CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #5

[MelissaDawn]

You're not the only one. It doesn't feel right to me either.

Some have said that the drugs are all (or most, please correct me if I'm wrong) are part of a date rape cocktail. If M did research, she'd know that the ami would be more than enough to do the job, if she was so inclined. So no need for the whole cocktail. The anti-emetic would just keep them all down. So that makes sense.

But, why take cold meds (Guaifenesin) when you're planning to kill yourself? Isn't Guaifenesin a decongestant? (Just wondering.)

And, thank you raine1212 for the tox results and to marycarney for the information about the tox results.

-----
Going back to lurking now 'cause typing still hurts.

The only official statement we have on the date-rape drug is in Dr. Dobersen's letter where he clearly states "The presence of another medication, not currently prescribed for Morgan Ingram and occasionally used as a "date-rape" drug. . ."

So I don't know where the idea came about that there were up to 6 date-rape drugs, there is only one according to Dr. Dobersen's letter and it's not even one commonly used for date-rape.

 

[PlanB]

A 175 ng/mL concentration Cyclobenzaprine was also found in the stomach contents. The amount consumed is consistent with a deliberate intoxication.

How many pills are needed to get to this number? I tried searching earlier posts and I couldn't find the right info. Any ideas?

 

[Lera213]

All Hypothetical here:

What if a person who didn't like M, had in thier possession Ami, and Fexeril?

What if a person who didn't like M, had admited to date raping someone?

What if a person who didn't like M, showed past aggressive behavior?

And what if these people lived close to M, would any of these things make you question suicide or accidental death?

 

[MayraMM]

I'd like to point out that I find it odd that just earlier today someone posted that the figure seen by mom could have been a neighborhood kid playing ding dong ditch, and now, a few hours later, it's in TI's blog.

I know some of you don't find that a problem.

Personally, and yes I am repeating myself so no need to point it out, I would rather get her narrative unspoiled by outside influences. In my mind, it loses it's accuracy when it's tailored to fit the current day's discussion on another board. If the story changes because of what she reads here, then all we have is a novel in the making or made for TV movie.

She was doing well in the beginning with the pictures from the wildlife camera, the cuts in the berm, the layout of the house, the footprint. We haven't had anything like that since the beginning, and since she's going along a sort of timeline, that tells me there really hasn't been much of anything happening in all this time except for motion detector lights.

 

[MelissaDawn]

I'd like to point out that I find it odd that just earlier today someone posted that the figure seen by mom could have been a neighborhood kid playing ding dong ditch, and now, a few hours later, it's in TI's blog.

I know some of you don't find that a problem.

Personally, and yes I am repeating myself so no need to point it out, I would rather get her narrative unspoiled by outside influences. In my mind, it loses it's accuracy when it's tailored to fit the current day's discussion on another board. If the story changes because of what she reads here, then all we have is a novel in the making or made for TV movie.

She was doing well in the beginning with the pictures from the wildlife camera, the cuts in the berm, the layout of the house, the footprint. We haven't had anything like that since the beginning, and since she's going along a sort of timeline, that tells me there really hasn't been much of anything happening in all this time except for motion detector lights.

I noticed too, it seems to be a noticeable pattern of what is talked about here ending up there, IMO.

 

[PlanB]

I agree, Mayra. I think she's not doing herself any favor if she's letting herself influenced by the various theories that are on the internet.

 

[latenightRN]

Surely not in her water bottle as the drug is very bitter tasting.

The mother supposedly has NOT read the autopsy report, she also apparently has not researched Amitriptyline poisoning else she would realize it couldn't have been slipped into the water bottle undetected.

.

I have been wondering how anyone could take such a large amount of amitriptyline and not notice it. Is has a very strong bitter taste and strange smell. Even one 10mg pill is bitter...I can't imagine a way you can get this drug into someone without them knowing it. It could never just be added to water, it would have to be in something to disquise it's taste...like something you might swallow expecting it to be bitter...liquid cold medicine, vitamin enriched drinks, alchohol.

