DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

[TheTeach]

I am mentally past the “who piloted BH” question and the pilots’ personal qualities. Let the military take a long, hard look at the situation and answer to themselves why their pilots failed the test.

We. the public, are probably at the investigation limb, and one question I have is, “how to make traffic at Reagan easier?”

Understanding why different frequencies for the helicopter and the planes…is it really necessary on a training flight for three young, not elite pilots? It wasn’t a mission. Or would the plane, the helicopter and ATCs “joining the chat” help avoid the collision?

Look at the routes. If the pilots ever again get above 200 feet ceiling…

I think it was not a problem to use runway 33, if it is in use. However, maybe forbid the ATC supervisors to let anyone leave early unless the supervisor is ready to sit down and take over as ATC? After all the horrific Bodensee accident happened when there was one ATC instead of two.

While I am at the helicopter aspect, a very strange question came to my mind. Are BHs Internet-equipped? One crew member in the back is not enough, but could that one have been on the phone? (Sorry, I am only thinking of what people do at the “ground” level, and in cars, some still text and drive.)

Lastly, it has been discussed that Washington bureaucracy likes to use direct flights to DC. Maybe allow only higher levels to do it? There are lots of low-level bureaucrats in DC, and I bet this system is overused, too. Make ranks.

Personally, I think both sides on the internet are bending the situation with the pilots too much. On one hand, these three people joined the military voluntarily, died during training, have a heart.

On the other, interviewing her friends who say that she “fully deserved” is absolutely not compassionate to the families of 64 victims. Really sounds wrong. The BH crew made a mistake, people died, we know who the pilots were, let us move on from “curiosity delay” and let the families mourn.

Curious on what the fully deserved finished quote is that you are referencing

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

This is such a tragic and sad situation no matter what occurred.

I am not a pilot or aviation expert…. and was confused by something I thought I read or heard earlier. IIUC there was a supposed ‘ceiling’ for a helicopter if traveling in or through that area? Is that true?

If so though, with incoming commercial flights and outgoing flights departing not certain how supposed ceiling or window might, or might not have helped in a situation like this. MOO

 

[Tutter]

To be clear, these are not my rules. NTSB and industry determined that 1000 feet is a safe barrier. In the case of the Republic Jet and PAT11-- there was more than 1000 feet separation per NTSB. Black Hawks are allowed to fly under aircraft at 200 feet separation or pass behind them at less than 1000 feet! It's a fact that per the standards, there was no near miss here as reported by MSN and good on NTSB for correcting the record. Not sure what OP is trying to say.

I believe a report is filed when a landing is aborted. It’s not that common, certainly not desired and will be reviewed. The pilot of that plane did not feel the landing was safe, and he went around. That situation should have the facts in the report. I don’t know how long it takes for that to be looked at. Hopefully it will be reported publicly.
I think there have been lots of close calls at Reagan.

Moo

 

[Tiff23fr]

Altitude Discrepancy seems to be the concern this morning (NewsNationLive)
Once again to the great minds here. What is your take on this? Where/how is altitude determined/assigned/documented.

Washington DC crash: Data from plane's black boxes gives conflicting information on altitudes - as pictures of third soldier with Joe Biden and Ralph Lauren emerge

In an emotional news conference, officials from the National Transportation Safety Board said the families of the victims are desperate for answers.

news.sky.com

 

[Tiff23fr]

Please do not let this have been the case:

"Sometimes an instructor pilot will test the less experienced aviator to see how they respond, but such a technique would have been unusual and inadvisable in that location given the reduced margin for error."

The aircraft is supposed to maintain a height of 200 feet, but officials who were not authorized to speak publicly about the investigation told NPR that the Black Hawk may have been more than 100 feet higher.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has acknowledged that there may have been an elevation issue with the Black Hawk.

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/01/g-s1-46002/washington-dc-airport-potomac-crash-black-hawk-military-crew

 

[Warwick1991]

Please do not let this have been the case:

"Sometimes an instructor pilot will test the less experienced aviator to see how they respond, but such a technique would have been unusual and inadvisable in that location given the reduced margin for error."

The aircraft is supposed to maintain a height of 200 feet, but officials who were not authorized to speak publicly about the investigation told NPR that the Black Hawk may have been more than 100 feet higher.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has acknowledged that there may have been an elevation issue with the Black Hawk.

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/01/g-s1-46002/washington-dc-airport-potomac-crash-black-hawk-military-crew

I can't imagine the instructor allowing the trainee pilot to stay at the wrong altitude, especially when the airport was operating.

Both pilots have an altimeter.

 

[steeltowngirl]

(…)
The ATC tower’s estimation of the plane’s altitude on impact did not perfectly align with the dataset recovered from the aircraft’s on-board recording device.

The ATC tower had the plane at 200 feet at the time of impact — meaning there is a discrepancy of 100 feet between the measurements of the plane and of the controllers on the ground.

American Airlines pilot may have attempted last-minute move to avoid collision: NTSB

“There was a change in pitch,” NTSB board member Todd Inman said of the nose of the plane.

nypost.com

^BBM
There is a discrepancy of information in reporting. Did ATC have the passenger plane at 200 feet or was it the Blackhawk at 200 ft?

Data from the jet’s flight recorder showed its altitude as 325 feet (99 meters), plus or minus 25 feet (7.6 meters), when the crash happened Wednesday night, National Transportation Safety Board officials told reporters. Data in the control tower, though, showed the Black Hawk helicopter at 200 feet (61 meters) at the time.

The roughly 100-foot (30-meter) discrepancy has yet to be explained.

