DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

[Knitty]

MOD NOTE:

Folks, you know that politics aren't allowed for discussion here. We know it's hard. Choose whoever you'd like for a private discussion, but keep it off the thread.

 

[bestill]

MOD NOTE:

Folks, you know that politics aren't allowed for discussion here. We know it's hard. Choose whoever you'd like for a private discussion, but keep it off the thread.

Thank you!!

 

[Chimera]

What I think we know now:

5) ATC contacted Black Hawk a minute or so before collision to make sure they had visuals on AA 5342. But I did not hear a confirmation from Black Hawk to ATC. (or did I miss something?)


What I think I would like to know:
1) Did the Black Hawk ever acknowledge the message from ATC that they were supposed to look out for the air craft?


I am just like everyone that wants to know the answers and will just have to wait to see what the conclusion is when all the evidence is known and documented.

Bbm.
Snipped for focus.
I didn't hear that either, despite the releasing of part of the air traffic controller's communications with both aircrafts ?
I thought the helicopter had acknowledged that they had a visual -- but some think they meant the other plane that was ascending ?
Or-- what IF the heli. never received that info. ?
Imo.

 

[Elley Mae]

“Something caused him not to see that aircraft … so I’d just like to know is there an answer to the question of why they didn’t deviate from their flight course at all — speed or altitude.”

Before the crash, the pilot acknowledged a message from air traffic control warning about a passenger plane in its flight path.

Seasoned Black Hawk pilot reveals what potentially went wrong before deadly DC mid-air crash

A retired Army helicopter pilot shared insights into what may have caused Wednesday’s deadly mid-air collision over the Potomac River in Washington, DC.

nypost.com

Gaub suggested the helicopter pilot might have been looking at the wrong plane and didn’t see American Airlines Flight 5342 before the collision.

The Pentagon confirmed Thursday that pilots in the doomed US Army UH-60 helicopter were using night vision goggles to help them see during the training flight.

…

Can’t c/p the last paragraph, saying age of blackhawks probably has no black box.

 

[Seattle1]

Former Navy Helicopter Pilot Jeff Huddleston talked to NBC/4 DC earlier today but this was live so his complete explanation not available to link but I want to put his name here as he's a worthy resource.

The video above is a limited explanation by Huddleston about the aviation rules/requirements of the helicopter flying at Reagan National.

 

[bestill]

This is so darn sad!

 

[Jade]

So Congress added more air traffic to this airport that was known to be extremely short staffed on ATC?!? SMH

The Reagan National control tower is 85 percent staffed, the source said, with 24 of 28 positions filled.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/plane-crash-dca-potomac-washington-dc-01-29-25/index.html

​

 

[shetalksinstereo]

Right, its standard operating procedure after these accidents for the leaders (Secy Transportation, etc.) to express sympathy, state what facts are known about the event, then carefully explain that NTSB is investigating and will provide a summary soon.

They usually have to repeat many times that everyone has to be patient for the NTSB preliminary report and later final report. They'll usually say whether the black box has been located, talk about family and retrieving victims, who is working, play 911 and ATC recordings, but most don't speculate.

The news media understands these rules and reports as best they can with the information that's available - interviews with witnesses, aviation experts, etc. It's usually enough. It has to be. NTSB has to do their job without undue influence from the government, media, airline execs, etc. Those are the rules of the game and everyone has been following them since at least the early 1960s.

Frankly, I was kind of surprised to see the CEO of American Airlines quickly declaring they weren't at fault. Maybe I'm wrong, but the CEO's don't usually make such a declarative statement so early. They may not be at fault, but there's a process, procedures to follow. Wait until NTSB gives a report.

JMO

This ^^^^ and they usually say they will cooperate fully with the investigation.

 

[JudiK]

What I think we know now:
1) Flight AA 5342 was given clearance to change from runway 1 to runway 33 which is further north and east.
2) Black Hawk came in from the land mass between Potomac and Washington Channel basically heading south
3) Flight path shows AA 5342 veering left towards runway 33 about a half a mile north of the "regular" runway 1.
4) Flight AA 5342 did not change its trajectory. Angled semicircle to line up with RW 1.
5) ATC contacted Black Hawk a minute or so before collision to make sure they had visuals on AA 5342. But I did not hear a confirmation from Black Hawk to ATC. (or did I miss something?)
6) The two collided in the Potomac about an eight of a mile from runway 33.

What I think I would like to know:
1) Did the Black Hawk ever acknowledge the message from ATC that they were supposed to look out for the air craft?
2) Assuming I was correct in seeing 2 planes lined behind AA 5342 to the south, was there also maybe a previous plane ahead of AA 5342 that landed ahead of AA 5342 but on runway 1 and thus maybe the Black Hawk thought that is the way that AA 5342 would go? I know this is not how it is supposed to work leaving way too much to chance.
3) Did the Black Hawk have a collision avoidance system and was it on or is it turned off when they go into night vision mode? Also, is there a black box for the helicopter that could shed light on cockpit voice communications and sounds?
4) Why (allegedly) did the ATC give such short notice to the Black Hawk. Was it because he got a warning on his radar system?

