GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #64

[opalonyx]

I am baffled at how many times I see people say CW looked like a loving father in SW's videos. He looked like their father, yes, and a caretaker, but I feel a lack of warmth? A lack of connection?

I noticed the most contact he shared with them was through rough housing or being carried. I see Shanann in many instances hugging the children tight, holding their hands, cuddling them, nuzzling them. I can feel the connection much more in their interactions.

CW's interactions feel a lot more hollow to me. I was observing my husband with our toddler today and their sweet little moments together and I never saw that same kind of tenderness in any videos of CW. Even looking at pics of SW's dad and brother with the kids, I sense more of a bond there.

Of course I have a different perspective of CW after knowing what he's done, but it was just something I've been thinking about. I see someone who went through the motions. I see a narcissist who loved the kids when they fed his ego but discarded them when they bruised his ego.

His relationships are shallow and about what they make him feel. He wants mirrors to reflect his greatness back at him. No one is a complex human to him. Maybe I'm being over analytical, but even in his cards to NK, he is talking about the feelings she gives him. He doesn't ever really compliment her as a person.

Just some pondering.

 

[mrjitty]

I guess we could call it psycho-stupid! Good term.

I found this aspect fascinating in dealing with a sociopath.

On the one hand they were an extremely sophisticated manipulator. But on the other hand, they are just so stupid - like really stupid.

It's like an amazing contradiction.

So after huge difficulty I would put together a win/win deal - but sociopath rejects it, causing financial loss to themselves.

It took me a long time to understand this is because their motivations are not rational.

Hence they frequently self harm and do things that anyone else would regard as an epic fail

 

[Check21]

There is a 5 minute video on the State of Colorado vs Chris Watts facebook page that i have not seen yet. It is the neighbor talking to the police, NUA and her son. In it he said that when SW was in NC there were many times that both vehicles the Watt's drove were parked on the street. He said the Lexus was parked down the road for several days in a row. Makes me think that NK was parked in the garage and they played house while his family was in NC.

 

[mrjitty]

Maybe I'm being over analytical, but even in his cards to NK, he is talking about the feelings she gives him. He doesn't ever really compliment her as a person.

Just some pondering.

No! This is a very important insight!

I decided to go back and analyse "angry emails" I had received from a sociopath - but it was years later, so I could analyse them without my own emotional reactions kicking in. I noticed exactly what you describe.

A normal person who is angry simply speaks in an angry way. "You are such a jerk! I am sick of your nonsense!"

Sociopath instead described the experience of anger as if writing a dramatic novel. "my hands are shaking with anger as I write this"

I went back through years and it was all the same.

The anger is not actually experienced but simply displayed as a learned behaviour to get a reaction.

CW was likely obsessed with NK

 

[mrjitty]

There is a 5 minute video on the State of Colorado vs Chris Watts facebook page that i have not seen yet. It is the neighbor talking to the police, NUA and her son. In it he said that when SW was in NC there were many times that both vehicles the Watt's drove were parked on the street. He said the Lexus was parked down the road for several days in a row. Makes me think that NK was parked in the garage and they played house while his family was in NC.

LOL

Also note that the fights are now screaming and Watts "gets crazy"

 

[Check21]

LOL

Also note that the fights are now screaming and Watts "gets crazy"

I did notice he said they scream at eachother and it didn't sound one sided. You don't believe him? I agree that part sounds unlike anything we have heard from anyone else about the couple.
However, NK staying at the house a few nights would explain her uncertainty regarding how she entered the house. She was trying to keep her lies straight.

 

[bonjoviblonde]

LOL

Also note that the fights are now screaming and Watts "gets crazy"

You don’t believe the neighbor?

 

[tmar]

It's the video of him loading his truck in the morning, but in slow motion. One trip he made it really does look like he is dragging something heavy. I can slow it down to .25 speed, but the facebook video is almost frame by frame speed. Why can't you see it @tmar ? No facebook?

