Damien Echols' occult motives

[reedus23]

Further signs of desperation or trying to make the facts fit their theory. Domini is morphed into Jason and 2 black males are morphed into 2 white males with faces painted black because of some satanic practice. Really?

 

[reedus23]

The satanic panic that persisted in West Memphis at the time and as is perpetuated by some even today is demonstrated in Officer Massengale's notes. This officer was assigned to crowd control at the scene at 1:16 and already, someone was telling the officer how people worshiped the devil. In this short time frame, O'Tinger also talked of devil worshiping.

The poor children weren't even removed from the scene yet, and already, people were freaking out about the occult and satanism. Damien never had a chance in that environment. I mean, those people had no idea what happened and were already jumping to that conclusion. For all they knew, all 3 committed suicide or fell into a manhole or were bitten by poisonous snakes or who knows what else, yet they immediately jump to satanism.

 

[claudicici]

Also Claudicici, which of the various works on Ramirez's life story would you suggest is the most worthy of reading?

The one I read is "Night Stalker:The life and crimes of Richard Ramirez" by Carlo Philip

 

[claudicici]

Well sure you gave me your opinion on that, but it

Well for starters: do you honestly not see anything fanciful about the notion that drinking blood gives one power, or that one can be inhabited by a spirit and communicate with demons through rituals, as were Echols' beliefs documented in the Individual Progress Report I quoted early in this thread and have linked and referenced multiple times in this since? Does no supporter see anything fanciful in any of that?

No,because I was a Metalhead when I was a teenager and we all read that stuff and thought it was cool.Wicca is full of rituals and magick,that's where he got that stuff also LaVey"s Satanic bible,don't tell me you listen to Metal and havn't read it? When we had boyfriend/girlfriends we all did the blood drinking.None of us killed children or anyone else for that matter though.
And of course if I would have had sessions we doctors back then I would have wanted to appear as weird and as shocking as I could.
It's a security blanket.
Damien just stated that in a recent interview and it's so true.
And again I'm not saying that Damien or someone like Damien could not have committed the murders but there is no evidence to connect him to the victims and crimescene IMO.

 

[reedus23]

No,because I was a Metalhead when I was a teenager and we all read that stuff and thought it was cool.Wicca is full of rituals and magick,that's where he got that stuff also LaVey"s Satanic bible,don't tell me you listen to Metal and havn't read it? When we had boyfriend/girlfriends we all did the blood drinking.None of us killed children or anyone else for that matter though.
And of course if I would have had sessions we doctors back then I would have wanted to appear as weird and as shocking as I could.
It's a security blanket.
Damien just stated that in a recent interview and it's so true.
And again I'm not saying that Damien or someone like Damien could not have committed the murders but there is no evidence to connect him to the victims and crimescene IMO.

Well said.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Several of us have mentioned all of the "evidence" used against Damien. Here is a list:

1. His appearance and beliefs and taste in books and music

2. His notebook in which he quoted many song lyrics and made some very "angsty" comments

3. Fibers, which have been debunked or at least called into question by newer science

4. Hairs, which have since been proven to not be his

5. The softball girls who, at best, mistook sarcasm for truth and, at worst, made up a story for their slice of fame

6. The Hollingsworth clan's siting of Damien and Domini on the Service Road, which Fogleman morphed into Damien and Jason and which, IMO, could easily have been an attempt on the witnesses' part to deflect the minor attention being paid to LG

7. Jessie's confused and coerced ("coached" if you prefer) statements implicating Damien, Jason and himself, which shouldn't have been used, legally, against Damien but was

8. Exhibit 500, which was not used as evidence at his trial - which means he was convicted without it - but is constantly trumpeted by some people as important but which, IMO, proves nothing

Although there were other statements (Jones, for instance) that were not introduced at trial (because the prosecution didn't introduce them, not because Burnett disallowed them), I believe that's the lot of the "evidence" used to convict. Have I missed anything?

 

[kyleb]

No,because I was a Metalhead when I was a teenager and we all read that stuff and thought it was cool.Wicca is full of rituals and magick,that's where he got that stuff also LaVey"s Satanic bible,don't tell me you listen to Metal and havn't read it?

I've read the Satanic Bible, and would never think to lie to anyone by suggesting otherwise. Echols on the other hand told the court:

5 Q. Did he ask you about Anton LaVey?
6 A. Yes, he did.
7 Q. And what did you tell him?
8 A. I said I haven't read anything by him, but I am
9 familiar with him.

