Connecticut school district on lockdown after shooting report at a Newtown elemen #11

[IzzyBlanche]

What is getting overlooked in the discussion here, I think are two facts:

1. The vast majority of people who commit violent crimes are not mentally ill.

One of many available sources:

http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

and

2. It is virtually impossible even for experts to predict who among the mentally ill will commit a violent act.

This is where the gun control argument comes into play IMO, which posits that had Lanza, Jared Loughner, James Holmes, the Virginia Tech shooter Cho, etc., not had such easy access to guns, they might not have committed the crimes they did.

But, then, of course, #2 above being the case, who decides who can and cannot purchase a gun due to a diagnosis of mental illness, and under what circumstances? Are people suffering from depression allowed to purchase a firearm while people diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia are not? What if the diagnosis is well in their past? What if the disorder is more or less under control, as is true of many physical disorders, as long as the person stays on their medication (which to some degree was the case with Loughner)?

It's human nature to want an easy solution when things like Sandy Hook happen so we can think they won't happen again. But unfortunately I don't think there are any easy solutions.

 

[CHERIE.T]

If violent he needs to be institutionalized. That's why it exists when the parents are at wits end.

Sadly that's my thought as well. A child who is physically violent and harming his siblings may need to be in a full time care facility.

 

[jjenny]

Sadly that's my thought as well. A child who is physically violent and harming his siblings may need to be in a full time care facility.

We pretty much got rid of those.

 

[CHERIE.T]

What is getting overlooked in the discussion here, I think are two facts:

1. The vast majority of people who commit violent crimes are not mentally ill.

One of many available sources:

http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

and

2. It is virtually impossible even for experts to predict who among the mentally ill will commit a violent act.

This is where the gun control argument comes into play IMO, which posits that had Lanza, Jared Loughner, James Holmes, the Virginia Tech shooter Cho, etc., not had such easy access to guns, they might not have committed the crimes they did.

But, then, of course, #2 above being the case, who decides who can and cannot purchase a gun due to a diagnosis of mental illness, and under what circumstances? Are people suffering from depression allowed to purchase a firearm while people diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia are not? What if the diagnosis is well in their past? What if the disorder is more or less under control, as is true of many physical disorders, as long as the person stays on their medication (which to some degree was the case with Loughner)?

It's human nature to want an easy solution when things like Sandy Hook happen so we can think they won't happen again. But unfortunately I don't think there are any easy solutions.

I'm guessing you have reason and stats to make the claim about most killers NOT being mentally ill.
I on the other hand find the opposite to be true. Most mass killers - from what I've read- suffer from some type of mental illness. Klebold, Bundy, Lanza, the Oklahoma bomber, all said to be mentally ill. Of course I didn't know them personally and don't know what their medical records have in them.

 

[CHERIE.T]

We pretty much got rid of those.

Im NOT taking about torturous 1950 mental institutions...I'm pretty sure you're aware of that.

 

[CHERIE.T]

That is really young for someone to have schizophrenia. Childhood schizophrenia is controversial for many reasons. Not sure if Lanza had it.

Early Onset Schizophrenia
http://www.nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/Helpline1/Early_Onset_Schizophrenia.htm

Stimulant drug treatment in childhood-onset schizophrenia with comorbid ADHD: an open-label case series.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15650502/

Last week on TLC a show reaired about an American child who was diagnosed with schizophrenia at age 2. Her parents knew she saw and heard people not there at age 6 months.

 

[jjenny]

Im NOT taking about torturous 1950 mental institutions...I'm pretty sure you're aware of that.

What is it do you think we replaced them with?

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I'm guessing you have reason and stats to make the claim about most killers NOT being mentally ill.
I on the other hand find the opposite to be true. Most mass killers - from what I've read- suffer from some type of mental illness. Klebold, Bundy, Lanza, the Oklahoma bomber, all said to be mentally ill. Of course I didn't know them personally and don't know what their medical records have in them.

I linked my source, which has other links. Most violent crimes are NOT committed by mentally ill individuals.

From what I've read, Bundy was a psychopath, and there is great debate over whether psychopathy is or is not a mental illness.

 

[CHERIE.T]

I linked my source, which has other links. Most violent crimes are NOT committed by mentally ill individuals.

From what I've read, Bundy was a psychopath, and there is great debate over whether psychopathy is or is not a mental illness.

Inmy uneducated opinion psychopathy is a mental illness.

 

[CHERIE.T]

What is it do you think we replaced them with?

AFAIK there are no longer mad doctor, brain stirring facilities open today that torture instead of help. Of course there are facilities that are better than others but there are good mental facilities out there.

Treatment of today's mentally ill youth is generally a combination of counseling, family support and medications. In worse case scenarios a long stay is warranted.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

"Nationally, the number of psychiatric beds has been steadily declining as hospitals moved away from institutionalizing patients and budget cuts have taken hold. The number of hospital beds in freestanding psychiatric hospitals has dropped 13% between 2002 and 2011, according to the American Hospital Association.

But the need hasn’t declined as quickly, and there haven’t been adequate alternatives to pick up the slack. Between April 2010 and March 2011, about 200 Virginia residents were deemed to be “in imminent danger to themselves or others as a result of mental illness or is so seriously mentally ill to care for self and is incapable or unwilling to volunteer for treatment.” But they were nevertheless released from custody because mental facilities didn’t have the capacity to admit them, according to a 2011 report from Virginia’s Inspector General.

In many major US cities, bed shortages have prompted emergency rooms to “warehouse” the mentally ill in holding rooms and hallways, where they languish without treatment. One Seattle woman who tried unsuccessfully to commit her mentally disturbed son in 2011 was told there were no beds available; he killed himself days later."