Here is the video on youtube from Denver7 if it helps, but still not frame by frame. I *think* it may have been about 2:40. Maybe someone can chime in on.

All I can see on that video, is someone in a dark shirt walking back from truck at 3.09.
Thanks for trying to help.

 

[mrjitty]

You don’t believe the neighbor?

I believe him!

Between this and the tinder hookup it fills in missing information about this supposed "perfect dad"

 

[mrjitty]

I did notice he said they scream at eachother and it didn't sound one sided. You don't believe him? I agree that part sounds unlike anything we have heard from anyone else about the couple.
However, NK staying at the house a few nights would explain her uncertainty regarding how she entered the house. She was trying to keep her lies straight.

I think the neighbour would have heard a lot

The house is cheap construction and they are close together in a quite neighbourhood.

 

[Gecko100]

Thank you for these comments.

Having experienced a very high-functioning malignant narcissist and researching about it, and talking with friends who have disclosed they also have had experience with family members with narcissism, I really agree with your comments.

I'm convinced this is a disorder that perpetuates itself through a parent who unknowingly selects one child as more special than the others and alternately elevates and degrades that child. This family pattern is then "transmitted" to the children of this now-grown child.

Once you see the pattern, it's amazing how characteristic it is in it's symptoms - like a common disease.

And I'm convinced it's incurable in the sense that the narcissist can never see themselves as flawed. It's always someone else's fault or persecution. I'm also convinced that SW endured a lot of very latent narcissistic abuse from CW.

 

[BrownRice]

Hello all, thanks for all the brilliant insights and information in this tragic and dreadful case.

I was looking around at stuff that might go towards explaining Chris Watts' behaviour. I am a retired unverified social worker, and these puzzles really interest me especially as my background is in child protection, and assessing abusers was my stock in trade.
A couple of observations that I have made suggests that Watts has an attachment disorder which has already been alluded to, he is attached to no-one deeply. He may have some surface feeling for his dad, but remember that his dad didn't save him from his mum, so he is probably angry at him subconsciously.
I don't think he trusts anyone, and the reason I believe this is at very early stage of life, his needs were not mirrored by his mum who saw him as an extension of herself. If you can't resolve this very early damaging issue, the chances are that you won't meet all the other individuation processes either. (Erickson). So he was underdeveloped emotionally, and very immature. That's kind of obvious lol. A toddler in a man's body.

As a child of a narcissistic parent, he had two choices beat them or join them. We can't beat narcissists especially ones who are responsible for our needs so we are stuck as children, you enter their skewed world, or you suffer. He joined them.
I don't think he was a good parent, just based on what I observed. His behaviour was likely superficial at best, and I can image that he was not a tolerant person who actually liked chicken nuggets being thrown at him. I believe Shan'ann probably thought it was funny (I would too). He was insulted. It's sensitive to him.
He is one of those narcissists who is an angel on the street and a devil at home. I think we know that from the neighbour.

I also think Shan'nan was the subject of domestic abuse perhaps not physical, but abuse nonetheless. Her declarations of love for him reminded me of the cycle of violence, almost like she needed to to keep him calm and engaged, she was sensitive to his needs. I just wish she hadn't chosen him, his behaviour would have affected the children, but I sense Shan'ann mediated this in some way.

I am horrified at the family Watts' behaviour and think Shan'ann was brave to take it on. They are a dysfunctional family of enablers who are incapable of self reflection or the needs of others, particularly children.

Narcissism is one of those things so damaging to children, but by it's very nature it actually causes narcissism. That's why it's not unusual to find one or more in the same family.

That's it from me, hope it adds rather than detracts from the discussion.

Mr Jitty I recognise you from the MK forum.
Dave are you masquerading as Harassed Wilsod? lol

This is a fascinating post. You obviously were a wonderful social worker and your client children were lucky to have you as their advocate!

Question: growing up in a house like CW, did he have a chance to be a productive spouse and parent? Can therapy “cure” attachment disorders?

 

[BrownRice]

I think the neighbour would have heard a lot

The house is cheap construction and they are close together in a quite neighbourhood.

