The Ligatures

[DeDee]

Patsy's red fibers in the knot at the victim's neck, on the tape over her daughter's mouth, as well as in two other key places, tells me that PDI.

Yes, cord fibers vacuumed from JBs bed are damning evidence but it does not tell us who placed the cord on the bed.

Unless PDI. And that is why her red fibers are in the knot at her daughter's throat and on the tape covering her daughter's mouth and on the little girl's white blanket and in her own paint tote near the broken paintbrush.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

I just scanned Thomas' book and couldn't find the part about the cord fibers on the bed. If anyone can post the reference to that I would appreciate it. TIA.

 

[Anti-K]

We cannot assume JonBenét nor her white blanket "started out" on the second floor.

Even though her mother stated she pulled longjohns onto JB because her daughter was asleep; the child also ate pineapple that her mother denied giving to her. Ah! But her mother's fingerprint is on the bowl of pineapple with milk on the main floor.

The housekeeper stated when she left on the evening of the 23rd, the sheets on JBs bed were clean and the white blanket was on the bed. When seeing the CS photo of JBs bed, LHP told LE the sheets had been changed since she was there on the 23rd because the sheets on her bed were not the sheets she placed on the bed on the 23rd.

LHP also told LE the second floor stackable washer and dryer were too small to use for washing/drying the white blanket. It had to be laundered in the larger size appliances in the basement.

We do not know if the blanket came from the bed since her sheets were changed maybe her blanket needed to be washed, also. If true, perhaps the white blanket was inside the dryer in the basement at TOD.


According to John, there would be no need to go upstairs for the suitcase, for the blue Samsonite was placed, in the basement, days before the murder, by John, when cleaning for a Ramsey holiday party.


The windowless cement room where JB's body was placed was next door to the room with the suitcase; hence, the duvet and sham are under the window in the room next to the WC. Do you need a link?

Let it be known: Muddy Waters & The Rolling Stones - Mannish Boy - Live At Checkerboard Lounge - YouTube
.

I think the evidence is that Jonbenet was taken for her bed. As for the blanket, I don’t recall LHP ever saying that the blanket would only fit in the downstairs dryer. In fact, iirc, she said that the upstairs dryer was used for the sheets/blankets. Indeed, it is because of LHP that I say the blanket started out on the second floor – it was either in the upstairs dryer or it was already on the bed.

I’m not sure, but it does seem to me that you are making an assumption: that the blanket was in a dryer. We don’t know that. It may have been on the bed.

I’m sorry, but there simply is no evidence or reason to believe that the pineapple is connected to the crime. She ate it. A half hour or more later, she was struck upon the head or asphyxiated.

I understand that the suitcase was already in the basement. It was at the opposite end of the basement from Jonbenet’s body. Jonbenet’s body was to the east side of the house and the suitcase was at the west side: http://tinyurl.com/3r7u (scroll down to Basement) while you’re at this page check out the dryer location on each floor. Consider the steps needed to get the victim, the suitcase, the blanket if it was on the second floor and if it was in the downstairs dryer.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I just scanned Thomas' book and couldn't find the part about the cord fibers on the bed. If anyone can post the reference to that I would appreciate it. TIA.

I’ll find it in a bit, but the info came from the Smit deposition, and Carnes, but Carnes ignores something that Smit said. Smit said that IF the cord was made of olefin, than fibers form the cord were found in the bed. IOWs, olefin fibers were found in the bed. Carnes ignores the qualification and simply states that fibers from the cord were found in the bed. But, was the cord olefin?

Olefin is used in many products such as clothing – longjohns, socks, sportswear; indoor and outdoor carpets, slip covers and curtains and all sorts of stuff inside of your car! Ropes in an industrial setting.
...

AK

 

[DeDee]

Page 14

JonBenet's body was bound with complicated rope slipknots and a garrotte attached to her body. (Defs.' Br. In Supp. Of Summ. J. [67] at 19; SMF163; PSMF 163.) The slipknots and the garrote are both sophisticated bondage devices designed to give control to the user. (SMF 161, 164; PSMF 161, 164.) Evidence from these devices suggests they were made by someone with expertise using rope and cords, which cords could not be found or "sourced" within defendants' home. (SMF 169; PSMF 169.) The garrote consisted of a wooden handle fashioned from the middle of a paintbrush, found in the paint tray in the boiler room. The end of a nylon cord was tied to this wooden handle and, on the other end, was a loop with a slipknot, with JonBenet's neck within the loop. (SMF 157-158; PSMF 157-15B.) The end portion of the paintbrush used to construct the garrote was never found. (SMF 159; PSMF 159.) No evidence exists that either defendant knew how to tie such knots. (SMF 162; PSMF 162.) Further, fibers consistent with those of the cord used to make the slip knots and garrote were found on JonBenet's bed. (SMF 16B; PSMF 16B.) Although plaintiff agrees the garrote is the instrument used to murder JonBenet, he argues that the cord with which the wrists were tied would not have bound a live child and is evidence of a staging. (PSDMF 51.)