 

[Snowball58]

All Hypothetical here:

What if a person who didn't like M, had in thier possession Ami, and Fexeril?

What if a person who didn't like M, had admited to date raping someone?

What if a person who didn't like M, showed past aggressive behavior?

And what if these people lived close to M, would any of these things make you question suicide or accidental death?

Then I'd say, show me some evidence and I'll reconsider my current theory based on the newly presented info. But by evidence, I'd need more than heresay.

There is a person (or gang of persons) being accused of murder by this family, thus far without a shred of evidence against him (this may change as the blog progresses). I would certainly hate to be in his Etnies right now.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Good to see that the case is going to be receiving much more media attention.and not only locally but LA which indicates nationw ide broadcasting imo. Hopefully we will all be pleased to have msm reporting more articles on the case and hopefully just hopefully an investigative report3r or two to dig up info, docs, and interview neighbors, friends and others..definitely a positive step imo.

Below is quote from latest blog entry(with all new blog format)

" The news crews are priming for round two of what really happened to Morgan Ingram, and we are so thankful for that. Oh, and a TV series wonders if they should come here to film, or we should go to Los Angeles."
http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1462

 

[hambirg]

Thank you for pointing it out. I understand why the ME must have felt it was still within the range of normal.



This is from the autopsy. It seems like the assumption is that Morgan was still taking the meds. Shouldn't this have been confirmed with the parents? If the parents had said that as far as they know she had not been taking the meds, shouldn't there have been further testing to make sure whether this is true? I'm thinking that if the gastric contents were tested way back then, evidence collection to prove either suicide or murder would have been not this difficult.

Yeppers!!! :yes:

The ME basically blew off the ami in the blood. He made some assumptions, and jumped to some conclusions without any further investigation. Then when he was questioned about it, 6 MONTHS later, he runs additional testing, which he should have done to begin with. . .and WOOPS. . .he was WRONG!

To make it worse, he then rules it a suicide because of lack of evidence. . .which his wrong conclusion may have caused. :banghead: In his own words he doesn't rule out homicide. He says. . .

If objective information is produced indicating that the decedent was somehow forced against her will to consume an Amitriptyline overdose and observed until incapacitated the manner of death may be reclassified as homicide.

Well how is objective information suppose to be produced if the case is closed? Why does he assume that the drugs had to be forced? Why not slipped? Why would she have to be observed until she was incapacitated? She could have been drugged before she came home, laid down to sleep and then died.

If he doesn't have conclusive proof that it was suicide, why rule it as such? Why not just say it's undetermined? Not it's suicide, but yeah it could be murder if it's further investigated. To me it echos the natural causes conclusion, where he should have just admitted the autopsy was inconclusive and needed further investigation. Because wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions. I just don't get it.

As far as Morgan's personal grooming habits, I think it's irrelevant. Many women (men too) shave regularly. To somehow imply that she was pining after her ex, but was shot down, and was then suicidal all based on the fact that she was shaved is pretty absurd logic in my book.

MOO

 

[Snowball58]

Out of curiosity, why does the ME even talk about her lady-grooming? He didn't say that her armpits were shaved. Or her legs. Is that standard? It seems an odd thing to note on an autopsy...

 

[MayraMM]

Out of curiosity, why does the ME even talk about her lady-grooming? He didn't say that her armpits were shaved. Or her legs. Is that standard? It seems an odd thing to note on an autopsy...

They talk about whether a man is circ'd or not. If she had piercings or tattoos, he would have mentioned those. It's possible, too, that he mentioned it because that would have ruled out doing a combing for foreign pubic hair tangled in hers, showed that he did inspect the area and could readily see no bruising, at least there, etc.

In my dad's post they mentioned the hair on his head was curly. Which I found odd, only because his hair was straight, not even wavy. But that's another mystery I might involve you all in some day. It would actually be interesting to see what you come up with. Maybe I'll start a thread.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Haha...show me the evidence..show me the proof...MOO but as is the way all cases work we wont be shown evidence or proof..its nnot us that matter as far as convincing us that something happened or didnt happen.

