Connecticut school district on lockdown after shooting report at a Newtown elemen #11

[lawstudent]

Yeah, it's a mess, but think of the implications otherwise. As I said before, everyone on this site could be classified as "obsessed with violence", particularly younger people, and any horror writer or child writing a creepy story could be committed. You need more than that. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out there was a lot more than that in terms of threats or violent behavior, but I think the standard is right. I do think posing an immediate threat to yourself should be interpreted somewhat more liberally though - people with severe drug addictions, anorexia, or severe delusions should be easier to commit. If someone was so out of touch with reality that it was dangerous to their own life, and we could commit them at that point, mass shootings might decline significantly. It's easier to measure.

 

[jjenny]

Nancy allowed him to avoid speaking to her for the three months before he carried out his massacre even though they shared the same house in Sandy Hook.

The 20-year-old would only communicate with her by email meaning there would have been awkward silences around the breakfast table or as they passed each other on the stairs.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-83k-online-kills-massacre.html#ixzz2mNp54Nz9
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I don't think they ate at the same table.

 

[jjenny]

Yeah, it's a mess, but think of the implications otherwise. As I said before, everyone on this site could be classified as "obsessed with violence", particularly younger people, and any horror writer or child writing a creepy story could be committed. You need more than that. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out there was a lot more than that in terms of threats or violent behavior, but I think the standard is right. I do think posing an immediate threat to yourself should be interpreted somewhat more liberally though - people with severe drug addictions, anorexia, or severe delusions should be easier to commit. If someone was so out of touch with reality that it was dangerous to their own life, and we could commit them at that point, mass shootings might decline significantly. It's easier to measure.

How exactly could everyone on this site be classified as "obsessed with violence?"
I don't keep spread sheets of mass murders, I don't write stories of grandma's being shot in the head, I don't play violent video games for hours on end. I am interested in a crime solving aspect of the crime, not the violence.

 

[colette]

I don't think they ate at the same table.

I agree, that line was written by the news. Plus he didn't eat much to begin with.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Which is likely why we have so many mass shootings.

By "which" do you mean the difficulty of institutionalizing people?

If so, the material I was reading really didn't bear this out. I was really struck by this given the discussion here about AL and the coincidence with the material.

What I was reading is unpublished so I can't link to it, but perhaps I can find some of the sources and link to them.

One thing that struck me is how difficult it is even for mental health experts to predict who among even the most severely mentally ill will carry out mass murders.

ETA: It seems to me that in the wake of these types of incidents there is always the idea that someone should have seen it coming. But that apparently is easier said than done, even among experts in the field.

 

[jjenny]

Yes, I do mean difficulty institutionalizing people.
We got rid of mental hospitals and never replaced that with adequate care. And frankly some people need to be institutionalized.
Sounds to me like AL was one of these people.
If it were up to me, he would have been locked up in a mental hospital somewhere with proper care and meds. Instead he was given powerful guns as presents.
We all know the results.

 

[Blue Bottle]

I go back and forth between feeling sad that she didn't have more external support and seeing her as ignorant and blameless, to thinking she had a responsibility to get him help and encouraging his violent interests was reckless of her. Even though action on her part would probably have caused a bigger rift between her and Adam, she should have that aside.

Some interesting posts. I notice people saying she could have gotten help for him but is it always that simple?

Not sure how you have it in America, but here in Australia it can sometimes be very difficult to get help for an adult person aged 18 years and older even with a diagnosed mental illness if that person doesn't want help. Exception being, unless they either commit a crime or are seen as being an acute danger to themselves (suicidal) or a danger to others (they would virtually need to have a gun pointed at someone's head).

Many people with mental illness become good at 'hiding' their illness, their motives and ideas and ways when in public or talking to strangers, though they may 'let loose' at home. You try proving to a Mental Health worker or to the Police that the said person is a danger when that person hasn't actually done anything (yet) or who when presented, appears basically 'normal' in spite of looking somewhat 'odd'.

An example here from a few years ago: One of my sisters has a friend whose daughter had a mental illness, bi polar, but as she got older it manifested out at times where she became so daring that she would go on cliff edges and roof tops ready to jump. While she lived at home the family was always able to 'save' her in that they knew what her symptoms were before she got that way and took action as in making sure she took her medication. Obviously, the daughter complied.

But the daughter got older and when in her mid to late twenties, went away on holidays to another State where she stopped taking her medication and in a phone call back home her family could tell she was tithering on the brink. They rang the police in that State and told them that she was ready to jump off some roof. The police said there is nothing they can do until they literally see her ready to do that or if she commits a crime or it it seen that endangers herself or others. They were frantically ringing everyone they could think of and the same old story.... she is an adult, over 18 and she has committed no actual crime.

Lo and behold, that very same night sure enough, she dived off a rooftop and died... That family was devastated when they 'knew' this could have been prevented but the help simply wasn't there...

 

[Sonya610]

IMO it isn't about institutionalizing him, there was no legal reason to have him locked up.

