CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #2

[Lera213]

Big mistake that M brought in her friends to show the new camera system! I truly believe the stalker and or killer was one of those person's that came in and saw the system! That angered the stalker and this would also show that he/she knew exactly the view these camera's showed so he/she would know exactly where to walk and where not to walk!

 

[Confusion]

In listening to the broadcast, it's NOT lorazepam, but it is FLURAZEPAM.

And, the active metabolite of flurazepam is desalkyl.

Seems to me that she was given flurazepam and amitriptyline, and they were in her body long enough to go through her liver and have the metabolites present in her blood stream.

Best-
Herding Cats

flurazepam is the Dalmane we were talking about before.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Now I have to look for a link, but weren't the specimens taken for testing within a relatively short time? This seems like it would have been a subsequent call, but the death was reported already.

ETA: IN the second med report Dobersen says the samples were taken 5 hours after she was pronounced dead so that doesn't really help.

MayraMM linked it in post 1167. She's quick!

 

[JBean]

:floorlaugh: Sorry, but this case is unique. As you pointed out, there hasn't even been an official murder, much less official documentation. We're all treading water here.

So, out of curiosity, is there a pile of hair on your desk right now? A dent right at the edge where you started banging your head and couldn't stop?

I cannot believe you just said that. I have really long hair and over the past few days it has suddenly started to fall out by the handful. As I was reading your post I was -at that moment- pulling out a huge clump of hair.


As for the case- it is unique but the rules really apply very nicely and that application is not really different than any other case. This is not the first time that Tricia has discussed things that are off limits here. It is just the way it is. There used to be a chat room where you could chat it up all night about anything and everything. But now there is only a chat during the show-but you can say pretty much anything I think.
The only thing that is different at all is that we are using a blog piece as the foundation for the discussion. But without it- there is no discussion.

 

[MayraMM]

I cannot believe you just said that. I have really long hair and over the past few days it has suddenly started to fall out by the handful. As I was reading your post I was -at that moment- pulling out a huge clump of hair.

I was just reading about mashed raw onion as a cure for hair falling out. I guess it was on my mind! LOL!

 

[JBean]

Was working. Couldn't listen to the interview. I plan on listening after work.

I do have a question about protocol here. I can understand not sleuthing anyone not named an official suspect by LE, but what about personal statements made by mom.

For instance, mom herself said that she underwent some mental health counseling in the week before M was found dead (according to a poster here who was listening). Since she brought it up and stated it on a radio broadcast, can we now discuss her potential state of mind at the time of the death?

We can't talk about who M was with the night she died, but can we talk about Mom's statements about M not answering texts and coming home late, and mom's own anger over this?

Toni talked about 2 things.
her own visit to a therapist and the fact that Morgan did NOT feel the need to visit a therapist. Morgan stated that she was feeling upbeat and confident that they were closing in on the stalker and that he would be caught.
But Toni encouraged an LE contact and her family doctor to discuss with Morgan how she was holding up to all this stalking. Toni thought that Morgan looked tired and worn out with dark circles under her eyes. Both the LE contact and the OB/GYN gave her a glowing report (the doctor saw her 36 hours before she died) and said she was just fine mentally, in their opinions. They both stated she was upbeat.
She got a clean bill of health from the doctor. ETA: the doctor did not reveal the conversation to Toni until after Morgan died. Morgan was an adult and so while they shared the same doctor-she was unable to report to Toni their conversation. After she died the doctor was shocked by the death, in part based on the conversation she had had with Morgan 36 hours prior to her death.

But it was not the mental state that caught my attention. It was the physical description that Toni gave of Morgan, coupled with the fact that she was not hungry the day before she died and that she was getting ill.

 

[JBean]

I was just reading about mashed raw onion as a cure for hair falling out. I guess it was on my mind! LOL!

Great. I'll be bald and stink
Dude magnet that I am.