Moo thats not what the blog has ever been about attempting to convince us ..or prove to us something happened..moo is they could care less whether we are convinced or feel the evidence threshold has been met to our standards..we quite likely will see very minimal..again evidence is not privy to us on any case and those are cases that usually have charges filed..even more so with the being no charges yet filed they certainly are not going to present to us all of the evidence..not even a signifigant amount of evidence.

We are irrelevant as f@r as being in a posit8on to be entitled to having evidence or proof shown to us so that we are personally convinced..the blogs purpose is not to convince and prove to us that crimes were committed..the blogs purpose is for exposure and media and those in positions who have the authority to reopen the case to see the tremendous exposure, light shone on the issues, and the community's outcry for demanding the case be looked into..

Not to attempt to prove beyond all reasonable doubt on a public blog..thats not what is the agenda nor is the evidence and proof some are seeking going to be laid out in the blog either...

If waiting for the evidence threshold to be met .. Its not going to be met ..it was never intended to be..

 

[Meri]

Yes it would be good to know more about their relationship. Just to point out though that Toni was told that Morgan was MOSTLY outside for the 10 to 15 minutes she stopped by that house where the ex was also. No elaboration on why she went inside or if she saw him when she did.

To consider all things, the reason I'm so interested in the recent hemorrhagic corpus luteum cyst noted in M's autopsy, is because hypothetically it could have caused her illness two weeks prior to her death. Or had it just happened that same day or night?
What does 'recent' mean in this context? Could they have pinned it down even further?

If she had the cyst rupture right after ex returned and her health suffered because of that, which imo it could, then anything happening at the house party contributing to her becoming ill would be wrong.

See how the plot thickens as more variables are added to what was going on with Morgan, her health, her relationships, and circumstances.

I get what you are saying about the cyst, but honestly? I've had one and have known lots of women who have also had them, a couple where they ruptured. It's not really something I would describe as being "sick." It being in major pain, but not an illness, you know what I mean? And if I recall correctly, once that puppy ruptures, you are okay afterwards, not sick.

I don't know if Morgan was sick the last 2 weeks of her life, or if she was just not feeling well, which could include so many things. Has Mom ever said she was actually sick, or just not feeling well? Back to the cyst, if that was her problem, I still can't see Mom saying she was sick, but more of a girl being in serious pain.

I hope I'm making sense. I'm tired.

 

[rollinginit]

Good to see that the case is going to be receiving much more media attention.and not only locally but LA which indicates nationw ide broadcasting imo. Hopefully we will all be pleased to have msm reporting more articles on the case and hopefully just hopefully an investigative report3r or two to dig up info, docs, and interview neighbors, friends and others..definitely a positive step imo.
]

RSBM
More attention may help get some answers, but I sure hope mom is prepared. If MSM talks with her, there is no doubt they are also going to talk with LE and the ME. I wouldn't even be surprised if some of those investigating shows have their own experts on hand. The media and the public sure can be fickle.

 

[txsvicki]

Imo, attributing stress and anxiety as the reason for Morgan being so weak and having no appetite the last 1-2 weeks of her life was a mistake. She thought she might have been drugged. It's too bad the parents didn't have drug test done as soon as that was suspected. Whether she was taking them or someone slipping them to her might have been discovered. A twenty year old should not be that weak without something being wrong.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Regarding the neighbor(s) never seeing anyone lurking around: we know one of the two adjacent houses was empty. If there was a stalker, that must have been hugely convenient for him. And as far as R's house on the other side, via satellite view there are some trees along much of the relevant side; it's not just open yard between the houses; from above, at least, it appears there is some cover for crouching and hiding.

In fact I wonder how many windows were on that side of R's house at all. I remember reading that some of the houses have the same floor plan, and it appears that the houses flanking the Ingrams are identical. In the house layout diagram we've seen, the only windows on that side of the house are in bathrooms and closets - thus either textured glass, or probably set high off the ground, like the master BR closet window we've heard about. We were told there are extra windows in the Ingrams' master bedroom not shown on the diagram. I wonder if R's house has these extra windows? Even if so, there are trees or shrubs right there, which could potentially obscure the view.

