom. There are plenty of places across the world that do not have these benefits and the governments of those places can be and are very secretive about things that the public should have a right to know.

NK may be mortified that her personal info is out there for the world to see. She should be happy she only wasted a few weeks of her life on this trash excuse for a man and survived to talk about it. Her life could have turned out far different and much worse.

Freedom of Information laws, IMO, should not mean releasing a witnesses phone number. Nor a victims death photos. Nor the horrific autopsy of a child. Etc.

 

[scdiv]

She had her big son with her and good on her for that, him too.

Her son was another awesome junior detective. He was right at CW's heels going around the house, filling the neighbor in on what was going on, not missing a beat. It was fantastic! NUA and her son, Nate the neighbor, and also her friend Christina in Hawaii, also helped the police sense immediately that something was off here and escalate things very, very quickly. No 24 hour missing person's report, let's see if she shows up.

This crew knew SW's habits, CW's routines, they knew so many nuances to keep saying no, this is not right. No that latch is never locked. No he never goes out through the garage. No she never leaves without her phone. No he never backs his truck in like that. No he never unloads his tools like that. No she would never leave without CeCe's epipen. And suddenly the CBI was there and choppers and CW was toast.

 

[riolove77]

I know, but still, I think it may end up being counterproductive over time. Seems to me it would be better to make that info. readily available if someone (media, etc.) requests it. But to put it all on-line, like I said, seems counterproductive in the long term.

As much as I would ALWAYS make myself available to LE as a witness, etc. to any crime...I'd really be alarmed about my personal info. being made available to any screwball (none of us of us are of course ) who might be nosy.

As an example, what if someone innocent person witnesses a gang crime. That could get ugly if their texts, phone #, etc. were released to the general public.

I've worked gang cases and I can assure you that gang witnesses are afforded high levels of protection. Totally different case than an FA's illicit lover or various acquaintances who were interviewed.

I get where the concern is for these people, but ultimately, our criminal justice system goes hand in hand with our freedom of information protections. In this situation, most of the birthdates and other identifying info were redacted, though it appears a few may have been missed. And plenty more of the "raunchy" info NK was worried about being released would have come out at trial. She should consider herself lucky it's over.

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if the cops hadn’t shown up first if CW might have killed NUA, too. He was on a murdering rampage, and at that point all he cared about was not getting caught.

No that's not his MO. He works in the dark when his victims are fast asleep and defenseless. Plus she had her son with her and the neighbors were milling about. The next door neighbor had already checked his camera footage before CW got home.

 

[riolove77]

Freedom of Information laws, IMO, should not mean releasing a witnesses phone number. Nor a victims death photos. Nor the horrific autopsy of a child. Etc.

Then you'd have to advocate for a change in law.

 

[Hazelnutty]

I wonder if the cops hadn’t shown up first if CW might have killed NUA, too. He was on a murdering rampage, and at that point all he cared about was not getting caught.

That is a scary thought, had she been alone. But, she had her little daughter and a big, tall , strong- looking son that were there , too. Thank goodness for her being there & bringing someone with her.

 

[bonjoviblonde]

Her son was another awesome junior detective. He was right at CW's heels going around the house, filling the neighbor in on what was going on, not missing a beat. It was fantastic! NUA and her son, Nate the neighbor, and also her friend Christina in Hawaii, also helped the police sense immediately that something was off here and escalate things very, very quickly. No 24 hour missing person's report, let's see if she shows up.

This crew knew SW's habits, CW's routines, they knew so many nuances to keep saying no, this is not right. No that latch is never locked. No he never goes out through the garage. No she never leaves without her phone. No he never backs his truck in like that. No he never unloads his tools like that. No she would never leave without CeCe's epipen. And suddenly the CBI was there and choppers and CW was toast.

I wish this had never happened but yes, seeing these people come together and seeing the murderer go down before our very eyes was satisfying. I applaud all of them.

 

[BingoBongo]

Not redacting their address and phone numbers was likely a mistake.

All one needs is a name, and that information is readily available in seconds though.

Not mine. There are people in the world who go to some length to keep their private data, private. For a variety of reasons. A person would be hard pressed by find my addy and phone number, even if they paid a service for it.