http://www.acandyrose.com/03312003carnes11-20.htm

Do you consider DOI as a source:

"Fibers from the cord used to tie JonBenet's arms were found on the bed sheets."
Death of Innocence page 386, paperback version

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Thanks I just wanted to get the story straight.

The observation is correct: the wrist ligatures could not have bound a live child.

But they sure could have posed a dead one.

 

[Anti-K]

Page 14

JonBenet's body was bound with complicated rope slipknots and a garrotte attached to her body. (Defs.' Br. In Supp. Of Summ. J. [67] at 19; SMF163; PSMF 163.) The slipknots and the garrote are both sophisticated bondage devices designed to give control to the user. (SMF 161, 164; PSMF 161, 164.) Evidence from these devices suggests they were made by someone with expertise using rope and cords, which cords could not be found or "sourced" within defendants' home. (SMF 169; PSMF 169.) The garrote consisted of a wooden handle fashioned from the middle of a paintbrush, found in the paint tray in the boiler room. The end of a nylon cord was tied to this wooden handle and, on the other end, was a loop with a slipknot, with JonBenet's neck within the loop. (SMF 157-158; PSMF 157-15B.) The end portion of the paintbrush used to construct the garrote was never found. (SMF 159; PSMF 159.) No evidence exists that either defendant knew how to tie such knots. (SMF 162; PSMF 162.) Further, fibers consistent with those of the cord used to make the slip knots and garrote were found on JonBenet's bed. (SMF 16B; PSMF 16B.) Although plaintiff agrees the garrote is the instrument used to murder JonBenet, he argues that the cord with which the wrists were tied would not have bound a live child and is evidence of a staging. (PSDMF 51.)

http://www.acandyrose.com/03312003carnes11-20.htm

Do you consider DOI as a source:

"Fibers from the cord used to tie JonBenet's arms were found on the bed sheets."
Death of Innocence page 386, paperback version

(Emphasis mine - Smit deposition) Smit: By the way, IF this cord is made of olefin, there is a small, small fibers of olefin found in JonBenet's bed.
.

So, since when is the cord made of olefin?

I’ve never read DOI. I think that DOI and Carnes got this information form the same source: Smit: and, as we see in his deposition there is some uncertainty – IF the cord is made of olefin.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Thanks I just wanted to get the story straight.

The observation is correct: the wrist ligatures could not have bound a live child.

But they sure could have posed a dead one.

See, we can agree on some things.
...

AK

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Olefin fiberFrom Wikipedia, Olefin fiber is a synthetic fiber made from a polyolefin, such as polypropylene or polyethylene.

Thomas' book identifies the cord as nylon.

 

[DeDee]

Page 148:

Steve Thomas: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation

"Soon after Smit was hired we went out for a cup of coffee, and he told me one of his personal commandments; 'Murders are usually what they seem. Rarely are they perfectly planned,' he said.

He was cautious and noncommittal, which I considered prudent, since he had not yet had a chance to read the thousands of pages in the file. He spoke at length about the Heather Dawn Church, as if the murder of this little girl might be the blueprint for this case too."

"Three days later at a detective briefing, Smit made his first appearance, greeting us all and taking a seat along the west wall. We went around the table to update our findings. Finally it was his turn. He had been around only about seventy-two hours, not anywhere near long enough to devour the case material, but we hoped he might have some initial insights. He did."

"Lou shifted the toothpick to a corner of his mouth, and his eyes twinkled with the excitement of a good bird dog on point. He said, "I don't think it was the Ramseys."

"He never budged from that position."

Lou Smit never looked at the Ramsey's as the culprits. He wasted all of his time trying to prove there was an intruder.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Smit was right.

 

[bettybaby00]

Page 148:

Steve Thomas: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation



Lou Smit never looked at the Ramsey's as the culprits. He wasted all of his time trying to prove there was an intruder.

It's scary IMO how quickly he drew his conclusions, and how purposefully he ignored key pieces of evidence.

