The Ligatures

[Tawny]

-_-

More than one word helps us to have a discussion rather than just sitting here going "...AND?"

 

[DeDee]

:bump:

Blue Bottle, you may be the poster who wrote that death was not an intended consequence, or end goal, of the events that led to JBs death or am I confused with someone else?

The ligatures were not stage props they were functional, they were used to pose the body. The reason there is 17" of cord from the loop around the neck to the handle is the handle had to clear the head as it was brought up behind the head and placed into a holder or one end of the stick was placed into a hole with the other end protruding out. This raised the torso to a vertical position, either seated, kneeling or on the feet. I don't think there was a free hanging suspension. The reason there was 15" of cord between the loops on the wrists is that cord was brought up over the head and placed over whatever held the handle or over the protruding end of the stick. This raised the arms to an upright postition, the same position they were found in in rigor. The 15" of cord between the wrist loops would not have restricted movement of the arms much at all and could not have fooled investigators as being a binding. The ligatures were not constructed to decieve police. They were functional as posing devices. This is a classic posing of a body after death for reasons known only to the perpetrator. The raising of arms has well known symbolism; surrender, praise, beseeching and others. Whatever it meant to Patsy can only guessed, mine is it had something to do with Victory!

This is my opinion.

The ligatures were not constructed to deceive police.

That's right. The hand ligatures were functional and not just for using up the remainder of the cord.


Patsy attended an Episcopalian church. Their services do not include raising arms. They lift their hearts. Episcopalians are quiet and reverent at service. Oft these words are recited:

Lift up your hearts! (by the Rector)

We lift them up to the Lord. (by the people)


Charismatics, some of whom Patsy met during her cancer battle, do lift their arms in song and praise believing God is up in heaven and their hope is that their prayers, songs of praise and worship reach Him as they reach for Him, symbolically, yet full of faith that He is there.

I read once that Patsy's sisters joined her at the Fernie's on the evening of the 26th. They fervently prayed and waved their hands in the air.

This is a classic posing of a body after death for reasons known only to the perpetrator.

How do you know it is a classic pose?

This posing that has been suggested is quite interesting. Posing certainly explains the wrist bindings. And if Blue Bottle is correct, the paintbrush is explained as a posing tool as well as a strangling tool.

The RN author wrote: posession. The first four letters are the word pose.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The RN author wrote: posession. The first four letters are the word pose.

You go girl.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The pose itself wasn't classic.
Classic in the sense that so many murderers pose their victims.

 

[DeDee]

It's scary IMO how quickly he drew his conclusions, and how purposefully he ignored key pieces of evidence.

Location: 1508

Lou Smit was not beneath betrayal and was willing to suffer the consequences if it was behooving to him. He was dishonest even after he prayed about a business solution in 1966.

Wikipedia:

LOU SMIT
Having tried various businesses and failing, Smit prayed for a solution and saw as an answer from God a call he received from a cousin who served on the Colorado Springs Department suggesting that he apply to serve.[2] Smit fell just short of the department's minimum height of five feet and nine inches, but was able to join the force in 1966 after he had his cousin hit him over the skull with a nightstick, allowing him to meet the height minimum when he was remeasured the following day with the bump on his head.[3]

 

[Linda7NJ]

Lou Smit was not beneath betrayal and was willing to suffer the consequences if it was behooving to him. He was dishonest even after he prayed about a business solution in 1966.



Wikipedia:



LOU SMIT

Having tried various businesses and failing, Smit prayed for a solution and saw as an answer from God a call he received from a cousin who served on the Colorado Springs Department suggesting that he apply to serve.[2] Smit fell just short of the department's minimum height of five feet and nine inches, but was able to join the force in 1966 after he had his cousin hit him over the skull with a nightstick, allowing him to meet the height minimum when he was remeasured the following day with the bump on his head.[3]

That's hilarious!!!


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[Anti-K]

No, Anti-K, it is not made up.

Your intentional rudeness is uncalled for and not necessary.

The R home was filled with numerous blankets. However, the killer specifically selected the white blanket. It was discovered with one hair belonging to Patsy and a red fiber, again, pointing to Patsy.

Patsy's clothing also left a fiber in the knot at her child's neck. That's damning evidence.

Patsy's clothing also left multiple fibers on the tape placed across her daughter's mouth.

Ironically, one of Patsy's red fibers landed in the paint tote near the broken paintbrush.

She was hoping that by wearing the same sweater on the 26th, she could explain her fibers being on incriminating evidence.

I don't think she counted on John removing the duct tape and leaving it on the blanket in the basement.

How do you know that the white blanket was specifically chosen?
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

AK, from what I recall, in the 4/1997 interviews, LE pins PR down in recognizing the favorite white blanket which was at one time on JB’s bed, as being the blanket she was wrapped in within the WC.

In the 6/1998 interview with PR, LE firms up that the blanket was not on the bed that night, because the blanket normally would have been between the bedspread and top sheet which do not reflect that a blanket was removed from the bed.

