Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

[MurriFlower]

That seems an erroneous assumption. When Kane and the others were brought on, things became much more hush-hush, which is what they should be. Kane told LW specifically that he would see the evidence when the world did.

Well, not really, because I think the touch DNA evidence was AFTER the fiber evidence if memory serves me right.

 

[UKGuy]

otg's last paragraph provides an interesting possibility- that which some believe anyway IDI as well as RDI- that the ligature may have not been intended to kill her. There are three possibilities as far as the ligature, as I see it:
The ligature was part of a bondage/sexual activity and NOT meant to kill her
The ligature was MEANT to kill her
The ligature was STAGING, meant to lend credence to a cause of death for a child who was unconscious/comatose from the head blow which had no outward signs, and was dying. The purpose of the strangulation in that case was to provide an instantly visible, plausible cause of death for a child that otherwise had no visible explanation why she was dead in her basement. If this was the case, this last theory could only be RDI as a intruder wouldn't care about providing a visible cause of death, they'd simply have left her anyway.
The first has the head bash coming during the activity, in response to her scream. It not only silenced her immediately, but knocked her out. If the ligature activity continued after that, it may explain how one of the ligature marks was white (postmortem) and the others were red. She may have died during this activity and the perp(s) did not know it.
The second and third have the head bash coming first, to silence her.

As to whether she could have been tied to a chair or otherwise suspended- there were no marks of any kind on her wrists, and had she been suspended by the wrists or had they been tied to anything tightly enough to restrain her, there would have been marks on her wrists. Not as deep as the ligature furrow, perhaps, but still there would be evidence that cord was tied fairly tightly around her wrists, and the loose cords found on one wrist are not enough evidence the cord was TIGHT, as they could be staging. JR's comment that they were tightly bound has to be false because:
1. there are NO marks on her wrists and 2. JB was in full rigor mortis by that time, which develops about 12 hours after death, and her wrists would still have been frozen in that close together position, even without a cord around them. We know her her wrists were more than a foot apart.
If she were tied to a chair some other way, the only way I see it happening is cord around her torso. We haven't seen photos of her torso from the front, only of her back.
I find it hard to believe the coroner would not/could not determine she had been tied to anything or suspended at some point, but there were other things, as we all know, that the coroner did not put in the report. He did specify ligature strangulation, not hanging.
One thing is certain- whatever position she was in when she died, she was placed on her back in the wineceller within the period that livor mortis was in the early blanching stage. Because if she had died in any other position or been moved at all during that period, there would be another livor mortis pattern on the body and there is only one- indicating blood pooling as she lay on her back, head cocked to the right. There is no livor mortis pattern indicating she was hung, suspended or in a sitting position after she was dead more than about 10 minutes.
So she COULD have died in a sitting or suspended position, but had to be placed on her back right after.

DeeDee249,
The person who assaulted JonBenet may have a bondage fetish and have restrained JonBenet in a chair, lets say in the basement, which then tipped over causing JonBenet to hit her head on some object?

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[BBB167893]

Well, not really, because I think the touch DNA evidence was AFTER the fiber evidence if memory serves me right.

Apples and handgrenades, Murri. Two totally different regimes with differing motives. (Not like we haven't been over that before.)

 

[MurriFlower]

Apples and handgrenades, Murri. Two totally different regimes with differing motives. (Not like we haven't been over that before.)

Well, what you said was that after Kane came on the scene (May 1998), things became more hush-hush (that must have been a relief to the Rs after the debarcle that preceded it with all the leaks to the tabloids).

We know the clothing wasn't obtained till around January 1997, because the investigators didn't ask for it until December 1996 and the Rs had to work out what they had been wearing and find these articles.

So, when was the fiber evidence 'revealed' to the Rs in the interviews that have been quoted? When was this evidence revealed to the press?

When was the touch DNA evidence identified by Bode, and when was this revealed to the press?