I’ve seen you mention “cheap construction “ a couple of times. Why do you say that? Looks like a nicer than Average tract home in middle class USA. Just curious. I believe you are non-American, so I’m always intrigued to see how Us Americans are viewed by others.

Early on, I thought the house/neighborhood must have been upper class but then realized housing was expensive out there, so it’s not like they had the choice of a nice house in a good school district for $200k. But they look like nice homes to me.

 

[Gecko100]

You would think I should know how to work this forum since I have been here so long haha.
I was trying to reply to Herat to say thank you and yes I agree.

Narcissists can't admit they are wrong because it would destroy their fragile fantasy persona. Despite their 'overthetopness' bragging etc. they actually have very weak ego strengths.

They develop a persona to cover this, someone mentioned a chameleon, yes he would turn any way the sun was shining.
Their shallowness really is shallow.

They should be in therapy as wounded children, but never are because they would have to face their hollow selves. Watts has had his fantasy persona completely destroyed no one sees him as Mr Nice guy any more.

 

[BrownRice]

Yeah, I fear that he wasn’t nice to them in those final few days.

Around others he would have kept up appearances, but he had no such incentive when he was alone with them.

Ya. Remember the detached picture of him at the birthday party. Bella had the look of birthday cake anticipation in her eyes. Dad behind her was off in another world. Girls were right with him and not an oz of love can be seen.

Sure, as a parent, going to non-stop bday parties at that age is torture because you have to interact with all the other parents. He’d already checked out though. I wonder if we will ever hear anything from other party attendees about his demeanor that day.

 

[BrownRice]

"Good God Almighty, son!"

Yes, that could be construed as a normal reaction (similar to WTF!!!). But all of the other disparaging comments he made about SW that same day were absolutely not normal imo.

 

[BrownRice]

Has anyone found a transcript of Ronnie Watt's interviews? Or a video that has decent subtitles? I have tried listening a few times and I can't understand nor hear a thing he says. He mumbles so much and youtube closed captioning is almost pointless to have turned on. Those are about the only videos I haven't made it through.

I found if I used headphones I was able to hear much better than just listening from my tablet speaker.

 

[mrjitty]

I’ve seen you mention “cheap construction “ a couple of times. Why do you say that? Looks like a nicer than Average tract home in middle class USA. Just curious. I believe you are non-American, so I’m always intrigued to see how Us Americans are viewed by others.

Early on, I thought the house/neighborhood must have been upper class but then realized housing was expensive out there, so it’s not like they had the choice of a nice house in a good school district for $200k. But they look like nice homes to me.

I am pretty cynical about a lot of the modern construction techniques - especially in my home country - so not a comment on the US particularly.

e.g cheap shells with spray on exterior. fake brick work, poor insulation, water issues. We've had some bad scandals with new homes which are not fit for purpose.

They look good and are often big but these homes are not built to last more than a few decades.

Since I moved to germany i was surprised to find out there are significant differences in building standards in western countries.

e.g back home it would be common to build a holiday house which is essentially a colour steel barn. Then you chuck up some plasterboard inside. This kind of thing is not allowed in germany.

 

[Ultra Violet]

Logical. But if she is so obsessed to get to work as soon as possible, why call while driving? Unsafe and distracting. Not NK's style, it seems.

I agree with you 100% on that. But, I was thinking that if she has a 4Runner, she would be making the call hands-free through her car stereo system, which would link to her phone via Bluetooth. She could even use voice commands or other short cuts to dial for her, which would be no different than having a conversation with a passenger. (Likewise with text messages. She can also have the stereo sytem read text message contents to her while she is driving.)

jmo

 

[BrownRice]

Apparently it's not all that uncommon. Isn't it something like 60 % of married men cheat on their wives? Could be more, could be less. Same for women. It's just not the kind of thing most people share.

Seems like it’s more than that these days. Out of my long standing personal group, the “best marriages” collapsed from affairs. IMO seems like texting, technology etc has made it much easier.