I am just like everyone that wants to know the answers and will just have to wait to see what the conclusion is when all the evidence is known and documented.

I'd like to know who the VIP was that was in the helicopter.

 

[Elley Mae]

In audio from the air traffic control tower around the time of the crash, a controller is heard asking the helicopter, “PAT25, do you have the CRJ in sight?” referring to the passenger aircraft.

Plane Crash DC: Control tower audio seconds before jet-helicopter crash | World News - The Times of India

US News: A regional passenger jet carrying around 60 people collided mid-air with a military helicopter near Ronald Reagan National Airport, leading to a crash

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

….

Just heard a pilot on radio and he said that the controller should have asked, pat 25 , do you see the crj at 12:00 and didn’t say that.

Jmo

 

[indicolite22]

I'd like to know who the VIP was that was in the helicopter.

Only the crew was on board.

 

[Bounceycat]

I'd like to know who the VIP was that was in the helicopter.

There was no VIP. There were three military members aboard, all have been found.

 

[Tiff23fr]

Does anyone have insight into how elevation is determined and adjusted? Is it assigned? Is it manual entry? Etc. Appreciate any insight


“He also questioned why the helicopter and American Airlines jet were at the same elevation. He said that the American Airlines flight was on the correct path”

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/30/nx-s1-5280198/plane-crash-washington-dc-helicopter-potomac

 

[dalsglen]

That is a possibility. At night, there are fewer visual references for the eyes and the mind to use when judging speed, size and distance.

They were equipped with night vision goggles too. Were these analogue or digital? I saw a brilliant post from a military pilot on this subject this morning, sharing just how bad flare can be especially in co largely urban areas where lights are all over the place, unfortunately it was on reddit so unshareable here.

But I was just having a look at this website and wonder what they were using.
Advantages and Disadvantages of Digital Night Vision Systems

Disadvantages of Digital Night Vision Systems​

They can also be more susceptible to glare compared to analogue systems. Glare occurs when bright light sources, such as streetlights or headlights, appear as bright spots or streaks in the image, reducing visibility and potentially affecting the user’s ability to discern important details. While some digital systems have glare reduction features, it is still worth considering the potential for glare when using these systems, especially in urban environments or areas with a high concentration of artificial lighting.

Image Lag and Delay​

Digital night vision systems may experience image lag and delay, particularly when capturing fast-moving objects or in dynamic environments. This lag or delay can affect the real-time viewing experience, making it challenging to track or respond quickly to changes in the surroundings.

Advantages of Analogue Night Vision Systems​

Higher Resistance to Glare​

Compared to digital systems, analogue night vision systems generally exhibit higher resistance to glare caused by bright light sources. The mechanisms used in analogue systems to capture and amplify light are less susceptible to distortion and artifacts from glare, ensuring a clearer and more consistent image quality. This resistance to glare can be advantageous in various situations, particularly in urban environments or areas with intense artificial lighting.

Real-Time Image​

One of the notable advantages of analogue night vision systems is the real-time image viewing experience they provide.

 

[indicolite22]

Just heard a pilot on radio and he said that the controller should have asked, pat 25 , do you see the crj at 12:00 and didn’t say that.

I think that was from the second exchange with the ATC, just seconds before the collision. In the first part the landing runway was given for the CRJ.

 

[ekc]

This is very controlled airspace. They fly where they are told to fly. The AA flight seems to be on a normal approach. So I don't think they are at fault. So how did the helicopter, in its corridor, get trafficked into the this flight path? Did they just disobey ATC directions? The recordings don't seem to support that so far.

the black boxes (red) will be interesting...my question is will we be told the truth?

 

[Herat]

So Congress added more air traffic to this airport that was known to be extremely short staffed on ATC?!? SMH

It hasn't been determined that the several ATC personel were at fault, despite being short-staffed.

 

[dalsglen]

A preliminary FAA report says staffing in the air traffic control tower at Reagan National was "not normal" last night.

One controller was managing both helicopters in the vicinity and planes — tasks typically divided between two controllers.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1885052262223143249

They're not going to frame the ACT guy for this. Half the world(maybe slight exaggeration) has heard his comms now, he was doing his job, no more, no less. I hope to heck no one ever leaks to media who he is.

 

[Herat]

Bbm.
Snipped for focus.
I didn't hear that either, despite the releasing of part of the air traffic controller's communications with both aircrafts ?
I thought the helicopter had acknowledged that they had a visual -- but some think they meant the other plane that was ascending ?
Or-- what IF the heli. never received that info. ?
Imo.

It's there. It may not be in the frequency on the feed you were listening to.

 

[ekc]

I think that was from the second exchange with the ATC, just seconds before the collision. In the first part the landing runway was given for the CRJ.

regardless as a pilot you have eyes...even if one has night vision and one not.