We also don't know whether R was the only person living in her home (thus only one pair of eyes). Or what hours she kept. Or how much time she spent at home. Or whether her dog was inside most of the time. Or under what circumstances her dog tended to bark versus not. Or how often she looked over that way, assuming she could see their house from her windows at all.

In short, assuming there was a stalker, all kinds of things could account for why R never saw him. Depending on the type and height of R's windows on that side, plus tree placement, it strikes me that a person crouching next to R's house might not be visible to her, yet would be within easy pebble-throwing range of M's windows.

I wish I knew how far the range of the motion lights (and cameras) was. I also wish I knew where the potential-ladder aspen tree is located exactly. Does anyone know?

Disclaimer: I don't necessarily swallow everything hook, line, & sinker exactly as presented in the blog. Like many of you, I'm inundated by waves of "Well, on the other hand... and on the other other hand... but then again..." But I had to start somewhere.


ETA, hours after my post, I found while re-reading the blog, Aug. 30, that neighbor R offered to have LE set up surveillance on M's windows from her dining room. Therefore there must be windows on that side of R's house, and the layout isn't identical.

 

[21merc7]

Cough syrup.

She could have taken it earlier so she wouldn't be runny nosed and coughing with new bf.

She could have taken if a parent asked her to when she said she was getting a cold.

The list could be endless.

 

[21merc7]

I'd like to point out that I find it odd that just earlier today someone posted that the figure seen by mom could have been a neighborhood kid playing ding dong ditch, and now, a few hours later, it's in TI's blog.

I know some of you don't find that a problem.

Personally, and yes I am repeating myself so no need to point it out, I would rather get her narrative unspoiled by outside influences. In my mind, it loses it's accuracy when it's tailored to fit the current day's discussion on another board. If the story changes because of what she reads here, then all we have is a novel in the making or made for TV movie.

She was doing well in the beginning with the pictures from the wildlife camera, the cuts in the berm, the layout of the house, the footprint. We haven't had anything like that since the beginning, and since she's going along a sort of timeline, that tells me there really hasn't been much of anything happening in all this time except for motion detector lights.

While I agree, I have to add we are reading a fiction writing style based on memories. We know memories are faulty, we know the writing style is meant to make things "more interesting" to attract readers.

I don't care for the approach taken, in fact, it reduces any value to the story of a young lady that chose to take her life, while the parents want to believe someone else took it for her. It is not evidence based, it is hypothesis based. It is a parent thinking of their little girl, maybe not looking at the young lady she had become and trying to see through that young lady's eyes.

With that filter, I see someone that is at one point in the grieving process and clinging to any shred, even if we are providing it, to stay there. The next steps would be too painful to accept. I would like them to realize they did everything they could to love their daughter, she knew that, we can see that. Not to replay every little mistake in their minds, all parents make mistakes, you have to let that go and know you did the best you can. Know that she loved you too.

That is the sticking point, imo. I feel very sorry for them, and wish there was some way to help, but not by contributing to denial.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

I'd like to point out that I find it odd that just earlier today someone posted that the figure seen by mom could have been a neighborhood kid playing ding dong ditch, and now, a few hours later, it's in TI's blog.

I know some of you don't find that a problem.

Personally, and yes I am repeating myself so no need to point it out, I would rather get her narrative unspoiled by outside influences. In my mind, it loses it's accuracy when it's tailored to fit the current day's discussion on another board. If the story changes because of what she reads here, then all we have is a novel in the making or made for TV movie.

She was doing well in the beginning with the pictures from the wildlife camera, the cuts in the berm, the layout of the house, the footprint. We haven't had anything like that since the beginning, and since she's going along a sort of timeline, that tells me there really hasn't been much of anything happening in all this time except for motion detector lights.

I agree and said nearly the same in earlier threads which is why ill just lurk until december when hopefully we will have all of the details to work on..