 

[BBB167893]

Well, what you said was that after Kane came on the scene (May 1998), things became more hush-hush (that must have been a relief to the Rs after the debacle that preceded it with all the leaks to the tabloids).

Maybe it was, but more importantly, it meant that the Rs and their lawyers couldn't get their hooks into the case anymore.

We know the clothing wasn't obtained till around January 1997, because the investigators didn't ask for it until December 1996 and the Rs had to work out what they had been wearing and find these articles.

Are you sure those dates are right?

So, when was the fiber evidence 'revealed' to the Rs in the interviews that have been quoted? When was this evidence revealed to the press?

August of 2000, and October of 2002, respectively.

When was the touch DNA evidence identified by Bode, and when was this revealed to the press?

Mid-2008. What is your point?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
The person who assaulted JonBenet may have a bondage fetish and have restrained JonBenet in a chair, lets say in the basement, which then tipped over causing JonBenet to hit her head on some object?

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No, I don't think so. Tipping over while in a chair would not produce a hole and open fracture half way around her skull. She'd have to fall from a great height to do that. Could a falling over in a tipped chair and hitting something (it'd have to be something protruding) cause a skull fracture? Sure- but not one like she had.

 

[MurriFlower]

Maybe it was, but more importantly, it meant that the Rs and their lawyers couldn't get their hooks into the case anymore.

Oh, I see.

Are you sure those dates are right?

No, I'm a year out. Murder occurred in December 1996, clothing asked for in December 1997, handed over in January 1998. My mistake.

August of 2000, and October of 2002, respectively.

Ok so the 'fiber evidence' sat there from some time in early 1998 when they got the clothing, until mid 2000, before being 'revealed' to the Rs. Was the date of October 2002 when all the interviews became public? Or was this when the fiber evidence announced to the public in a press conference by one of the investigators?

Mid-2008.

And the DNA evidence was discovered in 2008 and announced in a press conference by one of the investigators soon after?

What is your point?

Just wanted to clarify and harking back to the original post where you said the reason the fiber evidence wasn't announced in a press conference was because evidence was kept hush-hush after Kane came on the scene LOL.

 

[Toltec]

otg's last paragraph provides an interesting possibility- that which some believe anyway IDI as well as RDI- that the ligature may have not been intended to kill her. There are three possibilities as far as the ligature, as I see it:
The ligature was part of a bondage/sexual activity and NOT meant to kill her
The ligature was MEANT to kill her
The ligature was STAGING, meant to lend credence to a cause of death for a child who was unconscious/comatose from the head blow which had no outward signs, and was dying. The purpose of the strangulation in that case was to provide an instantly visible, plausible cause of death for a child that otherwise had no visible explanation why she was dead in her basement. If this was the case, this last theory could only be RDI as a intruder wouldn't care about providing a visible cause of death, they'd simply have left her anyway.

I go with #3...the ligature was STAGING. A head blow and molestation would have caused the BP to take the family to headquarters and grill them.
The first has the head bash coming during the activity, in response to her scream. It not only silenced her immediately, but knocked her out. If the ligature activity continued after that, it may explain how one of the ligature marks was white (postmortem) and the others were red. She may have died during this activity and the perp(s) did not know it.
The second and third have the head bash coming first, to silence her.