As far as which dryer the blanket may have come from, after having been laundered, PR admits in DOI (page 274) that she laundered (and dried) the “bedding” in the basement laundry.

That’s as far as I can trace the blanket “trail”. We’ll have to assume from there that the blanket counts as “bedding” PR laundered in the basement.

Thank you questfortrue.

However, I just reread the relevant portions of the ’97 and ’98 interviews. They are, of course a little confusing and I think that sometimes more than one blanket is being discussed, however it seems to me that although she was uncertain about it, the white blanket could have been there that night when Jonbenet was put to bed.

10 THOMAS HANEY: When you put
11 JonBenet to bed on Christmas night, was that
12 lightweight blanket in the bed?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
14 can't say for sure.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Take a second and go
16 back to that routine that night of --
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God. I can't
18 remember exactly.
19 THOMAS HANEY: But it should have
20 been?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Should have been.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Or would have been
23 probably?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably.

I haven’t read DOI, but iirc the story about the blanket being in the dryer came from LHP. Of course, two or three nights had passed since LHP would have seen that blanket and it could have (should have?) been taken out of the dryer at any time during those two to three days. I’ve always thought, but am not sure why, that LHP was talking about the dryer on the second floor.
...

AK

 

[questfortrue]

AK, just to round out the quote you furnished, here’s the one I used to figure that LE did not see that the blanket left on the bed was likely. It’s worth a read to see how LE was framing the issue.

20 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. It doesn't
21 appear that if there had been a blanket under
22 that or anything, that anything was pulled out
23 from --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I see what you
25 mean. Uh-hum.
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. Oh, you
2 mean -- you know how you make it, tuck it right
3 here, you know.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Under the mattress?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, right, so it
6 doesn't pull out.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: So the blanket would
8 have been tucked all the way down to the foot of
9 the bed.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct, under
11 this, under that.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Then the bedspread
13 looks like it's properly and evenly distributed
14 at the foot of the bed?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: You're right.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you see the
17 blanket in there at all?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: She didn't, the
20 blanket never worked itself out and laid loose
21 on top of the bed, did it?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, sometimes.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: You know, completely
24 untucked, that's what I am asking. Do you know
25 how JonBenet slept, if that was a normal
0248
1 practice or was it tucked in?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, something
3 that kind of heavy, you know, this was fairly
4 heavy. It was -- it would be unlikely that it
5 would be completely out, without being pulled
6 out.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Without the bedspread
8 being disturbed also?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I would think.

While we’re not likely to agree here, I do understand why you challenge the conclusion about the blanket. It is rather confusing, because PR says one thing one time, and then confirms something else another. (MHO, it’d be easier to solve Fermat’s Last Theorem than to follow all of PR’s explanations.)

 

[DeeDee249]

That's hilarious!!!


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Explains a lot about his logic, too....:floorlaugh:

 

[DeeDee249]

Once again, where is the evidence that the white blanket was in, ort would have been in, the basement dryer and not the upstairs dryer?
...

AK

The "evidence" is in the statements made by BOTH Patsy and the housekeeper that it did not fit in the upstairs washer or dryer, which was described as a small "apartment-sized" set. Neither had a reason to lie about it- and frankly an intruder wouldn't have known the blanket was even IN a dryer, no matter which dryer it had been in.

 

[Frigga]

Lou Smit was not beneath betrayal and was willing to suffer the consequences if it was behooving to him. He was dishonest even after he prayed about a business solution in 1966.

Wikipedia:

LOU SMIT
Having tried various businesses and failing, Smit prayed for a solution and saw as an answer from God a call he received from a cousin who served on the Colorado Springs Department suggesting that he apply to serve.[2] Smit fell just short of the department's minimum height of five feet and nine inches, but was able to join the force in 1966 after he had his cousin hit him over the skull with a nightstick, allowing him to meet the height minimum when he was remeasured the following day with the bump on his head.[3]

That is a joke... isn't it?

 

[gramcracker]

I dunno. the Wiki source is his NY Times obit

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/us/14smit.html?_r=0

 

[Frigga]

I dunno. the Wiki source is his NY Times obit

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/us/14smit.html?_r=0

Thanks! He seemed like a good man in so many ways, and was obviously a good detective, things must have really gone south for him with this case- Like it has for everyone involved it appears. Kind of reminds me of the Anthony's, oddly enough.

 

[Anti-K]

AK, just to round out the quote you furnished, here’s the one I used to figure that LE did not see that the blanket left on the bed was likely. It’s worth a read to see how LE was framing the issue.

