DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025 #2

[iamshadow21]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/all-67-victims-positively-identified-washington-helicopter-plane-collision-2025-02-05/

Idk why a comprehensive lisr of victims hasnt been released yet.

Not all families want that degree of media attention when they're grieving.

 

[DS2021]

Not all families want that degree of media attention when they're grieving.

Good point

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Here's a link to a video made by Juan Browne who is a former Air Force pilot and a current first officer flying the 777.

He talks about the blocked communications that hindered the UH-60 pilots awareness that the CRJ was going to use runway 33. He also had the opportunity to check out a UH-60L,like the accident aircraft, at his local airstrip and goes over the baro,radar altimeters and radios.

 

[PayrollNerd]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/all-67-victims-positively-identified-washington-helicopter-plane-collision-2025-02-05/

Idk why a comprehensive lisr of victims hasnt been released yet.

Do they even do that anymore? I remember that being routine for passenger lists to be published in the newspapers. The internet makes it too easy to zero in those somebody thinks is at fault and victimize survivors. I’m thinking it was equipment failure. Pilots are so well trained that I doubt they would intentionally break a distance requirement.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

“They are all so traumatized by this,” Robert A. Clifford, the attorney handling the pending litigation, said of the victim’s loved ones.

https://fox59.com/news/national-world/family-of-dc-plane-crash-victim-files-250m-claims-against-faa-army/

“Casey was an incredible human being. He was a giver. He was a loving husband and father. He enjoyed coaching his boys on their youth soccer and little league baseball teams. They will be grieving him for the rest of their lives that will never be the same,” Clifford said in the release. “This crash involves complex matters, and the family deserves answers as to what happened to their loved one.”

Family of DCA midair collision passenger files pre-suit claims against FAA, US Army

The family of Casey Crafton filed claims saying they intend to sue the government for wrongful death.

www.wusa9.com

 

[sds71]

NPR host remembers his girlfriend who died in D.C. plane crash :


In her professional life, Kiah was a civil rights lawyer, fighting for the rights of vulnerable people and challenging abuses of power in the legal system. The day after the crash, she was supposed to have been in Boston to be part of a seminar on movement lawyering, litigating on behalf of social movements. And she was an incoming professor at Howard University School of Law, where she hoped to shape the next generation of Black civil rights lawyers — a dream job for her, Adrian says.

In her personal life, Adrian remembers her contagious energy, and the way she'd send handwritten cards to her friends for no apparent reason.

"She loved to ask you, 'What was a magical moment from your day?'"

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/20/g-s1-49853/dc-plane-crash-american-airlines

 

[Rikissa]

I got a Facebook post from a musician I follow about the female pilot, as he is a family friend. It was a lovely post, telling about the kind of person she had been, a great loss.

 

[sds71]

NEW (and sobering) chart released in the NTSB's preliminary report on the midair collision near DCA.Helicopter Route 4 was separated BY ONLY 75 FEET of altitude from the normal approach path to runway 33.This was an accident waiting to happen.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1899598695798108174

After deadly midair collision over Potomac, NTSB wants helicopter ban near D.C. area's Reagan Airport

There's an "intolerable risk to aviation safety" with helicopters and planes flying too close to one another near DCA.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[PrairieWind]

NEW (and sobering) chart released in the NTSB's preliminary report on the midair collision near DCA.Helicopter Route 4 was separated BY ONLY 75 FEET of altitude from the normal approach path to runway 33.This was an accident waiting to happen.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1899598695798108174

After deadly midair collision over Potomac, NTSB wants helicopter ban near D.C. area's Reagan Airport

There's an "intolerable risk to aviation safety" with helicopters and planes flying too close to one another near DCA.

www.nbcnews.com

I certainly think there need to be some major changes in the flight routes, but at the same time there is some misreporting going on here about these routes. Helicopters in this route are requesting and beging given permission to be there but the helicopter pilots are responsible for keeping separation from the jets, ie wait and fly after they pass. The 75' foot issue is technically correct, but but it should never actually be a factor if the helicopter pilots obey their responsibilities. That didn't happen here and we need to know why AND change these routes. But we need to be honest in the discussion.