 

[MayraMM]

Toni talked about 2 things.
her own visit to a therapist and the fact that Morgan did NOT feel the need to visit a therapist. Morgan stated that she was feeling upbeat and confident that they were closing in on the stalker and that he would be caught.
But Toni encouraged an LE contact and her family doctor to discuss with Morgan how she was holding up to all this stalking. Toni thought that Morgan looked tired and worn out with dark circles under her eyes. Both the LE contact and the OB/GYN gave her a glowing report (the doctor saw her 36 hours before she died) and said she was just fine mentally, in their opinions. They both stated she was upbeat.
She got a clean bill of health from the doctor. ETA: the doctor did not reveal the conversation to Toni until after Morgan died. Morgan was an adult and so while they shared the same doctor-she was unable to report to Toni their conversation. After she died the doctor was shocked by the death, in part based on the conversation she had had with Morgan 36 hours prior to her death.

But it was not the mental state that caught my attention. It was the physical description that Toni gave of Morgan, coupled with the fact that she was not hungry the day before she died and that she was getting ill.

It doesn't sound like she was fine. But of course, not wanting to worry anyone needlessly, she's going to say she's fine.

Just as a side note, right before my ex-husband committed suicide, he was very upbeat. No one could believe he did it. But, that's actually quite common in people who make that decision. They're finally happy because in their minds, there's an end in sight. Things have been settled, and they can relax and be happy.

I'm not saying that was the case with M . . . I'm just saying.

 

[AbbeyR]

I had a thought thonight about how he could have been by-passing the cameras, if they all worked similarly to how the first one did. He could throw something or run in front of the camera and duck behind something (or hide some other way) to get the camera to snap a picture; once it did, it seemed to take a couple of seconds to be ready to take another one. During the pause between pictures, he could get past the camera or hidden somewhere else out of sight. If he wasn't close enough, he could just repeat it. I could be mistaken, but I think I remember either hearing or reading that they got several pictures with nobody/nothing out of the ordinary in them.

I think the problem with trigger speed delay is with the first photo only when the motion detector turns the camera on (Morgan's dad said 5 seconds, but it's usually 1 second - it's listed in the specs of the camera). Then they take photos at regular intervals, for as long as there is movement (the pics of the officers were at one second intervals). So if the stalker ran past the camera quickly enough that he was out of its range in the first few seconds, they might get a picture of nothing. I'm not sure how he could even count on this though, as he wouldn't necessarily know the range or delay time. If you saw a camera recording, wouldn't you assume it was video? Most cameras seem to have both features, as well as the ability to take photos at set intervals whether or not motion is detected.

 

[Herding Cats]

flurazepam is the Dalmane we were talking about before.

Yes, it was. But we didn't know the name of the metabolite, but some quick checks in my reference books showed it. The issue with Dalmane is that the metabolite's half life is something on the order of 48-250 hours, which would lead one to be groggy and not quite with it for days at a time. Not really something you'd use long term, I wouldn't think. Maybe short term (2 weeks) use, but probably not longer.

It is, however, used as a date rape drug...

How long before death would you guess...with her not having an appetite be a clue?

You know, I'm still trying to figure out the dosage of the ami. I still say no longer than 90 minutes after she took the drug, but...with the new information on the other drugs in her system, I'm starting to see where Doberson came up with 30 minutes. My biggest issue is not knowing how fast the pulmonary edema set in...I'd want to give it a bit longer to build up, more than 30 minutes...but maybe not much longer than that.

I'll go in the middle...how does 45 min to an hour sound? She would have been unconscious very quickly, immediately if ketamine or chloroform was used as her mom speculated. But I want to give the longer time for the edema to build up.

I have not finished listening to the broadcast. I've got about 30ish more minutes to go, and I'm tired now. So I'll pick it up in the morning...

My impression is that Toni is naive, but willing to do what it takes. She apparently had a lawyer that didn't do much...if you're reading this, Toni or Morgan'sfather, please get a lawyer that will advocate for YOU, that will stand up against the LE and the coroner, and at least get you the reports.

