DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

[Charlot123]

See my above post

Yes. I am glad that they finally released the name. (Withholding it made the military look odd, tbh.)

In the meantime, I read what the army posts, and here is my opinion. North America has no enforced conscription service. Many countries do.

Military service - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

“Norway, Sweden, North Korea, Israel, and Eritrea conscript both men and women”.

There are way more countries that allow women to serve on a voluntary basis. This has nothing to do with inclusivity; it is mostly, understanding that if under attack, women, too, have to be able to protect themselves, their families and their compatriots. So, a woman pilot is not any issue it is a pragmatic necessity.

Her being in top 20% makes it a “training accident.” Now, the military should post decent obituaries, mourn their comrades, give the relatives good pensions, as young kids were left. Acknowledge mistakes. Issue new rules or regulations to avoid it.

 

[Chimera]

So the setup of 3 in the Blackhawk was already failing as a method of readiness in the event of a catastrophic attack on the US Capital?

If it can mistakenly run straight into a commercial airliner about 7 times it's weight and size, under good weather and good communications, the Army should be taken to task for their incompetency.

Bbm.
I have utmost respect for our armed forces.
In this particular crash I admit I have questions that were formerly directed at ATC but now also at the Army ?

There was a break somewhere in communications--unless this was altimeter/aircraft malfunction.
So sad and horrible to think that this tragedy was somehow preventable.
Imo.

 

[Sundog]

I didn’t see this in the news. What airline was it?

It was a South Korean airline called Jeju Air and I believe it was flying from Thailand to South Korea on December 30th. It was a Boeing 737-800 jet and only two of the 181 people on board survived. There is a thread on this plane crash here on WS, I'll see if I can find the link. The South Korean probe after the crash states that they found duck remains in both engines of the airplane. The aircraft made an emergency declaration for a bird strike just before landing.

Jeju Air is the third major airline in South Korea after Korean Air and Asiana Airlines. They appear to be a lower cost alternative and fly domestically and regional international routes. In any event, it was the worse airline crash disaster in South Korea's history.

 

[Deleted member 352484]

I didn't catch the entire press conference. Were the reports of the Blackhawk being "at least half a mile off its approved path" brought up?

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

The CRJ was at 325 feet at the time of impact “plus or minus 25-feet” the NTSB revealed at the press conference, Saturday.

“At one point, very close to the impact, there was a slight change in pitch, an increase in pitch,” NTSB board member Todd Inman said of the nose of the plane.
(…)
However, that maneuver was at the “last second,” and was not in time to avoid being hit by the helicopter.
(…)
The ATC tower’s estimation of the plane’s altitude on impact did not perfectly align with the dataset recovered from the aircraft’s on-board recording device.

The ATC tower had the plane at 200 feet at the time of impact — meaning there is a discrepancy of 100 feet between the measurements of the plane and of the controllers on the ground.

American Airlines pilot may have attempted last-minute move to avoid collision: NTSB

“There was a change in pitch,” NTSB board member Todd Inman said of the nose of the plane.

nypost.com

 

[Simply Southern]

Would you be willing to break this down? Are these abnormalities, etc.

From your post:
I'm confused about the 325' +/- reading for the AA and the 200' reading was that the Blackhawk or the reading in the control tower?

Did you note the AA runway change to 33 was 4 mins before the crash...."after a discussion between the crew and tower"

I defer to @RANCH explanation above.

Yes, there was a last minute change to RW 33, apparently a plane was waiting to take off on RW 1, possibly the one we saw in the video to the far right.

