Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #84

[dixiegirl1035]

He lives in Victoria, where there is active cases. But they say he may be shedding from his covid infection in July. Genomic sequencing is not yet completed.


Andrews announced the possible reinfection on Wednesday saying the man was being treated as a reinfected case “out of an abundance of caution”.
An expert panel had “reviewed this particular case and concluded there wasn’t enough evidence to say that the positive test presented viral shedding, so the case is being monitored closely, and it is through an abundance of caution that we are assuming that it is a positive case, rather than the person shedding after the original infection,” he said.
Australia may have recorded first case of Covid-19 reinfection

Come to think of it @SouthAussie, I don't recall EVER seeing a report of any person worldwide that has been deemed an "active carrier" of the virus.

Has anyone here? Is it even biologically credible? (a la how other microbes in the body become dormant for months/years and come back later)

 

[dixiegirl1035]

In March, when everything shut down, I never envisioned that we would be in lockdown this long. I thought Covid would be under control in a couple of months, much like SARS and MERS.

So there's been a constant need to adjust my expectations. Many things take longer to do than pre-covid. But there are huge time saving changes too. Zoom is time efficient so I no longer need to schedule an entire evening for a single meeting.

It's really just been recently that I've accepted the fact that we may still be living like this next year at this time. Having a longer framework helps prevent a sense of drifting, waiting and wasting time.

Ditto, I'm in your camp also. I think that many scientists were also hoping in the beginning that this would happen as you stated as the optimistic outcome of MERS/SARS.

And many gambled on such optimism vs. working with the worst case scenario... which COVID-19 is.

MOO

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Time to re-assess. Are we a country, or are we 50 individual states doing whatever?

IIRC, we discussed this wayyy back yet I cannot remember specifics just the broad sweep that the US government cannot lock down the entire country and has to be done at local/state levels. And now even that is in the courts.

Targeting of hot spots in states/localities as NY has done perhaps?

MOO

 

[GRT]

IIRC, we discussed this wayyy back yet I cannot remember specifics just the broad sweep that the US government cannot lock down the entire country and has to be done at local/state levels. And now even that is in the courts.

Targeting of hot spots in states/localities as NY has done perhaps?

MOO

That's the way I understand it, too.

 

[SouthAussie]

IIRC, we discussed this wayyy back yet I cannot remember specifics just the broad sweep that the US government cannot lock down the entire country and has to be done at local/state levels. And now even that is in the courts.

Targeting of hot spots in states/localities as NY has done perhaps?

MOO

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

Legal Authorities for Isolation and Quarantine | Quarantine | CDC

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

Legal Authorities for Isolation and Quarantine | Quarantine | CDC

Thanks, as I believe that is one we discussed as to this link is limited to quarantines when the folks were returning at the outset and some folks were very upset.. was the limitation, which they did for flights in the beginning and put them at air force bases upon entry back in Jan/Feb.

Lock downs though is a non starter IIRC. And nothing on such as federal lockdown IIRC is even possible in the US?

Appreciate the link! Since a government document, not limited to 10% rule, but there is more at link.

Who Is in Charge
The federal government

• Acts to prevent the entry of communicable diseases into the United States. Quarantine and isolation may be used at U.S. ports of entry.
• Is authorized to take measures to prevent the spread of communicable diseases between states.
• May accept state and local assistance in enforcing federal quarantine.
• May assist state and local authorities in preventing the spread of communicable diseases.

State, local, and tribal authorities

• Enforce isolation and quarantine within their borders.

It is possible for federal, state, local, and tribal health authorities to have and use all at the same time separate but coexisting legal quarantine power in certain events. In the event of a conflict, federal law is supreme.

Enforcement
If a quarantinable disease is suspected or identified, CDC may issue a federal isolation or quarantine order.

Public health authorities at the federal, state, local, and tribal levels may sometimes seek help from police or other law enforcement officers to enforce a public health order.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Coast Guard officers are authorized to help enforce federal quarantine orders.

Breaking a federal quarantine order is punishable by fines and imprisonment.

Federal law allows the conditional release of persons from quarantine if they comply with medical monitoring and surveillance.

In the rare event that a federal order is issued by CDC, those individuals will be provided with an order for quarantine or isolation. An example of a Quarantine Order for Novel Coronavirus (print-only) pdf icon[PDF – 5 pages] is provided. This document outlines the rationale of the federal order as well as information on where the individual will be located, quarantine requirements including the length of the order, CDC’s legal authority, and information outlining what the individual can expect while under federal order.