So, who is telling the truth between you and Echols here: you who claim Echols got some of his ideas from the Satanic Bible, or Echols who claimed he'd never read anything from LeVey?

When we had boyfriend/girlfriends we all did the blood drinking.None of us killed children or anyone else for that matter though.

Sure, and most people who embrace bigoted beliefs don't kill anyone either, but such fanciful notions of racial superiority do motivate some to kill. The same goes for fanciful beliefs in occultism.

Damien just stated that in a recent interview and it's so true.

What exactly are you alluding to Echols stating in a recent interview? Please quote it here.

I believe that's the lot of the "evidence" used to convict. Have I missed anything?

Well for starters it seems you're missing the fact that discussion of all of the evidence against Echols is largely off topic in this thread. That said, if you bother to create a new thread to discuss that topic I'd be happy to respond there.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

No bother at all!

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9584876#post9584876"]The Supposed "Evidence" Against Damien - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Deleted member 96356]

the original post respectfully snipped by me...

I don't mind you jumping in at all, but you're jumping at the wrong person with your assertion there, as I agree with you to the extent of what I've quoted from you and have never suggested otherwise, but rather have simply referred back to what Cappuccino argued previously

Oh no, I'm sorry if it came across as "jumping at you" with an assertion. I only intended to quote your post as a jumping off point for my thought on the subject and how it relates (in my mind) back to the issue of an occult motive.

As for what evidence found at the scene of the murders suggests occult motives, nothing overt by any reasonable analysis, and arguably nothing at all. However, some investigators at the time considered things like the fact that the boys were stripped naked and bound, their anuses were dilated, and one was castrated and degloved to suggest there might've been occult motivations behind the murders.

And that is where the problem lies, for me. What about the elements you listed above would suggest to the investigators that there might be an occult motive, as opposed to, say, a violent predator? Why did some of the investigators think that, enough to put resources toward pursuing it? On what reasoning? Or did they come up with a theory, minus any evidence, and then go looking for what fit? Was there tunnel vision?

I'm still on the problem of occult motive here, but thank you very much for the other info and links you provided. Appreciated.

 

[kyleb]

And that is where the problem lies, for me. What about the elements you listed above would suggest to the investigators that there might be an occult motive, as opposed to, say, a violent predator?

Again, the WMPD didn't focus on the notion of occult motivations opposed to other possibilities, but rather investigated many people as possible perpetrators who had nothing to do with occultism. Mara Leveritt published a letter from prosecutor John Fogleman which addresses various misconceptions regarding the case including the notion of “Damien Echols tunnel vision” in the last portion of the letter, and that provides some details on other notable suspects, only one of which was known to have any interest in occultism. And again, whether or not one considers the initial suspicions that the murders might've been motivated by an interest in occultism, the fact remains that those suspicions aren't what resulted Echols arrest, but rather it was the direct and circumstantial evidence which I summarized for you previously.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Again, the WMPD didn't focus on the notion of occult motivations opposed to other possibilities, but rather investigated many people as possible perpetrators who had nothing to do with occultism. Mara Leveritt published a letter from prosecutor John Fogleman which addresses various misconceptions regarding the case including the notion of “Damien Echols tunnel vision” in the last portion of the letter, and that provides some details on other notable suspects, only one of which was known to have any interest in occultism. And again, whether or not one considers the initial suspicions that the murders might've been motivated by an interest in occultism, the fact remains that those suspicions aren't what resulted Echols arrest, but rather it was the direct and circumstantial evidence which I summarized for you previously.

So, if the police didn't think the murders were occult-related, and if Damien's arrest wasn't a result of the belief of an occult link to the murders, why do we have a thread (this thread) discussing Damien's "occult motives?"

 

[SmoothOperator]

MGN...I have to say, even though I don't think there was enough evidence to establish their guilt, if I were asked to describe a scenario in which the WM3 did commit the murders, it would probably closely follow what you have laid out. I think it would have been a crime of opportunity. In other words, it was not planned out beforehand. The WM3 were there, the 3 boys happened to come along and the opportunity arose. Any motivation came from the desire to exercise power over another, not some mystical, hocus pocus belief that power was going to be gained by doing it.

Exactly..no planning for this crime..and IMO Damien and Jason know full well their entire downfall was the happenstance fact that Jessie Misskelley unfortunately was with them when this opportunity arose..