It is about removing the firearms from his reach, failure to do so was just plain reckless. He was obviously going over the deep end and she KNEW IT!
She could have bought a gun safe (she had plenty of money, tell him it is because they will be showing the house) or said she was taking all of the firearms in for a good cleaning and had them stored at the local gun shop.

She could have taken at least SOME steps when she realized he could be dangerous (and she did realize it, if she didn't she wouldn't have been so "disturbed" over the drawings of women and children being shot in the back). If he did not have handy access to her guns and ammunition his ability to go on a killing spree would be SEVERELY limited especially since he was basically a shut in. You can't go on a mass killing spree with a bread knife and if she had removed the convenient methods he may not have been able to purchase or even make new weapons/explosives on his own.

 

[Brightbird]

Yes, I do mean difficulty institutionalizing people.
We got rid of mental hospitals and never replaced that with adequate care. And frankly some people need to be institutionalized.
Sounds to me like AL was one of these people.
If it were up to me, he would have been locked up in a mental hospital somewhere with proper care and meds. Instead he was given powerful guns as presents.
We all know the results.

I disagree that deinstitutionalisation has been a cause of these massacres. Australia went through the same process of closing down the big mental hospitals/homes and we have a similar system now to America. We never see mass murders here. People either harm themselves, family and occasionally a total stranger with a knife or something. I think there is something else on top of inadequate mental health care. Easy access to guns for one. Something else that makes violence and random murdering attractive to alienated people, I don't know.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Article that talks about disturbing pictures NL found 2 weeks before the massacre:

Just two weeks before the Newtown shooting, Nancy discovered ghastly and sinister pictures in her son’s room featuring dead bodies, but she did not confront him.

“One (drawing) had a woman clutching a religious item, like rosary beads, and holding a child, and she was getting all shot up in the back with blood flying everywhere,” a friend said.

“Nancy was disturbed, really disturbed, but didn’t confront him,” he said. “She wanted to think it over.”

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...#ixzz2mKZd21HW

Wow huh? There's this too ..

“They will spend THOUSANDS of dollars on that child to keep an aide sitting with him . . . and then they say they don’t have money for one hour a week of speech therapy for a smart, quiet child with a speech impairment,” she wrote, apparently referring to Adam.

She had a little hostility towards the world and Adam's schooling herself didn't she? Like perhaps her ill feelings towards the school and the fact they didn't do enough to support Adam sort of fed into his own, so between the two of them it was not down to Adam to try and work through his issues, but really the fault of the school and it's inadequate care etc .. similarly she ran down to the school herself didn't she when he had one of his 'turns'?

There is a great comment in the comments section.

Long story made short; she was clueless and he was nuts.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...uesome-images-article-1.1310276#ixzz2mPXrn8m1

I really think that sums it up. She clearly had no idea he was dangerous, when she found those drawings she probably thought she ought to talk to him, but she clearly had no idea how to handle him or how sick he was. If she had realised what the signs were and what they meant all those guns would have been well out of reach, she would have been terrified for herself (and him) if she had any idea.

On a side note, I believe Adam may have had a personality disorder, these are some ideas http://outofthefog.net/Disorders/PPD.html http://outofthefog.net/Disorders/SPD.html http://outofthefog.net/Disorders/STPD.html

Having said that, he looked TERRIFYING to me, I really can't believe she was OK having guns around him, I mean one look at the guy and I'd be thinking he looks like the type to go nuts with a weapon.

I guess she just got used to him walking around, but whenever I see a photo of him I get chills, he's spooky looking.

 

[iSleuth]

Yes, I do mean difficulty institutionalizing people.
We got rid of mental hospitals and never replaced that with adequate care. And frankly some people need to be institutionalized.
Sounds to me like AL was one of these people.
If it were up to me, he would have been locked up in a mental hospital somewhere with proper care and meds. Instead he was given powerful guns as presents.
We all know the results.

For the sake of example One very well known state institution existed and was also closed in the very same town.

Fairfield State Hospital - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sonya610]

This is how I see it too. It's hard to believe she was so oblivious.

Well I think the following statement is also rather telling:

One friend said Mrs Lanza, 52, had confided that Adam was "getting worse" days before Friday’s killings, adding: "I'm worried I'm losing him."

First of all, duh, he hadn't spoken to her for months, he was burning himself with lighters, he was drawing pictures of women and kids being shot to death etc... Who knows how bad it got leading up to the shooting, she likely wouldn't have told people much.

Anyone with even a LITTLE common sense (or an IQ above 80 to quote her email) would realize if he is detaching from reality and drawing pictures of shooting women/children to death he could be a danger to others especially with there are several guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition in the next room.

Yet she saw those pictures but the thought he could be dangerous to others probably didn't even factor into her concerns, instead she was worried how it would affect HER and HER relationship with him. The comments about poisoning deer that walk on her lawn after she moved INTO a wooded area with lots of deer sort of fit the same mindset, who cares about the deer, they are nothing, it is all about her and what she wants.

