Crime Scene Photos #3 ***WARNING - GRAPHIC DISCUSSION***

[fortytwo]

fortytwo ... I can respect that. No harm no foul , I would hope.

I have been away fro my beloved (WS) for a few days and am *chomping at the bit*

My net service has been giving me some troubles and it took me a while to get logged in at PB, onlt to realize *it* was gone.

Much respect to you for *waiting* I am just the *fly in the ointment* for the night, I think ... lol

I will wait ... hone my paitence skills (and maybe spelling too ... nah ... lol)

Thanks otherwise though, your post's here have been fun and learned to say the least!

No worries.

 

[seaneb]

I kept a copy but I think I'd like to know why it got pulled before I share it.

Seaneb. Can you see if the owner has a reason to discontinue distribution?

She deleted it because it wasn't perfect, she is working on a new one. When I posted it, I stated it wasn't perfect, I can except that if you can. You can repost it if you like. I didn't save a copy or I would repost.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I don't have cable TV - so no NG for me. I couldn't handle her more than once or twice anyway.

Yeah, it did start as a plastic bag. How did the thread drift to paper? I bet you could find the exact post that starts saying paper instead of plastic.

Who did it?

Al Gore. It's an environmental thing.

 

[fortytwo]

She deleted it because it wasn't perfect, she is working on a new one. When I posted it, I stated it wasn't perfect, I can except that if you can. You can repost it if you like. I didn't save a copy or I would repost.

Thanks.

Here it is... re-sized for posting.
(and here's a link to the original).

 

[TallyHo]

Thanks.

Here it is... re-sized for posting.
(and here's a link to the original).

Wow - doesn't this look like a pattern of debris that was washed away by water??? My first thought when I looked at this was if the animals had spread things out, there would have probably been bones in every direction. My initial impression is that this pattern supports the idea that the bag was under water.

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

That is an awesome map!

It's interesting to see where the bones were discovered.

I'm guessing there was some animal activity on the remains but I wonder if, as the water receded, some of the debris and bone pieces ended up in those spots.

She certainly didn't go very far into the woods to get rid of her, did she?

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

Quick question:

Has it been determined that she simply pulled up along side the curb and walked the remains into the woods?

I know early on there was speculation that she backed her car into the wooded area.

Thanks in advance.

 

[snow_walker]

Is there one of those maps that shows the terrain? I forget what the proper word is, but in a real map, they show elevations ..somehow this doesn't look like water or animal distribution patterns to me, although it could be either/both. With water patterns, I think you would see a bunch of things washed up against certain points, not so spread out, but many items washed together, including items not related to this case, just general debis and leaves.
With animals one might expect to see a sort of central area with other items of interest to scavengers dragged around, but not things like the balloon, for example. I am not sure if it matters anyway, just a general thought that the site may have been disturbed.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Wow - doesn't this look like a pattern of debris that was washed away by water???

Yeah, but for a flowing river or creek. "Washing away" implies moving water. I don't see why this swamp water would flow with any force. It seems like a self-contained low area that periodically accumulates water... and it stays there until drying up. The foliage is dense and would probably block or diffuse most wind action.

 

[sadyjade]

Thanks.

Here it is... re-sized for posting.
(and here's a link to the original).

Wow ... thank you This is amazing!

 

[Tinsel]

I had the same reaction: looks like water pulled the items as it receeded into an arc pattern.

Also, looks like a Pooh balloon and a pink blanket were discarded that are of interest. Little bits of toys and a torn shirt. Makes me think the body was moved once from an initial site.

The small amount of digging and the nearness to the road where Caylee was found shows her killer gave up quickly, probably because fear of being caught red-handed.

 

[TallyHo]

Yeah, but for a flowing river or creek. "Washing away" implies moving water. I don't see why this swamp water would flow with any force. It seems like a self-contained low area that periodically accumulates water... and it stays there until drying up. The foliage is dense and would probably block or diffuse most wind action.

What I meant (and didn't say very well, sorry!) was that it is possible that as the water receded it pulled things into this pattern. It would be interesting to see the topography of that area, if the area in which the bulk of the items were scattered was lower than the rest of the ground around it. Just a thought.

 

[snow_walker]

topography! thank you, that is the word I was trying for.. perhaps if we had a topograhical map of the area, it would be easier to understand the distribution pattern.

 

[Hot Dogs]

What I meant (and didn't say very well, sorry!) was that it is possible that as the water receded it pulled things into this pattern. It would be interesting to see the topography of that area, if the area in which the bulk of the items were scattered was lower than the rest of the ground around it. Just a thought.

That still implies flowing water. I need an explanation of why the water would be moving with force. We are not even talking about smooth ground where things can slide and roll from water movement. That area has a high-relief surface with lots of tangles, roots, root masses and living foliage. All of that stuff will hold small objects (unless they are bouyant) in place even with some water movement.

This water accumulates from rain. Water "seeks its own level" and you end up with something like a big puddle. There is stays, and it begins to recede by soaking into the ground and by evaporation. But those processes don't involve water flowing laterally across the land; it's a gradual shrinkage of standing water.

IMO, the patterned scattering of bones suggests wholesale movement of body parts (prior to full skeletonization) by agents (animals and/or humans) - not natural forces.

