CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #5

[rollinginit]

I think it's out of genuine concern that a grieving mother is going to end up getting more than she bargained for in this. Like someone said, if they had that much hard evidence it should have gone straight to LE or some other LE agency if they don't trust the first one. If she's merely hoping the named suspects will trip themselves up, if there is no hard evidence, she could be in deep legal trouble and this would be a huge risk to take.

But from what I understand, mom has tried to get LE to re look at this case several times. I would be willing to bet she has went to different ones.
JMO

 

[Cazzie]

New blog post (Sept. 27)

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1401

 

[AbbeyR]

Just wondering something, don't mean anything snarky by my questions.....but why do people care so much about her naming people on her blog? Those people have a complete right to sue ( I know I would)
Could it be possible mom wants that????? Maybe she wants to bring this out. Media attention would surely pick up then, and there would be a court case.

There's a reason no MSM source can tell the story Mom is telling -- because there are standards about verification and I think most people would agree that there are good reasons for this. One shouldn't have to sue after the fact, to avoid being publicly called out as a stalker and murderer if there is zero evidence to support this accusation.

 

[jaycee]

I have been thinking the same thing more or less. I think Morgan may have been depressed and unbeknownst to mom started taking the ami. Knowing that anti-depressants have to build up in the system before they reach a therapeutic level, she innocently thought to speed up the process by increasing the initial dosage with plans to level off to the prescribed dose when she felt better.

I've given this some thought too. I think it is certainly possible.

 

[Cazzie]

I have been thinking the same thing more or less. I think Morgan may have been depressed and unbeknownst to mom started taking the ami. Knowing that anti-depressants have to build up in the system before they reach a therapeutic level, she innocently thought to speed up the process by increasing the initial dosage with plans to level off to the prescribed dose when she felt better.

IIRC, Mom said that they had their pharmacy run out a printout and nothing showed up (since when M stopped taking the ami). I don't recall if she said that she checked with M's doctors (but I bet she did).

I guess it's possible M went to a different doctor and pharmacy. But why would she want to hide that from her parents? They did ask her if she wanted counseling (for the stalking) and she declined. They even knew she was on birth control pills.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

BBM
You don't know what LE would say if she did this.

And I - for one - think this would be an excellent approach. Stop dragging it out (allowing any potential 'stalkers' or 'murderers' an opportunity to get away), lay out ALL the evidence, and let LE do their job. If there is evidence LE does not have, WHY would you keep it form them? It makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

If she said that, like I wrote it, it would be slander though since MI's death has been ruled a suicide. TI is addressing a twofold, no threefold, problem; the stalking, M's death and the cause of her death as ruled along with disbelief of it being a correct ruling.

 

[Confusion]

BBM
No - it's saying a book report is accurate but not being allowed to read the book.

That's your opinion, and I have mine. Her blog is the book, and I thought we were supposed to be reading it and reporting on it. It seems to me that several people are saying that they can't report on this "book" because there are many other "books" written by more qualified writers, and it would be better to report on those books.

I don't think anyone here is expected to go through the legal evidence of a possible crime and determine what happened and who did it. That's for LE to do. What we can do is look at the evidence we're given (which includes witness statements) and determine what possiblities MAY have happened, and which would most likely be a total waste of LE's time and resources. She has stated that she has been told not to include all photos and videos (and maybe other evidence that I don't know about). I'm guessing it was an attorney who told her, but it could have been Doctor D, some member of LE, family, friends, or any number of other people.

If people don't think they can work within the parameters set for this case, I don't understand why they don't just move onto one that better suits them. I've done it with a few because I didn't think I could properly discuss them without violating TOS. Maybe I just give up more easily than others here, but who knows. I have no doubts that my methods don't make sense to a lot of people either, so I'll just keep trying to continue with the rules that have been set, and let others worry about whether or not they can get those less than helpful rules changed.

MOO

 

[MelissaDawn]

But from what I understand, mom has tried to get LE to re look at this case several times. I would be willing to bet she has went to different ones.
JMO

If she has gone to different LE with what she thinks is evidence and no one wants to touch the case, then I think that raises a few questions about the evidence. JMO.

 

[lillygator]

New post on the blog:

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1391

Interesting to note this description of the stalking. Not sure what it means:

"...after being viciously gang stalked for four months..."

Is there evidence of a "gang" of stalkers that we haven't yet seen?

ok, so now it is escalauted to gang stalking? what do we know of that? did it just turn to that this date?

Whoa. Just spent 5 minutes researching and got all paranoid and had to stop, lol. Conspiracy overload.

:what:

BTW, where is everyone today? The threads were moving so fast before. Alas, is our attention span wavering, as we feared? I know mine is.

mine certainly is. I want to see the police reports....the initial autopsy....in the beginning she said she didn't have them yet and alluded to being afraid to ask since she felt they were not on great terms with le.

Wait, now it's 5 date-rape drugs found in her system? I thought we knew of 3 drugs, and that one was occasionally used as a date-rape drug? I don't mean any disrespect, because I've read my brother's autopsy report and lots of people would be confused by this stuff. However, we haven't seen the autopsy report or toxicology report, but I thought through Dr. Dobersen's letter and T's statements on the show that we had determined there was a total of 3 drugs in her system and the other 2 substances listed were metabolites of the breaking down of 2 of those drugs.