You deserve them, and you need them, and you may need a lawyer to get them for you (or at least to cut the delays out when you're asking for them). Please get the reports of the calls to LE, their responses, any incident reports, and any reports that the detectives wrote; please also get the coroner's reports, tests and results, and any and all photos the coroner or LE or the emts took at the crime scene, and during the autopsy.

Those are valuable, valuable pieces of evidence. It will help you to get to the bottom of what happened. And if, as they say, there is no evidence of a stalker, I'd be (as a resident in the area [which I'm not]) really furious that detectives were assigned, and apparently had hours long conversations with you and Morgan, and simply wasted time...on the taxpayer's dime.

Something stinks in that LE department, and I keep thinking back to Kathleen Savio...and how it stunk there, too. And now Peterson's in jail, convicted of murder in the first.

Please get those reports. Start on it first thing in the morning. Those reports will give you some answers, which will help solve your daughter's death.

And with that, friends and neighbors, I'm outta here.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[MayraMM]

My biggest issue is not knowing how fast the pulmonary edema set in...

That one study posted several pages back did not list pulmonary edema as a side effect of an ami overdose, even among survivors of large-dose ODs.

I think we need to look a little further into the pulmonary edema cause.

It could be that the huge combination of medications she took caused the heart failure and pulmonary edema.

Which brings me to another point. I don't see someone killing her with so many different medications. Especially the odd ball Dalmane.

I don't see them sneaking past all the security devices, somehow sedating or restraining her, and administering all that medication. It's just a very hard scenario to imagine.

This seems more like a suicide attempt that was guaranteed not to go wrong. She wanted to be sure she wouldn't be found in time.


I wonder if she wasn't asking friends for medication to help her sleep and for anxiety for a while, hoarding the drugs, and then finally took them all at once. Her suicide note could have been in the form of a photograph, and not a letter, but many people don't leave one at all.

All things being equal, the simplest explanation . . . .

It's a terrible thought, but so is murder.

(I think it's OK to speculate on this since the official cause of death is suicide.)

 

[Lera213]

I don't really understand all these drugs but I have a question. Could she have been given a daily dosage without her knowing and it build up in her system, and then the final night it didn't take much more and that is why the large amount was shown in her blood? I heard half life, that means how long it stays in the system right? Well could another drug or something keep her body from that from happening?

 

[gitana1]

Hey! You jump when the dog has to pee. Who wants to step in dog poo early in the morning.:floorlaugh:

Not if you've been stalked half to death. Not if you have to coordinate when you're coming home with your parents so you don;t spend one second alone outside each night. Not if your family has made multiple calls to the police, has purchased various motions detectors, infrared googles, cameras and locks that your stalker seems to have been able to evade.

This makes no sense at all. None. :twocents:

From radio show:

The day before she died, she did not go to school.

She hung out with ex-boyfriend, who had just gotten back from Australia.

Got dressed up that night to go out with friend (not sure if this is boyfriend)

Didn't answer texts for 4 hours

Mom was freaking out because late, was mad.

Later when parents got home that night, they texted her and asked when she was coming. She said she was coming home, but she took a long time. Mom was worried and mad. That night, she sent dad in to talk to her. She was in her bedroom in the dark texting. They talked for about 15-20 minutes. Mostly happy stuff, but she said she wasn't feeling well and had to babysit the next day, was worried about getting kids sick.

Dad almost started to cry talking to her, said he was sorry he couldn't run faster to catch the stalker.

She said, it's okay Daddy, I love you.

He went to bed and told Toni about his conversation.

(The next morning at 5:30 am, Toni found her.)

I find this somewhat close to the version we heard from a poster here in which Morgan was feeling low, expressed that she was "done" and that her dad went to bed crying as a result.

In that case, why broken locks?

Excellent point.

NO NAMES were said at all.

All the videos are on dropbox but the LE never looked at it but there are reports of somebody running away on the night m was murdered.

This is insane. If this is the truth then someone or two or three needs to be fired.