If CO (or any State) insists on having laws that allow LE (or anyone else in gov't.) to perform "data dumps" of any nature, they'd better go to great lengths not to make "mistakes" like not omitting identifying data.

 

[Gardener1850]

I don't think she was afraid of him at all. I think she was furious and disgusted by him. She doesn't strike me as being easily intimidated. Imo

I agree, I'm sure she felt anger and disgust too. I was mainly talking about that moment when she moved her hand away from the phone as CW raised his hand over hers. I may be biased though as I have experience observing victims of abuse and that is how they react when someone raises a hand-- quickly withdrawing/flinching out of fear. It's a reflex. Regardless, my point is the same-- NUA's love for her friend was stronger than any other emotion she felt that day. She did the right thing. Her character shines through. She is the definition of a hero in my book.

 

[PommyMommy]

But releasing and then publishing on an online source are 2 different things to me. I've seen this 2000~ page doc now on 2 sites. One is on "scribd.com" by a Matt Sebastian. Never heard of either the site, or Matt, and there are videos on YouTube and countless other sites. Unless I've missed it, it doesn't appear that we're all viewing these files on an official Colorado law site, or are they there, too? Is this the first time a major case like this has become so accessible in entirety to the public after it was considered closed?

We are able to view them because the media and others filed record requests. FAQ's about CORA here: Colorado Open Records Act (CORA)

What is CORA?
"CORA" stands for "Colorado Open Records Act". In the spirit of open government, the Colorado Open Records Act [1] requires that most public records be available to the public. Anyone can request information that is in the possession of a government office, including the Secretary of State’s office.

Where do I submit my records request?
You must submit your request to the custodian of the record- the government office that actually holds the record itself. There is no central repository for public records or single office that fulfills public records requests in Colorado. For most governmental agencies, you can submit your request directly to the Public Information Officer of that agency. If you don’t know how to contact that person, call the government entity and ask how to submit your request.

 

[MassGuy]

Not mine. There are people in the world who go to some length to keep their private data, private. For a variety of reasons. A person would be hard pressed by find my addy and phone number, even if they paid a service for it.

If CO (or any State) insists on having laws that allow LE (or anyone else in gov't.) to perform "data dumps" of any nature, they'd better go to great lengths not to make "mistakes" like not omitting identifying data.

In the US, phone numbers and addresses are easily found in the public domain, even if one has taken measures to conceal this information.

One does not have to pay for this information, as it draws from numerous public databases.

I agree though, they certainly missed some redactions.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

The irony of it all !

Indeed. His parents say Shannan was very Controlling. What fun he's going to have with all the prison personnel controlling his every,waking,sleeping moment.

 

[BingoBongo]

I've worked gang cases and I can assure you that gang witnesses are afforded high levels of protection. Totally different case than an FA's illicit lover or various acquaintances who were interviewed.

I get where the concern is for these people, but ultimately, our criminal justice system goes hand in hand with our freedom of information protections. In this situation, most of the birthdates and other identifying info were redacted, though it appears a few may have been missed. And plenty more of the "raunchy" info NK was worried about being released would have come out at trial. She should consider herself lucky it's over.

Not wanting to turn this into a back and forth, but I, as a private citizen, am very concerned about what has been released in this case. I understand that CO is just obeying the law of that State. Maybe the law should be changed?

My concern isn't necessarily for NK, many of my other posts will show that she is not someone I admire. My concern is for all the other cases that incl. "data dumps" and the many witnesses who have been, or will be, shocked at the fact that they have become notorious, at least to some.

Again - I fear this law will end up causing reluctance by many who will think twice before coming forward with valuable informantion. PARTICULARLY when we see/hear, in one of NK's LE interview video's she is being assured by LE that they are not interested in her sexy texts and photos. And yet all that showed up on line.

One other thing, I am not completely clear on the FoI laws...but it would seem to me the freedom to OBTAIN that info. isn't destroyed if the ability to BROADCAST that info. is reducted. IE, media, etc. can ASK and OBTAIN freely...but data dumps don't need to happen.