Federal Quarantine Rarely used
Large-scale isolation and quarantine was last enforced during the influenza (“Spanish Flu”) pandemic in 1918–1919. In recent history, only a few public health events have prompted federal isolation or quarantine orders.

Specific Laws and Regulations Applying to Quarantine and Isolation
Visit the Specific Laws and Regulations Governing the Control of Communicable Diseases page.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Just what I was afraid of. After no cases for months it looks like the virus is in my town.

Car races just finished, with limited crowds.

"NSW health authorities have issued an alert for anyone who went to the Bathurst 1000 motor race as well as residents of Bathurst who have COVID-19 symptoms to get tested as soon as possible after remnants of the virus were detected in raw sewage in the area"

"Authorities say the sample was detected in wastewater from the weekend, and could be a sign of a person with a current or previous infection in a person who worked at or visited the motor race, someone who went to Bathurst or a local resident"

Bathurst 1000 motor race COVID alert issued as virus detected in wastewater

 

[GRT]

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

Legal Authorities for Isolation and Quarantine | Quarantine | CDC

\

The way I understand it, the CDC can enact rules to quarantine infected people and also those who have been in contact with them. I think the questionable part centers around restricting the movements of healthy people. This guide is from 2014, but it explains in depth what powers the CDC has versus what powers the states have. It also mentions that the CDC often leaves it up to the states, themselves.

JMOO, but I think it would be difficult for the CDC to lockdown the entire nation. Who knows? We may find out one day soon.

 

[ilovewings]

Ditto, I'm in your camp also. I think that many scientists were also hoping in the beginning that this would happen as you stated as the optimistic outcome of MERS/SARS.

And many gambled on such optimism vs. working with the worst case scenario... which COVID-19 is.

MOO

I think we all hoped Covid would eventually disappear like MERS/SARS - alas it did not-- sadly-- i think this virus is wicked- and worse than we could have imagined early on when we thought it was primarily a respiratory disease-- sadly, it is so much more

 

[ilovewings]

Feds to Let 15,000 Worship on National Mall—Masks Be Damned

19,000 worshippers approved for the National Mall--
SMH---- rolling eyes- all of it. What country are we living in?

 

[oviedo]

Florida coronavirus: State adds more than 3,600 new cases, over 80 deaths Tuesday

Florida numbers...

 

[cass523]

NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo updates on the state's response to the coronavirus pandemic.

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Gov. Cuomo says he's been talking to New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Connecticut "about new testing and technology alterations" as COVID-19 cases rise.

- Gov. Cuomo says fall brings a number of "stressors" including the start of school, indoor activities and general fatigue.

- He says that New York has the best capability of detecting small outbreaks of COVID-19. "Quick action to contain it and eliminate it. That's the best we can do in this situation."

- In order to exit a red zone, the area must be under 3% infection rate for 10 days. In less populated areas, it's 4%.

- To exit an orange zone, the area must be under 2% after 10 days, 3% in less populated areas.

Gov. Cuomo: Progress made in microclusters but red zones remain in Brooklyn, mid-Hudson

 

[neesaki]

See - I don't know how else to approach it, but factually. I'm sure you were nice, as well. My goal is to protect others, I don't want them getting CoVid. I do not know how we'll handle it in the schools (K-12 scheduled to open here on Nov 30 for some bizarre reason). Teachers will certainly explain why and be nice about it, but in this case, we're dealing with kids as young as 4. And their parents. The message has been completely factual and the mask rule is supposed to be strictly adhered to (kids with issues where they can't wear masks will remain in distance ed). However, no one will be making the parents standing outside at pick-up time adhere to mask rules.

Bus drivers in more than one nation have been attacked (one died of his injuries in France) for pointing to the sign about masks and asking that a person wears one. Perhaps it was perceived as judgmental, but I don't see how such workers are to do anything else, they can't engage in a long conversation with a maskless person about what masks do and what the science is (and even that is perceived as being a scientific know-it-all).

The problem is pretty deep at this point. Fortunately, it looks like about 80% of people in France are wearing their masks as required and same is true here in most of urban/suburban California (not the Central Valley though). And that's enough to really slow the rate of CoVid transmission. France has just reinstituted stricter measures so we'll see how that goes for them - it looks like most are obeying.