As to whether she could have been tied to a chair or otherwise suspended- there were no marks of any kind on her wrists, and had she been suspended by the wrists or had they been tied to anything tightly enough to restrain her, there would have been marks on her wrists. Not as deep as the ligature furrow, perhaps, but still there would be evidence that cord was tied fairly tightly around her wrists, and the loose cords found on one wrist are not enough evidence the cord was TIGHT, as they could be staging. JR's comment that they were tightly bound has to be false because:
1. there are NO marks on her wrists and 2. JB was in full rigor mortis by that time, which develops about 12 hours after death, and her wrists would still have been frozen in that close together position, even without a cord around them. We know her her wrists were more than a foot apart.
If she were tied to a chair some other way, the only way I see it happening is cord around her torso. We haven't seen photos of her torso from the front, only of her back.
I find it hard to believe the coroner would not/could not determine she had been tied to anything or suspended at some point, but there were other things, as we all know, that the coroner did not put in the report. He did specify ligature strangulation, not hanging.
One thing is certain- whatever position she was in when she died, she was placed on her back in the wineceller within the period that livor mortis was in the early blanching stage. Because if she had died in any other position or been moved at all during that period, there would be another livor mortis pattern on the body and there is only one- indicating blood pooling as she lay on her back, head cocked to the right. There is no livor mortis pattern indicating she was hung, suspended or in a sitting position after she was dead more than about 10 minutes.
So she COULD have died in a sitting or suspended position, but had to be placed on her back right after.

I believe the head bash came first...from a mother who lost it. The molestation could have come from someone who had contact with her on Dec 23d and Dec 25th.

 

[BBB167893]

Oh, I see.

I sure hope so.

No, I'm a year out. Murder occurred in December 1996, clothing asked for in December 1997, handed over in January 1998. My mistake.

Got it.

Ok so the 'fiber evidence' sat there from some time in early 1998 when they got the clothing, until mid 2000, before being 'revealed' to the Rs.

I didn't say that. It didn't just sit around. They had to send it for testing. They had some of the fiber evidence when the GJ was called, but not all of it. Considering all of the infighting, money needs, and the like, it's understandable why the other evidence was not known until later on. Indeed, Kane, Levin and Morrisey probably came up with the ideas.

Was the date of October 2002 when all the interviews became public?

A good number of them, yes. Actually, they'd been on the Internet for a while before that, but you asked when the press got hold of them, through Lin Wood of all people. (Probably as a preeemptive strike.)

Or was this when the fiber evidence announced to the public in a press conference by one of the investigators?

No, that didn't happen.

And the DNA evidence was discovered in 2008 and announced in a press conference by one of the investigators soon after?

There was no press conference that I'm aware of. Just ML's letter. Apparently, she preferred not to discuss it.

Just wanted to clarify and harking back to the original post where you said the reason the fiber evidence wasn't announced in a press conference was because evidence was kept hush-hush after Kane came on the scene LOL.

One, you never said anything about a press conference, but yes.

Two, I STILL don't get what you mean (or what the joke is). As I said, you're comparing apples to handgrenades.

 

[MurriFlower]

Two, I STILL don't get what you mean (or what the joke is). As I said, you're comparing apples to handgrenades.

Ah yes, it's the old fruit and fireworks again!

Just checking up on the facts to make sure I haven't got it wrong about the "fiber evidence" only having been made public by the "reprehensible behaviour" of the R's lawyer, rather than having been shouted from the rooftops as was the touch-DNA results.

 

[BBB167893]

Ah yes, it's the old fruit and fireworks again!

WHAT are you talking about? you're comparing two different regimes with much different motives.

Just checking up on the facts to make sure I haven't got it wrong about the "fiber evidence" only having been made public by the "reprehensible behaviour" of the R's lawyer, rather than having been shouted from the rooftops as was the touch-DNA results.

Ooookay. I still don't get what you're driving at.

 

[UKGuy]

No, I don't think so. Tipping over while in a chair would not produce a hole and open fracture half way around her skull. She'd have to fall from a great height to do that. Could a falling over in a tipped chair and hitting something (it'd have to be something protruding) cause a skull fracture? Sure- but not one like she had.

DeeDee249,

OK, seemed plausible when I posted it. Has there been a thread or posts on why Patsy might be wearing her jacket early in the morning?


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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

OK, seemed plausible when I posted it. Has there been a thread or posts on why Patsy might be wearing her jacket early in the morning?