 

[Joe Friday]

This is the reason why the two helicopter pilots had an altitude discrepancy when they discussed what altitude they were at. They had the barometric pressure setting on their altimeters set differently.


The cockpit area was heavily fragmented. The left seat pilot’s barometric altimeter and horizontal situation indicator were found separate from the cockpit area. The left barometric altimeter Kollsman window read between 29.88 and 29.89 inches of mercury (inHg).
A portion of the right seat pilot’s instrument cluster was found separated from the cockpit structure but remained connected via hoses and cables. The right barometric altimeter Kollsman window was set to 29.87 inHg.

JMO as a certificate holding private pilot.

 

[Joe Friday]

I brought up earlier the fact of how much time had passed between the PAT25 crew being told by the tower of the CRJ and how quickly the male pilot of the Blackhawk responded. I concluded this by listening to the Live ATC tapes online. This is affirmed in the preliminary report.

The times given is the time at the start of the transmission. The tower controller informed the PAT25 crew of the CRJ at 2046:02 and it would have taken about a second for the controller to give that information. The male pilot on the PAT25 responded at 2046:08 that he had the CRJ in sight. That only gives him about three or four seconds to find an airplane that is over 6 miles away and approximately 90 degrees off to their right. I have flown enough and been warned by controllers about other aircraft in my path to know that you cannot find an airplane that far away in that amount of time. This pilot was complacent and responded to the controller with what was needed to be said in order to continue on with their flight.


At 2046:02, a radio transmission from the tower was audible on flight 5342’s CVR informing PAT25 that traffic just south of the Wilson Bridge was a CRJ (flight 5342) at 1,200 ft circling to runway 33.
CVR data from the helicopter indicated that the portion of the transmission stating the CRJ was “circling” may not have been received by the crew of PAT25. The word “circling” is heard in ATC communications as well as the airplane’s CVR, but not on the helicopter’s CVR.
At 2046:08, the PAT25 crew reported that they had the traffic in sight and requested to maintain visual separation. The controller approved the request. At this time, the distance between the two aircraft was about 6.5 nm. Figure 2 shows each aircraft’s approximate position at 2046:02, when the controller first advised the crew of PAT25 of flight 5342.


This happens again when the controller again warned the PAT25 crew of the CRJ, with only a two second difference in the time before the male pilot of PAT25 responded with the same phase he has likley used hundreds of times before " traffic in sight, request visual separation"

At 2047:42, or 17 seconds before impact, a radio transmission from the tower was audible on both CVRs directing PAT25 to pass behind the CRJ. CVR data from the helicopter indicated that the portion of the transmission that stated “pass behind the” may not have been received by the PAT25 crew, as the transmission was stepped on by a 0.8-second mic key from PAT25.
In response, at 2047:44, the crew of PAT25 indicated that traffic was in sight and requested visual separation, which was approved by DCA tower. CVR data indicated that, following this transmission, the IP told the pilot they believed ATC was asking for the helicopter to move left toward the east bank of the Potomac.

JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

American Airlines isn't having a very good 2025 so far. Now a plane catches fire in Denver.

 

[PrairieWind]

The FAA is permanently closing that flight corridor used by the helicopter. It is also looking closely at some other congested flight corridors in other cities.

MSN

 

[Betty P]

The FAA is permanently closing that flight corridor used by the helicopter. It is also looking closely at some other congested flight corridors in other cities.

MSN

Great idea. IIRC, most of the helicopter traffic along the Potomac/National Airport area was for VIPs in government and the military flying to local civilian and military airports (Andrews, etc.). The top dogs have limos they can take and the rest should call a cab or Uber. It has the added benefit of saving poor working class taxpayers some money.