Yes, it was basically a friendly debate over our differing opinions. As you, I haven’t seen anyone being derogatory or openly critical toward non mask wearers. From my own observations they are ignored. For myself, I steer clear of them as far away as possible, up to the point of reversing course and going down a different aisle in the grocery store.

I will admit to catching myself muttering WTF under my mask
though.

My DH is good about wearing a mask when going to the store, and actually complains when he sees someone without one. Yet on the other hand, when he’s playing golf with his golf buddies it seems they tend to be a bit lax around each other. They are outdoors though, and they do drive separate carts. But then they sometimes get together for an after golf drink, and I know they’re not distancing when they do that. :sigh:

 

[ilovewings]

Yeah... I saw a facebook post of a son of a good friend... meme of a person in a mask in a sling shot... "not about a mask, its about control"

control of what?

oh... there were also far less conspiracy theories in the 1940s!!!

and there wasn't the emphasis on "me me me"-- it's all about me!!!!!

 

[ilovewings]

Yes, it was basically a friendly debate over our differing opinions. As you, I haven’t seen anyone being derogatory or openly critical toward non mask wearers. From my own observations they are ignored. For myself, I steer clear of them as far away as possible, up to the point of reversing course and going down a different aisle in the grocery store.

I will admit to catching myself muttering WTF under my mask
though.

My DH is good about wearing a mask when going to the store, and actually complains when he sees someone without one. Yet on the other hand, when he’s playing golf with his golf buddies it seems they tend to be a bit lax around each other. They are outdoors though, and they do drive separate carts. But then they sometimes get together for an after golf drink, and I know they’re not distancing when they do that. :sigh:

I hear ya! my husband is on a golf league and he played all summer- no masks of course and forget social distancing- they did not get together for a drink- thank goodness cause that is not a great situation-- if they are indoors sitting together. However, a guy on his league did contract the virus and was in ICU- I insisted my husband get tested and he was negative, thank goodness.

 

[ilovewings]

I hate to say it, and maybe this has been discussed in earlier threads, but IMO some people Just. Don’t. Care.

We assume if only they understood masks are for protection of the individuals they encounter and society in general of course they would wear one. I believe that’s true for some people. For others, it will take someone close to them getting deathly ill before it registers. And there are the “All about me” folks who won’t change their behavior unless they, themselves get quite sick.

It occurs to me there hasn’t really been an event that unified the nation since 9/11. It’s been almost 20 years since something truly scary happened here and there’s an entire generation that hasn’t seen “one for all” behavior modeled by society. Instead they’ve seen widespread social devisiveness. Combine that w/a sense of entitlement (everyone gets a trophy) and MSM that fans rage while skewing stories for ratings. I know it isn’t just millennials bashing masks, and many younger people are wearing them religiously. I’m just giving my opinion on why some of the ones who won’t won’t.

As for older generations, I think MSM and social media are fostering and fanning rightful indignation and some degree of anger and even hatred in just about everyone, myself included. Not the frame of mind to be in for some to care about the rest of the world.

I’m curious if mask compliance is higher in areas that have recently been hit with a devastating incident that caused communities to come together. Hurricane Katrina, California wildfires, East Coast floods, etc.

As for what can be done? I’ve seen this WWII poster 100 times.

View attachment 268554

From what I understand, the country really pulled together. Women went to work in factories and everyone quit wearing nylons for starters. What was different then than now. And are there things done then that can be duplicated today to help get everyone on the same page?

I think the message of why we should wear masks has been wrong: I have said this before: the emphasis has been on protecting others. since most people are selfish, they need a reason to protect themselves as well. So when people were advised to wear a mask they should have been told it protects them as well. That message came out later, but by then no one was listening. I think there should have been education as well with visuals as we have seen those visuals, but not everybody has, showing when you cough or sneeze and how far the droplets travel without a mask and then with one. A picture is worth 1000 words.

 

[10ofRods]

That is one reason I did the shout out to @10ofRods ... some here may understand better how to share vs. saying "you aren't a critical thinker" and here is info.

I really would love to know what to share to educate others. Without insulting them as you point out so well, once you say the words "critical thinker" or ????, they shut down and perhaps get pizzed and shut out ALL such info?

@10ofRods, truly what can we do to educate folks vs. pizzing them off. I don't want anyone to sway to my way... but I do do see that folks just don't understand some of the basics such as exponential growth and timeframe.

I'm really not sure. I know that when the first surgeon learned that washing his hands before surgery decreased infections and deaths in patients, other surgeons would not believe him or change their ways (this was in the mid 19th century - it would be decades before the practice became widespread).