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Sure, lots of them-she was still wearing it from the night before when she was at the White's. I guess the evening "got away" from her....Patsy's jacket wasn't an "outerwear" type of jacket it was more like a soft fleece blazer. In PMPT, Patsy is seen wearing the red turtleneck sweater she wore UNDER the fleece jacket, but not the jacket. I don't know whether this is an accurate portrayal from information given by people who were actually there, or Schiller's artistic liberty.

 

[UKGuy]

Sure, lots of them-she was still wearing it from the night before when she was at the White's. I guess the evening "got away" from her....Patsy's jacket wasn't an "outerwear" type of jacket it was more like a soft fleece blazer. In PMPT, Patsy is seen wearing the red turtleneck sweater she wore UNDER the fleece jacket, but not the jacket. I don't know whether this is an accurate portrayal from information given by people who were actually there, or Schiller's artistic liberty.

DeeDee249,

Thanks, well two things I find inconsistent e.g. they dont seem to fit, are Patsy wearing her jacket down in the basement, thus transferring those fibers, and her version of events that states JonBenet was put to bed wearing the red turtleneck.

Presumably JonBenet was killed many hours prior to the 911 call, so why would she still be wearing a jacket she would wear outside the house, would she not have removed it on returning from the White's?

Then there is John he showers and changes, curious behaviour.


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[Kaybug]

I also followed this story from way back when. I just don't see Patsy Ramsey killing Jon Benet, if for no other reason than Jon Benet was Patsy's pride and joy and she was following in her Mother's footsteps in beauty pagents.

My opinion only.

 

[MurriFlower]

I also followed this story from way back when. I just don't see Patsy Ramsey killing Jon Benet, if for no other reason than Jon Benet was Patsy's pride and joy and she was following in her Mother's footsteps in beauty pagents.

My opinion only.

You're right, of course she wouldn't/didn't. But don't tell RDI!!

 

[madeleine]

I also followed this story from way back when. I just don't see Patsy Ramsey killing Jon Benet, if for no other reason than Jon Benet was Patsy's pride and joy and she was following in her Mother's footsteps in beauty pagents.

My opinion only.

I don't think PDI either,some other R's are higher on my suspect list
but sometimes pride&joy can so easily turn into boredom and even jealousy.(beauty,rival?)
She started with JB&the pageants when she learned she had cancer IMO,it was a family tradition,she wanted to leave something behind.But maybe this changed after she found out she was cured.Mission changed?Just sayin'.

 

[BBB167893]

I also followed this story from way back when. I just don't see Patsy Ramsey killing Jon Benet, if for no other reason than Jon Benet was Patsy's pride and joy and she was following in her Mother's footsteps in beauty pagents.

My opinion only.

There are a few problems with that idea, as I see it, Kaybug.

 

[otg]

Speaking of hanging...weren't JonBenet's feet dirty??

I’m not sure if they were or not, Toltec. I’m not sure I follow you on the question either. What significance would that have? My feet are dirty right now, but it doesn’t mean I’m.... Oh, nevermind. :angel:
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[otg]

MF,

Please allow me to disagree with bolded statement: every action is connected with the 'personality trait'. This is how the 'profiling' was originated. You think RN was neatly placed BEFORE the murder. But how this can be done? IDI kidnappes JBR and while holding her coming downstairs - placed the RN (how many hands does he/she has?)?...or, placed JBR in basement (and kind of say to her: 'don't run no way, I'll be right back! and go back upstairs to place RN?...Nope, cannot see it in such a 'cool dude' action. By the way, talking about 'cool dude' NO FEAR personality - how this could be merrit with the tenderness for the victim by cleaning, redressing, covering with the blanket and such a cruel/pervert way of the sexual activity, forsefull way of the head blow and monstreouse way of strangulation?!! Maybe I should call him/her 'space alien IDI dude'....

You make some good points about the contradictions in possible scenarios, OM4U.

But I think that what Murri was suggesting is that an “intruder” might act that way because of a “substance” -- IOW, drug use. Is that right, Murri?
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