They did not release the discussion verbatim, said transcript should be ready by tomorrow. I'm very interested in this discussion between the crew and the tower. That kind of threw up a flag for me and the change so late in the descent.
MO

 

[cledco]

I have no knowledge of the training or operations inside a heli/ATC/etc. Am I understanding these reports correctly that she was not only an experienced pilot but a top 20% pilot (or is top 20% cadet a different metric)?
To someone with knowledge, how does this impact your perception of this event? Does it at all?
(Set aside anything race, gender, etc. - I am curious based on the metrics/experience)

'Earned her place': Friends grieve Rebecca Lobach, US Army pilot killed in DC crash

The Army withheld the name of Capt. Rebecca Lobach, the US Army pilot killed in a disastrous crash on Wednesday, for an extra day.

www.yahoo.com

Further clarification in response to your edit:

Most of what's going to be available from any news outlets isn't going to say much of anything about her competence as a pilot. The news media doesn't know and doesn't care to learn how most of this stuff works or what it means. One would expect a pilot to be in the top 20% of their ROTC class, cadets have very little choice in what they end up doing and that's the only way to increase your odds of getting into something like aviation. Officers are only ever going to speak well of their colleagues both as a matter of etiquette, and also what the PAO is going to allow to be passed on to the press. Some of her other engagements are potentially of note, but need more context; every unit has SHARP victim advocate positions to fill, White House assignments may only draw from local units, etc.. Unless consistent anecdotal testimony from people she ferried emerges or her records from courses she would have gone through her first couple years in get FOIA'd, it's honestly not really something we're going to be able to guess from afar.

 

[Herat]

Bbm.
I have utmost respect for our armed forces.
In this particular crash I admit I have questions that were formerly directed at ATC but now also at the Army ?

There was a break somewhere in communications--unless this was altimeter/aircraft malfunction.
So sad and horrible to think that this tragedy was somehow preventable.
Imo.

I was referring to the comment by a former Blackhawk commander that there should be a crew of 4, not 3 in the helicopter

 

[Luna20]

Yes they are.

The CRJ was pointed towards the cameras in the videos we have seen while the helicopter was looking at the side of the airliner.

Did the helicopter actually see the CRJ before they banked left to line up with runway 33? I guess that's possible and PAT25 lost track of it later. Then they mistakenly thought another aircraft further away coming up the Potomac for runway 01 was the traffic that ATC was warning them about. JMO.

It makes sense that they could have seen the other plane and responded to ATC according to that plane.

What would be the reason for not seeing the CRJ in question? It could be a number of things but if they saw it they would have taken action to get out of the way.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I defer to @RANCH explanation above.

Yes, there was a last minute change to RW 33, apparently a plane was waiting to take off on RW 1, possibly the one we saw in the video to the far right.

They did not release the discussion verbatim, said transcript should be ready by tomorrow. I'm very interested in this discussion between the crew and the tower. That kind of threw up a flag for me and the change so late in the descent.
MO

What could be interesting about the runway change may be found in the cockpit voice recorder. There was about a 20 second delay from when the controller asked the CRJ if they would accept runway 33 instead of the preferred longer straight in runway 01.

Did the pilots of the CRJ have a discussion amongst themselves about whether is would be alright to use runway 33? The airplane that landed right ahead of the accident plane was asked to do the same runway change and they declined. JMO.

 

[Vern]

If that person was in control and it was flying at wrong altitude and on the wrong path their name should be front and center, and not remain anonymous.

Jmo

Names don't change the facts. The facts and findings of the investigation aren't yet known. We'll have to wait and see if that person ctually was:
"in control and it was flying at wrong altitude" as you put it.

Well, other families need answers.

I don’t care about gender and other personal details.

One question: I’d like to know about the grades and level of the pilots. Their performance at flight school and on base. Were they tops, middle or bottom? Nothing else matters. If they were tops (and tops make mistakes, too) it will be “an unlucky training accident.” If these people had poor grades from the get go, the question would be, why were they even employed at Fort Belvoir?

Yep, I agree, that's the case, they'd need to wait until the investigation is fully complete and the results known then to have answers.

We're no where near that stage yet.

 

[Boxer]

I was referring to the comment by a former Blackhawk commander that there should be a crew of 4, not 3 in the helicopter

I would need more authoritative source on that number. The black Hawk might need 2 crew chiefs for instance when transporting 10 troops.

Being off route 4 is the issue. WHY?
And with an instructor in the second pilot seat evaluating the flight.