 

[iSleuth]

Imo I think we are all right and our reactions/observations are all sound. Thank you - everyone for so many thoughtful posts and shares. This case has totally spooked me since I got the first news alert on my phone dec14. <There has been a Shooting at a Newtown school >I have been struggling to make sense of it all.

Prayers for the victims of SandyHook and that includes first responders. You cannot believe what's going on around here about them. Terrible

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Yeah OK, the kid has dropped so much weight he looks like the scariest thing living on earth, and when he has his photo taken he does some crazy thing with his eyes to make it worse, and he's only eating weird combinations of vegetable now so getting thinner.

He's blackened the walls in his room with plastic and is refusing to talk to me except via EMAIL.

The only time he goes out is to play Dance Dance Revolution, then he's back home playing more video games (I guess) having locked himself up in his room.

The only thing we connect on is guns, and it seems to be his only common ground with humanity.

And clearly he's having a good old time fantasising about killing people cos I found this stack of creepy drawings ..

Oh and another couple of points ..

She knew he had an interest in war etc because he shared that interest with his brother growing up and wanted to join the military, that combined with his social isolation and overall weirdness should have been a huge red flag .. AND >>>

She clearly had disobeyed Adam while he was out one day playing Dance Dance Revolution, because she had snuck into his room and found the drawings when she wasn't allowed in there, so clearly she knew something really weird was up!

 

[Mrs G Norris]

The woman was way out of her depth by this stage though, I don't think there is much she could have done to save herself at the end, even if she had somehow locked up all the guns he probably would have found a way into the safe, or convinced her to keep one of them out 'for protection', which he would have used against her anyway. They'd just gone down too far down the road together IMO and there was pretty much no turning back.

She could have saved a lot of others though. I can't imagine sharing a house with him, how terrifying!

 

[Sonya610]

or convinced her to keep one of them out 'for protection', which he would have used against her anyway. They'd just gone down too far down the road together IMO and there was pretty much no turning back.

I agree however he wouldn't need a gun to killer her. A lone victim in the same house means the options would be unlimited for him.

And you are right she DID break his rules by going into his room to find the drawings which could explain why she had to "think it over before confronting him". However forcing them both to move surely wasn't something he agreed with either, so there was already a whole lot of anger/conflict going on.

In a way this was likely first and foremost a suicide, he likely saw no other way out and since he was leaving he decided to take a whole lot of other folks with him PLUS the stress made him angry which fueled the desire to kill. I wonder about the timeline of his descent into very violent thoughts...was he always so interested in the body counts and spree killers or did that interest rise sharply in response to the forced move.

Murder worries aside one would think with all of his strange behavior and weight loss the concern of suicide would have crossed her mind (another reason to secure the firearms). Males are prone to using firearms for suicide to begin with and a male that loves firearms would likely choose that to take themselves out, she HAD to have realized that!

 

[Mrs G Norris]

That would have been my number one concern as a mother really, that he was a prime candidate for suicide.

 

[Blue Bottle]

Imo I think we are all right and our reactions/observations are all sound. Thank you - everyone for so many thoughtful posts and shares. This case has totally spooked me since I got the first news alert on my phone dec14. <There has been a Shooting at a Newtown school >I have been struggling to make sense of it all.

Prayers for the victims of SandyHook and that includes first responders. You cannot believe what's going on around here about them. Terrible

I think in a way you hit the nail on the head. We are trying to make sense of a situation that in effect is an ordinary everyday domestic one in that many of us have sons and our children don't always behave or do things as we think they should be. You then try to put yourself in her position at what you would do and how you would feel if it was your own son behaving like that over the years as he did. And yes, the thing is that you do get so used to your own children and their ways that what may seem 'off' to others looking in from the outside is your everyday norm. So it can be hard to see where the line is drawn.

Simply put, no matter what sense, if any, it made of this, I just don't get it how a person can get to such a state of mind as to be able to do what Adam did. It's beyond comprehension and something I don't think I will ever understand.

 

[LambChop]

That would have been my number one concern as a mother really, that he was a prime candidate for suicide.

From the few emails that have been published it appears she was very much self absorbed, concerned with appearances and how the world viewed her. She may have felt that revealing this information to others would have reflected badly on her as the "perfect" mother. She appears to have had some real issues. jmo

 

[Sonya610]

Simply put, no matter what sense, if any, it made of this, I just don't get it how a person can get to such a state of mind as to be able to do what Adam did. It's beyond comprehension and something I don't think I will ever understand.

Well his inborn genetic glitches no doubt played a huge part. He could not feel physical pain, he wasn't capable of emotionally bonding with others, since he never felt those things he would not be capable of empathizing with the suffering his actions would cause others.

Now why he chose to shoot up class rooms full of 6 year olds is anyone's guess. He could have targeted them purely for practical reasons. It was very close by so he wouldn't have to drive far, he knew the school's layout well, there would be lots of victims conveniently trapped in small rooms with no where to flee and they would be too small to assault him or cause problems.