 

[reedus23]

Several of us have mentioned all of the "evidence" used against Damien. Here is a list:

1. His appearance and beliefs and taste in books and music

2. His notebook in which he quoted many song lyrics and made some very "angsty" comments

3. Fibers, which have been debunked or at least called into question by newer science

4. Hairs, which have since been proven to not be his

5. The softball girls who, at best, mistook sarcasm for truth and, at worst, made up a story for their slice of fame

6. The Hollingsworth clan's siting of Damien and Domini on the Service Road, which Fogleman morphed into Damien and Jason and which, IMO, could easily have been an attempt on the witnesses' part to deflect the minor attention being paid to LG

7. Jessie's confused and coerced ("coached" if you prefer) statements implicating Damien, Jason and himself, which shouldn't have been used, legally, against Damien but was

8. Exhibit 500, which was not used as evidence at his trial - which means he was convicted without it - but is constantly trumpeted by some people as important but which, IMO, proves nothing

Although there were other statements (Jones, for instance) that were not introduced at trial (because the prosecution didn't introduce them, not because Burnett disallowed them), I believe that's the lot of the "evidence" used to convict. Have I missed anything?

Off of the top of my head that's it.

 

[reedus23]

Again, the WMPD didn't focus on the notion of occult motivations

Then how do you explain this, from the day after the boys were found.

In our conversation I found that Steve and I shared the same opinion that the murders appeared to have overtones of a cult sacrifice.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/desud.html

Also, from the investigatory records on callahans, I found 20 statements that referred in some way to satanism, the occult, devil worshiping etc. IN JUST THE FIRST FIVE DAYS!!! Sure they weren't focused on the notion of the occult.

 

[reedus23]

Again, the WMPD didn't focus on the notion of occult motivations opposed to other possibilities, but rather investigated many people as possible perpetrators who had nothing to do with occultism. Mara Leveritt published a letter from prosecutor John Fogleman which addresses various misconceptions regarding the case including the notion of “Damien Echols tunnel vision” in the last portion of the letter, and that provides some details on other notable suspects, only one of which was known to have any interest in occultism. And again, whether or not one considers the initial suspicions that the murders might've been motivated by an interest in occultism, the fact remains that those suspicions aren't what resulted Echols arrest, but rather it was the direct and circumstantial evidence which I summarized for you previously.

Thanks for the letter. Now I see where one of your earlier posts comes from. The fact that others called in tips and they had to clear those individuals in order to make their case against the WM3 doesn't mean they didn't have tunnel vision. What I am curious about is what exactly did the WMPD do to clear some of those suspects. Some they do say in their reports, such as one was shot and killed in Texas so he was cleared. Others, though, there is absolutely no documentation that the WMPD did anything beyond write a statement on a piece of paper that says "cleared" or something along those lines.

Take the guy drilling peepholes. They seized evidence and took samples but on the same day they interviewed him at his house and seized these items, Ridge writes a note that simply says he is not considered a suspect and nothing further is done. No idea if the samples were ever tested(so if you know, I'd love to read that too). It also begs the question of why did they take samples if you knew you weren't going to do anything with them because he wasn't a suspect. Or did they take them in case a connection was made because they were concerned by the fact he knew facts about the crime, was nervous, collected newspaper articles, had knives and clubs, had no alibi and had the Ithaca connection, in which case if they were concerned enough to take the samples for those reasons, why didn't they follow up on him?

 

[claudicici]

I've read the Satanic Bible, and would never think to lie to anyone by suggesting otherwise. Echols on the other hand told the court:


So, who is telling the truth between you and Echols here: you who claim Echols got some of his ideas from the Satanic Bible, or Echols who claimed he'd never read anything from LeVey?

.

I do think he read it,who didn't? But who could blame him to lie about it when all the other stuff he admitted to reading and did not have the word "satanic" in it was used to make him look like a satanist? Then again maybe he did not get a chance to read it,maybe it wasn't available in that town.It's not like he could have googled it back then.
Oh and I wanted to say something about the letters he wrote when he was incarcerated.To me they prove his innocence more than incriminate him.I can totally relate to the way he felt.He was put into an unimaginable situation by a society that he already didn't trust and felt misunderstood and prosecuted by.He cries out in those letters that he is being blamed for something he did not do and his coping mechanism kicks in by imagining he will kill himself on Halloween and come back to revenge what happened to him.Same with saying his son stole his soul,this guy is a teenage dad who imagined once his son was born life will change for the better instead he's faced with something over the top unbelievable.
As far as childhood trauma I could imagine he witnessed some of the abuse his stepdad allegedly did to his sister or he was abused himself.Or neither him or his sister were abused and he made it up just to make the fact that he lived in a crappy situation sound even more desperate.