Also, I think maybe Dr. Kurtzman stating the levels were "insignificant" is being misconstrued as well. If he listed COD as suicide due to amitriptyline intoxication, then clearly he thinks the levels were high enough to cause death. I think what he may actually be referring to is how high the levels were, and in my research on how amitriptyline metabolizes I keep coming across how the postmortem levels could be falsely elevated. I think maybe he means that how high they are is insignificant in that sense.

yet another inconsistency....if she wants people to help we need the true accurate information.

Why is the initial report evidence but not the follow up report/letter that she posted? If anything, I'd think it would be the other way around?

I think there is a reason she posted the letter agreeing with her theory and not the autopsy....I mean why not post both?

The picture is so blurry and distorted, I'm not sure how anyone could be certain about an identity.

EXACTLY! Something is not right about that photo, I can't quite put my finger on it.

I am just worried the longer this drags out the more lost we are going to become. It seems more like an agenda to me than in other people helping to find the truth. I can understand not rememebering things from a year ago, but then don't state those as fact, these multiple inconsistencies....I just don't know.

I know her father had posted on here, has he anymore? Are they reading our questions and taking them in to consideration? I am trying to read back through the comments, but they seem to be updated daily and it is maddening to try and go back through them all since they add to the story line.

 

[AbbeyR]

What we can do is look at the evidence we're given (which includes witness statements) and determine what possiblities MAY have happened, and which would most likely be a total waste of LE's time and resources.

Right. But one of those possibilities is that there was no crime here.

 

[hambirg]

By the readers on the public website where she is making these allegations.

The criticism she posted of the reporter who published an article on Morgan's case revolves around the responsibility one has to check facts and support information that is made public, however she doesn't seem to hold her blog to the same standards or expect her readers to ask the same questions of her. And as she notes -- as of today it has had one million hits.

I'm not following you. She posted a letter to the editor, written by someone else, chastising a reporter for the media not fact checking before running with a story. So that means she should post all the evidence she has on her blog?

The level of responsibility for the media and for someone telling their version of a story, as they see it, on a blog is not the same. I think we've already discussed that this is TI's account of what happened as she documented it. I don't think the goal of the blog is for the public to hear and try the case. I think it is simply to tell the story, and raise enough issues and questions to garner the attention of somebody in authority to re-investigate Morgan's case.

It's up to her readers to either accept everything TI says as fact, to come up with reasons why everything TI says is a lie, or somewhere in between. But the point is, are there unanswered questions about what happened to Morgan and should her case be re-investigated?

MOO

 

[Snowball58]

Didn't we also have a thread of questions to post for the parents? Am I hallucinating that? I can't find it...someone please help me out? Maybe I'm thinking of a different case...

 

[SmoothOperator]

Based on what we've seen so far, I have to say that (today) I wonder if Morgan may have continued taking the Ami without her parents' knowledge. She may have been exhibiting some of the severe side effects, however her parents didn't realize it. Dry mouth (always had a water bottle), loss of appetite/nausea/chills/sore throat, delusions, new or worsening agitation, anxiety coupled with periodic exaggerated feelings of well being, hallucinations, etc. eventually leading to suicidal thoughts and actions.

I believe that Toni and Steve believe she was stalked and murdered. I truly do. As for the wildlife camera pic that keeps hanging me up, I think maybe it was just a nosy neighbor skulking about wondering what all the police activity was all about. When he realized that he was photographed, he tried to knock the camera down.

I need to go back and research the man seen on the front porch. I thought he had been heard entering numbers into the keypad by Toni, but someone posted that Morgan reported hearing this when she was home alone, so perhaps I'm remembering wrong and Toni simply saw someone on the front porch. Off to check the blog.

If/when Toni shares more pics and video of the stalker, and the first ME report, I might change my mind on this. But as of this moment, this is the simplest explanation I can come up with.

This has actually been discussed and theorized as a possibility a couple of times in previous threads..with the levels being what they were found to be in Morgans system at the time of her death indicates however that this is not a possibility..(am via mobile at the moment so unable to link to prior discussions where the exact reasons show there was not ami use prior or leading up to death)..but basically in laymen terms the amitriptyline metabolizes into nortriptyline and Morgans levels at the time of death were 7900ng amitriptyline:2900ng nortriptyline..this ratio shows that the ami was ingested/adminstered in one large dose rather than more than one dose/doses having been taken over a course of time prior to her dying..it is the large difference in the amitriptyline vs nortriptyline that show this..

If there had been more than one dose of the ami over any period of time prior to/leading up to her death those two numbers would have been extremely close where as in Morgan they were extremely far apart 7900 amitriptyline : 2900 nortriptyline..

Thus indicating there was no building up or doses given/taken in the time leading up to her death but rather the ami was one large massive dose given close before death..