20 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. It doesn't
21 appear that if there had been a blanket under
22 that or anything, that anything was pulled out
23 from --
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I see what you
25 mean. Uh-hum.
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. Oh, you
2 mean -- you know how you make it, tuck it right
3 here, you know.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Under the mattress?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, right, so it
6 doesn't pull out.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: So the blanket would
8 have been tucked all the way down to the foot of
9 the bed.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct, under
11 this, under that.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Then the bedspread
13 looks like it's properly and evenly distributed
14 at the foot of the bed?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: You're right.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you see the
17 blanket in there at all?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: She didn't, the
20 blanket never worked itself out and laid loose
21 on top of the bed, did it?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, sometimes.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: You know, completely
24 untucked, that's what I am asking. Do you know
25 how JonBenet slept, if that was a normal
0248
1 practice or was it tucked in?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, something
3 that kind of heavy, you know, this was fairly
4 heavy. It was -- it would be unlikely that it
5 would be completely out, without being pulled
6 out.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Without the bedspread
8 being disturbed also?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I would think.

While we’re not likely to agree here, I do understand why you challenge the conclusion about the blanket. It is rather confusing, because PR says one thing one time, and then confirms something else another. (MHO, it’d be easier to solve Fermat’s Last Theorem than to follow all of PR’s explanations.)

If you compare the passage I quoted to the passage you quoted it almost seems like two different blankets are being discussed, a lightweight blanket and a “fairly heavy” blanket. Or, is it the bedspread that was fairly heavy? Sometimes I think that if we had the photographs that were being used during these interviews than they wouldn’t seem nearly as confusing.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

The "evidence" is in the statements made by BOTH Patsy and the housekeeper that it did not fit in the upstairs washer or dryer, which was described as a small "apartment-sized" set. Neither had a reason to lie about it- and frankly an intruder wouldn't have known the blanket was even IN a dryer, no matter which dryer it had been in.

BBM
This was a small, lightweight blanket – we’ve all seen pictures of it. I’m sure it would have fit in the small, stackable, apt-size dryer with ease.

I’ve never seen any statements made by Mrs Ramsey and/or LHP regarding the blanket being too large to fit into the upstairs dryer. I’ve just been through the ’97, ’98 and 200 interviews with Mrs Ramsey and there is no such thing said three; and, I’ve been going through what I can find form LHP and I haven’t seen any such thing being attributed to her, either. In PMPT, I did find this:
“...[m]aybe the white blanket hadn’t been on the bed at all. [LHP] told the police that the blanket might have been in the washer-dryer outside Jonbenet’s room.” PMPT; p. 1651

On page 1652 Hoffman speculates that Jonbenet may have wet the bed on one of the nights between when LHP was last in the house and Christmas. This would mean that the sheets and blanket and possibly the night gown could have been in the dryer outside of Jonbenet’s room Christmas night. More: “Only someone who knew which washer and dryer the Ramseys used for Jonbenet’s sheets and blankets would know where to find the blanket if it wasn’t on the bed. Just as important, the washer-dryer outside Jonbenet’s rom was built into a cabinet. Hoffman-Pugh speculated that whoever killed Jonbenet knew where the blanket was that night and probably took it out of the dryer.”
...

AK

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

White.

 

[DeDee]

That is a joke... isn't it?

No. Wiki must footnote sources.

Detective Smit joined the Colorado Springs Police Department in 1966. At the time, he fell a half-inch short of meeting the 5-foot-9 height requirement. He persuaded his cousin, who was on the force, to hammer him on the head with his nightstick, The New York Times Magazine reported in 2007. The resulting welt allowed him to meet the requirement when he was remeasured.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/us/14smit.html?_r=0

Lou Smit was deceptive. He knowingly falsified application records to join LE.

 

[DeDee]

There were two tied wires found at the CS. One was found with the victim in the windowless room. The other was outside the window grate.

Wire near body (7KKY)
Wire tied in knot (5BAH)
Cigarette butts, leaves, bag (58BAH)

Patsy was known to smoke a cigarette or two. She smoked a cigar at her 40th birthday bash in late November.

Did Patsy stand outside and smoke while practicing tying knots with the wire?

The Slipknot that Does Not Slip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ5N9ymbcX4

The Garrote Wire is an improvised weapon often used for assassinations. It was the Close-Range weapon of the CIA.

The Garrote wire is simply that, a wire. However, a variety of other materials can be used, such as fishing line, guitar strings, piano wires, scarves, or telephone cords, among other things.

The Garrote wire is used to strangle one's opponent or cut into the neck, slicing through the carotid arteries. Because it is easily concealable, silent, and deadly, it is often used for assassinations in situations when a gun is a not suitable option. It is also possible to use a cloth garrote (such as a scarf) to choke out a target without killing them as a means of capturing them.

http://deadliestwarrior.wikia.com/wiki/Garrote_Wire


"Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them. Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded."

OMO based on evidence found at the CS

 

[pukasonqo2]

a garrote is a horrible weapon, the murderer must stay in really close proximity to the victim and keep tying it up, at the same time, even when restrained, the victim will struggle, bladder and bowels might open; it is a horrible way to die.
it is the only part of the murder of JB that makes me think of the possibility of an intruder: the garrote.
but then, i open the newspaper and something i read makes me realise that anyone could have done it, esp when you happen to read on cases of terrible physical and sexual


lupus est homini , non , non quom qualis sit novit