 

[claudicici]

What exactly are you alluding to Echols stating in a recent interview? Please quote it here.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/video/damien-echols-on-west-memphis-murder-case/2360101844001
First minute of interview

 

[claudicici]

Sure, and most people who embrace bigoted beliefs don't kill anyone either, but such fanciful notions of racial superiority do motivate some to kill. The same goes for fanciful beliefs in occultism.

I agree.

Sorry for all the separate posts in a row to answer where I was addressed,I don't know how to do the multi quoting in one post :blushing:

 

[kyleb]

So, if the police didn't think the murders were occult-related, and if Damien's arrest wasn't a result of the belief of an occult link to the murders, why do we have a thread (this thread) discussing Damien's "occult motives?"

For the same reason we'd have a thread discussing pedophilia motives if the murders had been committed by someone with well documented history of pedophilia. Or at least that is if a person with history pedophilia committed the murders yet a bunch of people refused to accept the evidence which proves that beyond any reasonable doubt, and insist the person wasn't a pedophile at all, or at least not such so much of a pedophile as to have murdered the children.

Then how do you explain this, from the day after the boys were found.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/desud.html

The same way I explain these notes on Gary Chadwick and the many other documents reguarding invesgation of people who had no connection to occultism: the WMPD considered many possible motivations behind the murders.

I do think he read it,who didn't? But who could blame him to lie about it when all the other stuff he admitted to reading and did not have the word "satanic" in it was used to make him look like a satanist?

Who could blame a person for lying after swearing an oath to tell the truth? Anyone who has any respect for truth that takes a moment to think the situation through. That said, I suspect Echols might've been telling the truth when he said he never read LeVey, as LaVeyan Satanism isn't really occult at all, but rather simply a philosophical system which uses the Christian concept of Satan as a symbol for the rejection of puritanical dogma. The Church of Satan does engage in rituals, but they're done purely for their psychological effects, not based on any fanciful notions of conjuring demons or such which infatuated Echols. So I figure Echols likely didn't ever read the Satanic Bible, and he probably would've become more grounded in reality if he had.

Granted Echols obviously did lie on the stand about other things, him dyeing having regularly been in the neighborhood of the murder scene and after being caught in that lie his attempt to defend himself "when you said "neighborhood," I just didn't know what you are talking about, what that neighborhood is" are flagrant examples, though rather off topic here. For an example more on topic, it seems likely he was trying hide his true self when he was asked to explain the quotes on the cover page of his notebook:

"Life is but a walking shadow. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." That's from "A Midsummer Night's Dream" by William Shakespeare. "Pure black looking clear my work is soon done here. Try getting back from me that which used to be." That is off a Metallica Tape called "...And Justice For All" - talks about how warped the court systems are, stuff like that. The other one is from "The Twilight Zone" - "I've kicked open a lot of doors in my time, and I am willing to wait for this one to open, and when it does, I'll be waiting."

Can anyone else here spot the falsehoods in that? At least the explanations for the first quotes are partially false, I've not looked into the third nearly enough to say one way or another regarding that.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/video/damien-echols-on-west-memphis-murder-case/2360101844001
First minute of interview

Oh, he talks about wearing black as a security blanket. I'd taken your mention of the interview in the context of our or conversation to to suggest he talked about his belief that drinking blood gives him power, that he can communicate with demons through rituals, that he's possessed by the spirit of of woman who was murdered by her husband, and and the various other fanciful and dark beliefs which he told his doctors about prior to the murders. If he ever stops hiding under the guise of being just another guy who likes to wear black and listen to heavy metal and actually starts honestly discussing his well documented and very dark occult beliefs, that's an interview I want to see.

 

[reedus23]

For the same reason we'd have a thread discussing pedophilia motives if the murders had been committed by someone with well documented history of pedophilia. Or at least that is if a person with history pedophilia committed the murders yet a bunch of people refused to accept the evidence which proves that beyond a reasonable doubt, and insist the person wasn't a pedophile at all, or at least not such so much of a pedophile as to have murdered the children.

One of the issues that I have is that the evidence surrounding this crime pointed to a pedophile as much as it did the occult.