The evidence that Smit believed pointed to an intruder bitterly divided the detectives. He had only been on the job for three days before he opined that he didn’t believe the parents were involved in the death of JonBenét. His reputation as a renowned criminal investigator was quickly dissolving in the eyes of Boulder PD investigators, and they could not understand how he so easily dismissed certain pieces of physical evidence. For Smit, he thought Boulder investigators were spending too much time focusing their efforts on the parents and not enough time looking for an outside intruder. He could find nothing that pointed to the family’s involvement in the death of their daughter. His work and his theory would eventually amass a group of “intruder believers” in certain segments of the D.A.’s office. This division would plague the progress of the investigation for years to come.

Location: 1508

 

[DeDee]

<RS the Muddy Waters & The Rolling Stones video>

I think the evidence is that Jonbenet was taken for her bed. As for the blanket, I don’t recall LHP ever saying that the blanket would only fit in the downstairs dryer. In fact, iirc, she said that the upstairs dryer was used for the sheets/blankets. Indeed, it is because of LHP that I say the blanket started out on the second floor – it was either in the upstairs dryer or it was already on the bed.

I’m not sure, but it does seem to me that you are making an assumption: that the blanket was in a dryer. We don’t know that. It may have been on the bed.

I’m sorry, but there simply is no evidence or reason to believe that the pineapple is connected to the crime. She ate it. A half hour or more later, she was struck upon the head or asphyxiated.

I understand that the suitcase was already in the basement. It was at the opposite end of the basement from Jonbenet’s body. Jonbenet’s body was to the east side of the house and the suitcase was at the west side: http://tinyurl.com/3r7u (scroll down to Basement) while you’re at this page check out the dryer location on each floor. Consider the steps needed to get the victim, the suitcase, the blanket if it was on the second floor and if it was in the downstairs dryer.
...

AK

The killer did not care how many steps it was from one dryer to the other. Wherever the blanket was earlier, upstairs or downstairs, on her bed or in a dryer, it was found in the windowless room because the killer wanted to place JBs body on a [clean] white blanket.

Patsy and John made the pineapple highly important when they denied feeding it to their daughter before she died.

 

[DeeDee249]

We cannot assume JonBenét nor her white blanket "started out" on the second floor.

Even though her mother stated she pulled longjohns onto JB because her daughter was asleep; the child also ate pineapple that her mother denied giving to her. Ah! But her mother's fingerprint is on the bowl of pineapple with milk on the main floor.

The housekeeper stated when she left on the evening of the 23rd, the sheets on JBs bed were clean and the white blanket was on the bed. When seeing the CS photo of JBs bed, LHP told LE the sheets had been changed since she was there on the 23rd because the sheets on her bed were not the sheets she placed on the bed on the 23rd.

LHP also told LE the second floor stackable washer and dryer were too small to use for washing/drying the white blanket. It had to be laundered in the larger size appliances in the basement.

We do not know if the blanket came from the bed since her sheets were changed maybe her blanket needed to be washed, also. If true, perhaps the white blanket was inside the dryer in the basement at TOD.


According to John, there would be no need to go upstairs for the suitcase, for the blue Samsonite was placed, in the basement, days before the murder, by John, when cleaning for a Ramsey holiday party.


The windowless cement room where JB's body was placed was next door to the room with the suitcase; hence, the duvet and sham are under the window in the room next to the WC. Do you need a link?

I agree. The housekeeper was shown a photo of JB's bed in a crime photo and said the sheets (they were Beauty & the Beast sheets) were NOT the ones she put on the bed when she was there last on Dec 23. Obviously, JB wet the bed on either the night of the 23 and/or 24. I can see Patsy changing the sheets herself, laundering them in the small washer/dryer outside JB's room as usual, and laundering the white blanket, again as usual, in the larger set in the basement. I can also see Patsy as not bothering to go to the basement to get the white blanket and simply making up the bed with clean sheets and NO blanket. Therefore the white blanker remained in the basement, where it was removed for the purpose of placing JB's body on it in the WC. The fact that crime photos showed JB's bed still made neatly at the foot end was discussed with Patsy by LE in one of her interviews. What police were doing was trying to get Patsy to admit that NO one could have pulled that blanket off the bed without mussing up the foot part of the bed, so the Rs story about the intruder carrying her from her bed wrapped in the white blanket couldn't have happened. Though her usual evasive self, Patsy did eventually admit that the bed did not seem to have had a blanket on it or evidence that the blanket had been pulled off.