 

[Tiff23fr]

Further clarification in response to your edit:

Most of what's going to be available from any news outlets isn't going to say much of anything about her competence as a pilot. The news media doesn't know and doesn't care to learn how most of this stuff works or what it means. One would expect a pilot to be in the top 20% of their ROTC class, cadets have very little choice in what they end up doing and that's the only way to increase your odds of getting into something like aviation. Officers are only ever going to speak well of their colleagues both as a matter of etiquette, and also what the PAO is going to allow to be passed on to the press. Some of her other engagements are potentially of note, but need more context; every unit has SHARP victim advocate positions to fill, White House assignments may only draw from local units, etc.. Unless consistent anecdotal testimony from people she ferried emerges or her records from courses she would have gone through her first couple years in get FOIA'd, it's honestly not really something we're going to be able to guess from afar.

Thank you very much for expanding/clarifying.

 

[Boxer]

What could be interesting about the runway change may be found in the cockpit voice recorder. There was about a 20 second delay from when the controller asked the CRJ if they would accept runway 33 instead of the preferred longer straight in runway 01.

Did the pilots of the CRJ have a discussion amongst themselves about whether is would be alright to use runway 33? The airplane that landed right ahead of the accident plane was asked to do the same runway change and they declined. JMO.

33 was a shorter runway than 31.
That's why they descended further than the tower thought they had, the CRJ pilots wanted every inch of pavement.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

It makes sense that they could have seen the other plane and responded to ATC according to that plane.

What would be the reason for not seeing the CRJ in question? It could be a number of things but if they saw it they would have taken action to get out of the way.

In an urban environment near a very busy airport at night there's a lot of lights from the ground and in the air for pilots to see. Getting confused about the traffic ATC is talking about doesn't surprise me at all.

Especially when the controller is not giving the pilots specific information like " Traffic ahead 12:00 at 1/4 mile". All PAT25 got was "Do you see the CRJ?" I'm sure they saw a CRJ but it wasn't the right one. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

33 was a shorter runway than 31.
That's why they descended further than the tower thought they had, the CRJ pilots wanted every inch of pavement.

Yes. The CRJ would not want to land long on that short runway so they would have to get low to make the landing safe. JMO.

 

[Boxer]

Yes. The CRJ would not want to land long on that short runway so they would have to get low to make the landing safe. JMO.

Should not have been offered 33 while a helicopter on route 4 IMO.

But its probably not a rule they had in the tower- but should have had.

 

[Chimera]

Would you be willing to break this down? Are these abnormalities, etc.

From your post:
I'm confused about the 325' +/- reading for the AA and the 200' reading was that the Blackhawk or the reading in the control tower?

Did you note the AA runway change to 33 was 4 mins before the crash...."after a discussion between the crew and tower"

Bbm.
JMO-- Four minutes isn't very long.
So, was it because the control tower saw the helicopter heading that way and surmised they (heli.) were already too high and way above the 200 ft ceiling ?

The more that comes out about this crash the more I fear it was completely preventable.
As in, someone messed up and I'm not ready to say who since I still have no firm idea.
Still not discounting the readouts/dials/altimeter being wonky, though.
Omo.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Should not have been offered 33 while a helicopter on route 4 IMO.

But its probably not a rule they had in the tower- but should have had.

I agree. Good situational awareness would have the controller not try to force all of those aircraft into both landing and transiting.

It would have been safer for the CRJ to be told to go around and re-sequence for landing. JMO.

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

Yes. I am glad that they finally released the name. (Withholding it made the military look odd, tbh.)

In the meantime, I read what the army posts, and here is my opinion. North America has no enforced conscription service. Many countries do.

Military service - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

“Norway, Sweden, North Korea, Israel, and Eritrea conscript both men and women”.

There are way more countries that allow women to serve on a voluntary basis. This has nothing to do with inclusivity; it is mostly, understanding that if under attack, women, too, have to be able to protect themselves, their families and their compatriots. So, a woman pilot is not any issue it is a pragmatic necessity.

Her being in top 20% makes it a “training accident.” Now, the military should post decent obituaries, mourn their comrades, give the relatives good pensions, as young kids were left. Acknowledge mistakes. Issue new rules or regulations to avoid it.

The military was respecting the wishes of her family. I don’t think it made them look odd at all. IMO it was the right thing to do and very honorable