I feel like LE has a lot of explaining to do, especially if they ever said that there's no proof Morgan was ever stalked.

Man, you said it. I am hoping for a flood of calls demanding info from the police.

were the parents home when the stalker entered the home and drugged/murdered Morgan? did the dogs bark or the parents hear any noises? where was Morgan sleeping?

Yes, the parents were home and sleeping when Morgan died. I can't say whether the parents heard noises but Morgan was in her room. (All from the blog).

Have any of you guys ever, ever seen flurazepam used in clinical practice in the past 20 years? I know I haven't. Dr Google didn't do a good job of telling me if it's commonly used in vet med (a cursory search said no, though).

If someone around there has some Dalmane I would think they would have gotten it from a very very old school doc and it would be easy to trace. JMO.

Here is one heck of a good piece of sleuthing.

The family should hire an attorney yesterday who can work in conjunction with a good PI and get everything they need from the police, asap.

 

[waitin'4thewrld2chg]

I cannot believe you just said that. I have really long hair and over the past few days it has suddenly started to fall out by the handful. As I was reading your post I was -at that moment- pulling out a huge clump of hair.


As for the case- it is unique but the rules really apply very nicely and that application is not really different than any other case. This is not the first time that Tricia has discussed things that are off limits here. It is just the way it is. There used to be a chat room where you could chat it up all night about anything and everything. But now there is only a chat during the show-but you can say pretty much anything I think.
The only thing that is different at all is that we are using a blog piece as the foundation for the discussion. But without it- there is no discussion.

Isn't there still a chat room where you can discuss anything and everything? I just went and gave it a try, and it was still there and open...the one I know of, anyway. It is at Serenity-IRC, and the room is #websleuths. You can go in as a guest or sign up.

http://www.serenity-irc.net/java/java.php

 

[hambirg]

I'm just bringing this forward again. I think it's important to note that it is at the highest drug concentrations. I don't think Morgan could have ingested an amount to cause this. She would have been sick and throwing up.

MOO. . .I think she was slipped some type of cocktail and then injected with a very large lethal dose. It's the only way I can see it. . .unless she injected herself, but then there would have been evidence of that laying nearby.

BBM

I think it was a direct result of the amitriptyline overdose.

Amitriptyline was studied in greater detail and caused a dose-related (0.01-1.0 mM) reduction in ventilation and perfusion flow. At the highest drug concentration pronounced lung edema was observed. Morphological studies were conducted with a transmission electron microscope. The microscopic preparations showed dose-related edema (amitriptyline 0.1 and 1.0 mM). The effects noted in our experimental studies are similar to those described in patients who have taken an overdose of tricyclic antidepressants. This emphasizes the possibility of a noncardiogenic edema component in these patients.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9344899

 

[txsvicki]

Some of the longtime members may remember the cumulative effect being described in the anna nicole smith death. I believe that could be what the coroner in this case was thinking. I don't remember well enough to describe well, but taking a drug along with other drugs then taking some more can be fatal. The list of drugs found in the system is very similar.

 

[concernedmother]

Could the x bf coming to town enraged the stalker ?

 

[SoBeCzar]

Could the x bf coming to town enraged the stalker ?

I have been thinking that also.

 

[concernedmother]

One morning M let the dog out at 5 to pee and this person was standing there with a black hoodie on. After that M got a long leash and let him out that way while she remained inside the door. M recognized the person.

 

[21merc7]

Just got caught up.

All the meds listed I have heard of. Friends were taking them in times of distress, either by going to get the prescriptions from docs, taking another friend's meds, or parent's meds.

I thought of something last night I'm curious about. Wonder if Morgan's windows opened. She could sneak out at night and rejoin the friends? If there is someone on the camera, there could be a stalker by all means, or it could be a friend signaling to come on back out and over to our house? Would she have given a friend the keypad code? Have it written down in an obvious place?

These are just common sense questions. I really do think someone could have been stalking.

Morgan not eating or responding that day tells me she did not like the constant contact and early home hours. What 20 year old would?