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy's red fibers in the knot at the victim's neck, on the tape over her daughter's mouth, as well as in two other key places, tells me that PDI.

Yes, cord fibers vacuumed from JBs bed are damning evidence but it does not tell us who placed the cord on the bed.

Unless PDI. And that is why her red fibers are in the knot at her daughter's throat and on the tape covering her daughter's mouth and on the little girl's white blanket and in her own paint tote near the broken paintbrush.

These fibers place Patsy at the staging, definitely. As for whether she killed JB, not as definite. I always think of one of assistant DA Pete Hoffstrom's comments that "just because she wrote the note doesn't mean she killed her kid". Of course, BPD dropping the ball AGAIN- never asked him why a parent would write a ransom note to cover up for an intruder. There is simply NO innocent reason for her to write that note, and I would have loved to see Hoffstrom answer that one.

 

[Anti-K]

The killer did not care how many steps it was from one dryer to the other. Wherever the blanket was earlier, upstairs or downstairs, on her bed or in a dryer, it was found in the windowless room because the killer wanted to place JBs body on a [clean] white blanket.

Patsy and John made the pineapple highly important when they denied feeding it to their daughter before she died.

You don’t know that the killer wanted to place JBs body on a [clean] white blanket. You just made that up. The blanket could have easily been on the bed and when he grabbed his victim the blanket and nightgown came along with her.

The Ramseys denied knowing anything about Jonbenet eating pineapple and there is no evidence that show that they were lying.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I agree. The housekeeper was shown a photo of JB's bed in a crime photo and said the sheets (they were Beauty & the Beast sheets) were NOT the ones she put on the bed when she was there last on Dec 23. Obviously, JB wet the bed on either the night of the 23 and/or 24. I can see Patsy changing the sheets herself, laundering them in the small washer/dryer outside JB's room as usual, and laundering the white blanket, again as usual, in the larger set in the basement. I can also see Patsy as not bothering to go to the basement to get the white blanket and simply making up the bed with clean sheets and NO blanket. Therefore the white blanker remained in the basement, where it was removed for the purpose of placing JB's body on it in the WC. The fact that crime photos showed JB's bed still made neatly at the foot end was discussed with Patsy by LE in one of her interviews. What police were doing was trying to get Patsy to admit that NO one could have pulled that blanket off the bed without mussing up the foot part of the bed, so the Rs story about the intruder carrying her from her bed wrapped in the white blanket couldn't have happened. Though her usual evasive self, Patsy did eventually admit that the bed did not seem to have had a blanket on it or evidence that the blanket had been pulled off.

Once again, where is the evidence that the white blanket was in, ort would have been in, the basement dryer and not the upstairs dryer?
...

AK

 

[DeDee]

You don’t know that the killer wanted to place JBs body on a [clean] white blanket. You just made that up. The blanket could have easily been on the bed and when he grabbed his victim the blanket and nightgown came along with her.

The Ramseys denied knowing anything about Jonbenet eating pineapple and there is no evidence that show that they were lying.
...

AK

No, Anti-K, it is not made up.

Your intentional rudeness is uncalled for and not necessary.

The R home was filled with numerous blankets. However, the killer specifically selected the white blanket. It was discovered with one hair belonging to Patsy and a red fiber, again, pointing to Patsy.

Patsy's clothing also left a fiber in the knot at her child's neck. That's damning evidence.

Patsy's clothing also left multiple fibers on the tape placed across her daughter's mouth.

Ironically, one of Patsy's red fibers landed in the paint tote near the broken paintbrush.

She was hoping that by wearing the same sweater on the 26th, she could explain her fibers being on incriminating evidence.

I don't think she counted on John removing the duct tape and leaving it on the blanket in the basement.

 

[questfortrue]

Once again, where is the evidence that the white blanket was in, ort would have been in, the basement dryer and not the upstairs dryer?
...

AK

AK, from what I recall, in the 4/1997 interviews, LE pins PR down in recognizing the favorite white blanket which was at one time on JB’s bed, as being the blanket she was wrapped in within the WC.

In the 6/1998 interview with PR, LE firms up that the blanket was not on the bed that night, because the blanket normally would have been between the bedspread and top sheet which do not reflect that a blanket was removed from the bed.

As far as which dryer the blanket may have come from, after having been laundered, PR admits in DOI (page 274) that she laundered (and dried) the “bedding” in the basement laundry.

That’s as far as I can trace the blanket “trail”. We’ll have to assume from there that the blanket counts as “bedding” PR laundered in the basement.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

White.