Link: http://www.msnbc.com/all/no-beds-the-mentally-ill

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Inmy uneducated opinion psychopathy is a mental illness.

You may be right. I was going by what I had read about the debate over the subject among members of the behavioral health professions.

 

[CHERIE.T]

You may be right. I was going by what I had read about the debate over the subject among members of the behavioral health professions.

I'm definitely stating my opinion. I'm no mental health professional, .

 

[CHERIE.T]

"Nationally, the number of psychiatric beds has been steadily declining as hospitals moved away from institutionalizing patients and budget cuts have taken hold. The number of hospital beds in freestanding psychiatric hospitals has dropped 13% between 2002 and 2011, according to the American Hospital Association.

But the need hasn’t declined as quickly, and there haven’t been adequate alternatives to pick up the slack. Between April 2010 and March 2011, about 200 Virginia residents were deemed to be “in imminent danger to themselves or others as a result of mental illness or is so seriously mentally ill to care for self and is incapable or unwilling to volunteer for treatment.” But they were nevertheless released from custody because mental facilities didn’t have the capacity to admit them, according to a 2011 report from Virginia’s Inspector General.

In many major US cities, bed shortages have prompted emergency rooms to “warehouse” the mentally ill in holding rooms and hallways, where they languish without treatment. One Seattle woman who tried unsuccessfully to commit her mentally disturbed son in 2011 was told there were no beds available; he killed himself days later."

Link: http://www.msnbc.com/all/no-beds-the-mentally-ill

We had an instance here in Va. a few weeks ago. A Virginian politician tried to have his adult son admitted to a facility, there was supposedly no openings.... With in days The son stabbed his dad and then committed suicide. Sad.

 

[K_Z]

Here is a story that will demonstrate how loving parents can save lives by demonstrating parental attentiveness and tough love. These parents deserve a medal--they saved an untold number of lives by contacting police about their violent son possessing an AR-15. These parents are incredibly brave, imo-- they love their disturbed son, but also realized they had to act to protect others from his impulsive behaviors.

http://piersmorgan.blogs.cnn.com/20...-to-do-what-i-did-as-a-mother-to-save-my-son/

To read more, search "Blaec Lammers".

And to respond to some comments above about institutionalization, we have outsourced long term treatment and "institutionalization" of many of the mentally ill to our prison systems. It is within the prison system that many of these ill people can finally be committed legally (concurrent with their prison terms) and compelled to take medication and receive treatment for their severe mental illness. Thankfully, many of these individuals are civilly committed at the conclusion of their prison terms, and enter state hospitals, rather than being set free back into society. Many of these individuals are violent sex offenders, but many others are schizophrenic, etc.

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-reg...isoned-talk-about-cruel-and-inhumane-20131208

Excellent Frontline documentary you can watch online: "The Released"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/released/view/

 

[CHERIE.T]

K_Z that is an excellent article you linked above.

 

[K_Z]

Not sure if this was linked before. It has a LOT of information about AL's disturbed behaviors going back to kindergarten, and how NL handled Adam's issues with the schools. AL was "tagged" by school personnel for special education and an IEP during his kindergarten year-- well before his formal diagnosis of Aspergers. The article is the prelude to the video airing Tuesday.

http://www.courant.com/news/connect...sing-adam-lanza-20130217,0,5614292,full.story

 

[jjenny]

We had an instance here in Va. a few weeks ago. A Virginian politician tried to have his adult son admitted to a facility, there was supposedly no openings.... With in days The son stabbed his dad and then committed suicide. Sad.

The son stabbed his dad and shot himself with a rifle. Yet another situation where a mentally ill person was able to gain access to a gun.

 

[Brightbird]

What is getting overlooked in the discussion here, I think are two facts:

1. The vast majority of people who commit violent crimes are not mentally ill.

One of many available sources:

http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

and

2. It is virtually impossible even for experts to predict who among the mentally ill will commit a violent act.

This is where the gun control argument comes into play IMO, which posits that had Lanza, Jared Loughner, James Holmes, the Virginia Tech shooter Cho, etc., not had such easy access to guns, they might not have committed the crimes they did.

But, then, of course, #2 above being the case, who decides who can and cannot purchase a gun due to a diagnosis of mental illness, and under what circumstances? Are people suffering from depression allowed to purchase a firearm while people diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia are not? What if the diagnosis is well in their past? What if the disorder is more or less under control, as is true of many physical disorders, as long as the person stays on their medication (which to some degree was the case with Loughner)?

It's human nature to want an easy solution when things like Sandy Hook happen so we can think they won't happen again. But unfortunately I don't think there are any easy solutions.

I completely agree with your post. On point number 2, I might add that violent behaviour is predictable if the person has a history of violence and/or expresses the urge and intent to commit violence. Neither of these were evident with AL until it was too late. He obviously had the urge and intent but there were no mental health or social workers involved in the families life at all. There was zero intervention while he descended further deeper down whatever spiral he was on. I think both his parents really dropped the ball on that. Maybe if he at least had occasional contact with a psychiatrist, red flags would have raised, maybe NL would have confided her concerns, a risk assessment might have been done, it might have been suggested to NL that she lock up her guns. The sad thing is that any small intervention might have had a huge effect.

 

[AnaTeresa]

AFAIK there are no longer mad doctor, brain stirring facilities open today that torture instead of help. Of course there are facilities that are better than others but there are good mental facilities out there.

Treatment of today's mentally ill youth is generally a combination of counseling, family support and medications. In worse case scenarios a long stay is warranted.

But there are no facilities, really. There are very few existing facilities and those that exist don't have beds. I worked on a case where it took us almost a year to find a bed for a juvenile who was court ordered to a treatment facility. There were none in our state, and trying to find a facility that provided the type of care this child needed were few and far between - and then there was the wait for a bed.

It's a sad, sad business.