 

[Elley Mae]

On now

Transportation Officials Testify on DC Midair Collision

National Transportation Safety Board Chair Jennifer Homendy and other transportation officials testify on a deadly midair collision between a passenger jet and a military helicopter near a Washington, DC airport.

www.c-span.org

 

[Cryptic]

Helicopters in this route are requesting and beging given permission to be there but the helicopter pilots are responsible for keeping separation from the jets, ie wait and fly after they pass.

I wonder to what extent in practice the controllers can truly refuse to allow a military helicopter from entering the air space?

If being granted permission was the expected norm, a better description might be:

Helicopters announce they are entering the airspace. Controllers then acknowledge that they have entered. Helicopter crews then take responsibility to keep "safe" distances of separation.

 

[PrairieWind]

I wonder to what extent in practice the controllers can truly refuse to allow a military helicopter from entering the air space?

If being granted permission was the expected norm, a better description might be:

Helicopters announce they are entering the airspace. Controllers then acknowledge that they have entered. Helicopter crews then take responsibility to keep "safe" distances of separation.

From listing to the testimony, the FAA controls the space. They can deny access to the Army in a normal situation (in declared emergencies I think that changes). But in the situation as it occurred here, the helicopters fly in their corridor and then as they approach the airport flight paths, they request permission to cross from ATC. ATC then advises when they cross and what to be aware of (ie specific traffic approaching). The helicopter are supposed to allow the traffic to cross and then move behind in the gap between planes. It is never ok for a helicopter to be in the same space and attempt to fly under an inbound plane. This is why the whole 75' 100' comments are irrelevant. For reasons still unknown the Army pilots just flew right into the path of the incoming jet. In my opinion, the blame for this accident lays with the Army pilots. Sure, the airspace use was not ideal, but it was workable and if everyone did what the were told this wouldn't have happened. The Army needs to re-address training for its pilots.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

For reasons still unknown the Army pilots just flew right into the path of the incoming jet.

I can't see how it could be possible they saw the airplane. For some reason(s), they didn't see it.

 

[sds71]

A close call between a Delta Air Lines Airbus A319 taking off from Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport and a US Air Force T-38 jet, often used by the military for training, sounded alarms in the cockpit of the passenger plane Friday.

Delta 2983 was departing Reagan Airport around 3:15 p.m. and heading to Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport for a regularly scheduled flight.

Delta did not identify the other jet involved, but a review of tracking data from FlightRadar24 shows an Air Force T-38 jet flying past the Delta plane and DCA airport going more than 350 miles per hour at 800 feet. The military jet took off and landed at Langley Air Force Base, in Hampton, Virginia.

The Delta aircraft was cleared for takeoff at around 3:15 p.m. ET, while four U.S. Air Force T-38 Talons were inbound to Arlington National Cemetery for a flyover, the FAA said in a statement.

The Delta aircraft received an onboard alert that another aircraft was nearby and air traffic controllers issued corrective instructions to both aircraft, the FAA reported.

The FAA will investigate the incident.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/28/us/delta-military-jet-close-call-dca/index.html

 

[Charlot123]

I can't see how it could be possible they saw the airplane. For some reason(s), they didn't see it.

From listing to the testimony, the FAA controls the space. They can deny access to the Army in a normal situation (in declared emergencies I think that changes). But in the situation as it occurred here, the helicopters fly in their corridor and then as they approach the airport flight paths, they request permission to cross from ATC. ATC then advises when they cross and what to be aware of (ie specific traffic approaching). The helicopter are supposed to allow the traffic to cross and then move behind in the gap between planes. It is never ok for a helicopter to be in the same space and attempt to fly under an inbound plane. This is why the whole 75' 100' comments are irrelevant. For reasons still unknown the Army pilots just flew right into the path of the incoming jet. In my opinion, the blame for this accident lays with the Army pilots. Sure, the airspace use was not ideal, but it was workable and if everyone did what the were told this wouldn't have happened. The Army needs to re-address training for its pilots.

A helicopter's cabin does not give one 360 degrees of the view. To start with, why did they have only one crew member in the back when two are required? Then, any distraction for one of these three people might be enough.
I agree with @PrairieWind that the blame lies with the helicopter pilots.