Not only does Doberman state this but also several here with medical backgrounds have also stated that these particular ratios/levels indicate a single large dose of ami..also easily confirmed in doing a bit of research on the internet(which all of the above mentioned sources are in much better detail thoroughly explained in the previous threads where this subject was discussed)

HTH

 

[Woe.be.gone]

That is the idea; we're supposed to be discussing that blog. Saying it can't be properly discussed without reading information from opposing sources is like saying that a book report can't be accurate unless it's based on several books. I'm not sure exactly what it is we're supposed to be doing here, but IMNSHO, it seems more like we should be trying to figure out what the facts we're given mean, not figure out what facts we may not have. (although this whole thing would be MUCH easier to figure out with more facts.)

Show me a case where we've ever had all the facts. Because of Florida's Sunshine Laws, the case against Casey Anthony comes the closest and even with the facts, that didn't turn out the way the majority of people wanted it too.

LE hardly ever releases any facts unless it serves them in some way to help solve the case. Since TI doesn't even have a case open for her daughter, she can say what she wants I guess. That could be why she hasn't released actual copies of this and that though because it could be evidence if there ever is a case someday.

Morgan's is a case without a case. It's a free country so TI can tell her story if she wants too. Other people have their voice too and are free to use it.

 

[marycarney]

That's your opinion, and I have mine. Her blog is the book, and I thought we were supposed to be reading it and reporting on it. It seems to me that several people are saying that they can't report on this "book" because there are many other "books" written by more qualified writers, and it would be better to report on those books.

I don't think anyone here is expected to go through the legal evidence of a possible crime and determine what happened and who did it. That's for LE to do. What we can do is look at the evidence we're given (which includes witness statements) and determine what possiblities MAY have happened, and which would most likely be a total waste of LE's time and resources. She has stated that she has been told not to include all photos and videos (and maybe other evidence that I don't know about). I'm guessing it was an attorney who told her, but it could have been Doctor D, some member of LE, family, friends, or any number of other people.

If people don't think they can work within the parameters set for this case, I don't understand why they don't just move onto one that better suits them. I've done it with a few because I didn't think I could properly discuss them without violating TOS. Maybe I just give up more easily than others here, but who knows. I have no doubts that my methods don't make sense to a lot of people either, so I'll just keep trying to continue with the rules that have been set, and let others worry about whether or not they can get those less than helpful rules changed.

MOO

I would respectfully say that the blog is the book report.

 

[Confusion]

Right. But one of those possibilities is that there was no crime here.

That's one possibility, but not the only one. I think the more possibilties we consider (even if some are extremely unlikely) the better the chances are of coming up with the right one or set of them.

 

[MelissaDawn]

That's one possibility, but not the only one. I think the more possibilties we consider (even if some are extremely unlikely) the better the chances are of coming up with the right one or set of them.

I tend to think the opposite way, lol. Without official documents and hard evidence speculating into the unknown is only getting everything confused. We could easily narrow down the list and rule out some of the extremely unlikely theories if we had anything official to go on. Just because someone comes up with a relatively plausible theory doesn't mean there's evidence to match it - and without evidence this isn't going anywhere.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I think the point here is that she died December 2, the memorial was December 6, and the cause of death wasn't determined and placed on a report until December 19. According to LE they treat all unattended deaths as a homicide until otherwise verified, therefore it would have been investigated as a homicide until COD was determined. Now, whether or not LE got information regarding COD before the actual date of the autopsy report could still be in question.

But LE didn't treat it as a homicide. If they had they would have gathered the bed linens along with the panic button, tested all for fluids, checked the doors for fingerprints and other basic stuff detectives do.

Somewhere I read that LE gathered M's electronics, did they at least issue a report to the parents regarding their findings or lack thereof? Actually, they copied the files but did they ever examine them? Because if there are answers therein, that would be at least some substantiation of why the coroner ruled like he did.

Maybe we'll hear more about this. TI wrote that Morgan told her that social media is the future or something like that. That means Morgan must have used it more than what we've seen so far.

 

[Waterdogs]

I have been thinking the same thing more or less. I think Morgan may have been depressed and unbeknownst to mom started taking the ami. Knowing that anti-depressants have to build up in the system before they reach a therapeutic level, she innocently thought to speed up the process by increasing the initial dosage with plans to level off to the prescribed dose when she felt better.

Sounds like a sound theory, however, the 2nd ME said that the amount of the ami metabolite shows that the ami was one dose, not a build up over several doses. The level of metabolite and ami eventually come closer to the same amount in the body over time used. In Morgan's case the amount of metabolite was too low for the amount of ami found, which is also what contributed to him saying she died in about 30 minutes of the ami being administered.

 

[Confusion]

Facts
Footprint by Morgans window
Pic on someone on wildlife cam
Multi lights, cameras installed no images or signs of a human being (as of now)
2nd opinion-high level of ami in her system that caused her death
death ruled natural causes then suicide
2nd opinion undetermined
What did I miss?

Several witness statements (although most are from the same witness)
No evidence of her ever having the fatal drugs (she had amitriptyline, but not in that quantity, and hers were still accounted for)
Determining the official COD is natural causes or suicide will normally stop the investigation and close the case, there's no way to know what may have been missed because it wasn't investigated
There was someone caught on video running from the house the night of her death
Alarms and lights activated by motion