Even today, not all healthcare workers or food service workers wash their hands frequently. In fact, observational studies in public restrooms shows that 30-50% of people do not wash their hands after using the toilet. I've done such a study myself (at a college) and it was 50% non-washers during the break times that I was observing. Yikes.

Do people even know what a virus really is? My students learn about very small things (like RNA and DNA) and I think it helps reinforce their mask-wearing behavior, but the reason most of them say that they wear them every time they go outside their house is that they "don't want to kill a family member." So, it's compassion.

I don't think you can make someone else compassion. And some people really don't care about anyone or perhaps they don't live with anyone they care about.

I think that if we had general public education (you know, good old television like back in the days before netflix and youtube became the main things many people watch) and we could have frequently public announcements prior to flu season, we would have been in a position to alert everyone that this was not the flu, but something worse. With pictures and brief snippets of different aged people who have survived CoVid but don't feel so well...how it affects athletic performance...how the overweight and obese are more vulnerable...all of that...

it might have made a difference. But it would have to be like old style PSA's such that people could not avoid hearing the messages. The grocery store worker mentioned above who was ranting about having to wear a mask might have benefitted from the store having a couple of monitors with PSA's running constantly...right near his register. Maybe it does take policy to make people do things, in the end. It would be weird for people to publicly flaunt or denounce masks, though, if everyone was constantly inundated with information and the actual numbers in their area.

Also - do you all think it would have helped if each local area's numbers were made hard to miss? Front page of newspaper? On TV. In stores via monitors, etc? And if encouragement was given that...some day it will end? Because while vaccines are not perfect and may not prevent every case of CoVId, vaccines should certainly make CoVid much much less deadly in all but the very elderly (85+).

I am so surprised when I go around and read major papers in various states, that in many states (the ones with rapidly rising rates) there is virtually no front page news about that fact.

 

[ilovewings]

You make very valid points. "Don't care, until ..... "

This virus being an invisible enemy just fuels that "don't care" attitude. IMO

I don't think people are properly digesting that all of these quoted deaths are thousands and thousands of real people.
They are not laying in war fields dying or having their homes bombed, they are not dying in a collapsing tower. They are quietly, and painfully, passing away in hospitals and at home ... and occassionally on a plane that is sitting on a runway.

To the public, these are just numbers: abstractions and not real human beings.

 

[ilovewings]

You make very valid points. "Don't care, until ..... "

This virus being an invisible enemy just fuels that "don't care" attitude. IMO

I don't think people are properly digesting that all of these quoted deaths are thousands and thousands of real people.
They are not laying in war fields dying or having their homes bombed, they are not dying in a collapsing tower. They are quietly, and painfully, passing away in hospitals and at home ... and occassionally on a plane that is sitting on a runway.

To the public, these are just numbers: abstractions and not real human beings.

 

[ilovewings]

I. Totally. Agree.

And there's research to support your point - people who just don't care...well, that's another way to say "irresponsible" or "lacking empathy." In some nations (cf Vietnam for a really good example) caring for others is a way of life.

My colleagues and I talk about how, if this were WW2, we'd be screwed. Would people turn out their lights at night as directed? I say many would not.

I think mask compliance in California is a bit higher, especially in the fire areas, for a few reasons. People got used to wearing them when the air quality got bad (and it hasn't been good in many places this summer). And people already had them on hand.

BUT, we've got entire counties defying all mask orders. If you look at that NY Times daily map of where CV cases are rising, you can see right away where California's problem is (and, well, many of those places have had fires, so I don't know what to tell you).

I don't like wearing a mask. But I dislike a future of mostly online learning for my grandkids even more. I dislike not being able to travel and I feel so badly for all the jobs lost - mostly entry level positions and the fact that new jobs are not in areas where job seekers want them to be (healthcare is not appealing to many people).

America is symbolized by its leadership and its spoken commitments. I think it has to start there. Most Californians like Gavin, think he's a unifying force (and the ones who don't - you guessed it, they won't wear masks as a kind of protest).

Still, having said that, even the most mask-skeptical parts of California are doing better than some other entire states. I think it's because the mask-refusniks are in a substantial minority and everyone side-eyes them. I try to be understanding (I don't expect surfers near the ocean to wear a mask, even if they are in a parking lot - but I do expect them to stay 10 feet away from me...)

During WWII we had great leadership: that is the essence of all things including cooperation from the citizens. i will say no more.