 

[Marina2]

topography! thank you, that is the word I was trying for.. perhaps if we had a topograhical map of the area, it would be easier to understand the distribution pattern.

The topographical map is on p3513. It was made in order to "aid in the determination of flood water disbursement."

 

[BondJamesBond]

Is there one of those maps that shows the terrain? I forget what the proper word is, but in a real map, they show elevations ..somehow this doesn't look like water or animal distribution patterns to me, although it could be either/both. With water patterns, I think you would see a bunch of things washed up against certain points, not so spread out, but many items washed together, including items not related to this case, just general debis and leaves.
With animals one might expect to see a sort of central area with other items of interest to scavengers dragged around, but not things like the balloon, for example. I am not sure if it matters anyway, just a general thought that the site may have been disturbed.

I hope you'll pardon if I'm woefully outta touch w/ current details.

"Terrain" is the proper word, SW. Unfortunately, the tools I'm most familiar with don't have that level of detail for this area. There maybe something available locally. The best information we have for this type of consideration, IMHO, are the pics of the area AFTER it had been cleared by LE.

IIRC, in the photos there is at least one pic that shows the area cleared and what probably serves as the low-point drain, albeit not man-made, out of this area. It seems to run from the northwest corner in a diagonal arc toward the east and south (on the grid drawing it would run from the mid-right side to the mid-top of the drawing - very roughly). I'll edit & add to this post if I can find.

Agree w/ another poster that his area is not fast draining, however, one should note that the flooding & receding water still has a substantial effect on the dispersion of loose items. The presence of vegetation also has a significant effect. While I can't speak specifically regarding the effect on human bones, I grew up on a farm located on a major river where the fields flooded & receded each Spring...complete with slow draining 'swampy' areas. Sooo...I've spent many, many, many days cleaning up after slow draining flood water and observing the debris it leaves behind.

Trying not to be disrespectful in anyway (bless her heart )...here's one scenario based on the relative bones positions on the grid:

1) "AREA A": The heavier skull along with the arms (radius & ulna), hands and the lower portion of the legs (fibulas) (below the knee) and feet remained essentially in the bag(s) for the duration from the time of disposal to discovery. Note: No tibias listed (tibias are paired w/ the fibulas).

2) "AREA F": After much time & decomposition the trunk and upper legs were first transported** to the position approximately 6-8 feet south of the bags (w/ skull and arms remaining in bags). This is suggested by the heavy ilium (largest portion of the pelvis) and both femurs (long leg bones) and clavicle (collar bone) being found together in this location.

3) "AREA H": The balance of the trunk (ribs, left scapula) being an additional 6-8 feet south may be the result of a subsequent transport event.

4) "AREA I": The remaining ribs & vertebrae being an additional 6-8 feet to the south and west appears to be in the general direction of the low-point drain would be from them partially floating in the receding water.

**While we don't know the detailed history of flooding/receding between June-Dec '08, we do know that Tropical Storm Fay passed through mid-August with ~3 consecutive days (~12" in 24hrs per this source http://orlando.about.com/b/2008/08/22/rainfall-from-tropical-storm-fay.htm) of rain. This may have very well been enough water introduced into this area after 9 weeks of decomposition to have lifted the trunk as described in (2) above, with subsequent movement (3) being from later cycles or scavengers, and (4) from receding water.

All, IMHO, of course.

ETA: Rainfall est. for Fay. & "Area" designations as found in the topigraphical map p3513.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

That still implies flowing water. I need an explanation of why the water would be moving with force. We are not even talking about smooth ground where things can slide and roll from water movement. That area has a high-relief surface with lots of tangles, roots, root masses and living foliage. All of that stuff will hold small objects (unless they are bouyant) in place even with some water movement.

This water accumulates from rain. Water "seeks its own level" and you end up with something like a big puddle. There is stays, and it begins to recede by soaking into the ground and by evaporation. But those processes don't involve water flowing laterally across the land; it's a gradual shrinkage of standing water.

IMO, the patterned scattering of bones suggests wholesale movement of body parts (prior to full skeletonization) by agents (animals and/or humans) - not natural forces.

Excuse me if this is ignorant but did the hurricane hit the area hard? Would that of done it?

Bond, I just read your post. That's a lot of good information.

 

[AZlawyer]

The topographical map is on p3513. It was made in order to "aid in the determination of flood water disbursement."

The topo map is the last page of this document.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/3464-3513redacted.pdf

 

[fortytwo]

Is there one of those maps that shows the terrain? I forget what the proper word is, but in a real map, they show elevations ..somehow this doesn't look like water or animal distribution patterns to me, although it could be either/both. With water patterns, I think you would see a bunch of things washed up against certain points, not so spread out, but many items washed together, including items not related to this case, just general debis and leaves.
With animals one might expect to see a sort of central area with other items of interest to scavengers dragged around, but not things like the balloon, for example. I am not sure if it matters anyway, just a general thought that the site may have been disturbed.

A detailed topographical survey of the scene is in the crime scene docs on pg. 3513.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Thanks for the links & refs to the topo. I edited to include the descriptions it used FWIW...searching for the photo of the area that illustrates best.