Investigators hope to reconcile the altitude differences with data from the helicopter's black box, which is taking more time to retrieve because it became waterlogged after it plunged into the Potomac River. They also said they plan to refine the tower data, which can be less reliable.

Data from the deadliest U.S. air accident in a generation show conflicting altitude readings
Data from the deadliest U.S. air accident in a generation show conflicting altitude readings

 

[Tiff23fr]

I can't imagine the instructor allowing the trainee pilot to stay at the wrong altitude, especially when the airport was operating.

Both pilots have an altimeter.

If a trainee is making an error, does the training pilot have the ability to take complete control and correct the situation?
(I am just trying to wrap my head around the logistics, not point blame)

 

[cledco]

While I am at the helicopter aspect, a very strange question came to my mind. Are BHs Internet-equipped? One crew member in the back is not enough, but could that one have been on the phone? (Sorry, I am only thinking of what people do at the “ground” level, and in cars, some still text and drive.)

Military aircraft do not have WiFi, and while I haven't ridden a dragonfly machine in almost 15 years it's difficult to imagine the crew chief being on his phone in flight. Even if it weren't an egregious violation of protocol, the amount of light the screen generates makes viewing it through an image intensifier a losing game.

 

[Elley Mae]

If a trainee is making an error, does the training pilot have the ability to take complete control and correct the situation?
(I am just trying to wrap my head around the logistics, not point blame)

. There were night vision googles available, not sure if they were wearing them. My thought is when PAT25 acknowledged seeing the cjr that all three locked eyes on the wrong plane, possibly the one taking off. If they did have night vision on it limited their view. The plane taking off was on their right the cjr was coming in on their left side. It does appear the chopper dipped just before impact. They basically flew into each other.

Jmo

 

[mickey2942]

If a trainee is making an error, does the training pilot have the ability to take complete control and correct the situation?
(I am just trying to wrap my head around the logistics, not point blame)

I imagine that the instructor can take over. But a helicopter is not exactly like a training car, Ford Fusion, with a brake on the instructor side.

Just found an article, the name of the pilot has been released.

Who Was Captain Rebecca M. Lobach? Female Black Hawk Pilot In DC Plane Crash Identified

The third soldier on the military Black Hawk that collided with an American Airlines plane has been identified as Captain Rebecca Lobach. All three soldiers and 64 passengers lost their lives due to the crash. , US News, Times Now

www.timesnownews.com

 

[Vern]

Can someone please tag me when an actual flight safety notification from the professionals such as the Aviation Safety Network or ICAO is issued? Or when the NTSB etc actually complete their investigation into the confirmed cause and release the findings as to the actual confirmed circumstances and cause of this tragic collison?

Until then, may the wonderful memories that families, friends and loved ones have of all the victims bring their families, friends and co-workers some comfort and sense of peace at this terribly tragic time.

 

[Dotta]

The King Charles'
message following the air accident in Washington, D.C.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1885828426067554348

 

[Boxer]

I imagine that the instructor can take over. But a helicopter is not exactly like a training car, Ford Fusion, with a brake on the instructor side.

Just found an article, the name of the pilot has been released.

Who Was Captain Rebecca M. Lobach? Female Black Hawk Pilot In DC Plane Crash Identified

The third soldier on the military Black Hawk that collided with an American Airlines plane has been identified as Captain Rebecca Lobach. All three soldiers and 64 passengers lost their lives due to the crash. , US News, Times Now

www.timesnownews.com

The Black Hawk has two full pilots. Helicopters have the opposite seat orientation of fixed wing, in the UH60 the pilot in the right seat and copilot in the left.
Transfer of full control takes this long, saying "I have the controls"

Pilots get shot in LZs, thats why there are two.

MOO The idea that one of the pilot is at fault in this situation is incorrect.
I would say this if the female pilot was the evaluator and the male being evaluated.
Both are involved in watching instruments, situation and tower communication.
No one was a trainee, the female pilot was getting her night hours ongoing requirements that pilots' need every year.

 

[mickey2942]

I was thinking the other day, at my job, how everything continues to get more complicated, and I don't even fly a Black Hawk helicopter.

Has technology, created a "sensory overload"? That as jobs become more dependent on AI, how much more complicated processes are? And how much needs to be kept track of? In my job, they have said since AI is making the job "so much easier", now I am basically doing 5x the workload. Than workers 25 years ago.

Where is the limit?!

 

[Simply Southern]

I believe a report is filed when a landing is aborted. It’s not that common, certainly not desired and will be reviewed. The pilot of that plane did not feel the landing was safe, and he went around. That situation should have the facts in the report. I don’t know how long it takes for that to be looked at. Hopefully it will be reported publicly.
I think there have been lots of close calls at Reagan.

Moo

1000 ft leaves no room for error for a jet descending at 200 to 400 feet per min or less. No three way direct communication between aircraft, helicopters and the tower. The back and forth and forth of ATC takes valuable seconds, as we have seen.

Does the ATV have authority to direct in air flight pattern of military helicopters?

The answer is NO!!

Air traffic controllers (ATC) are responsible for monitoring military aircraft to prevent accidents, but they don't have the authority to decide which military aircraft can enter certain airspace.

Explanation

• The Department of Defense (DoD) is responsible for ensuring that military pilots have the proper approvals to enter special activity airspace (SAA).
  
  
• The military is responsible for separating aircraft on designated MARSA routes until ATC establishes separation after operations are complete.
  
• A designated military unit is responsible for scheduling military flights that will use an ATC-assigned airspace (ATCAA) or military operations area (MOA).
  
  
• ATC facilities must provide separation in accordance with FAA Order JO 7110.65.

The FAA regulates civil aviation and maintains air traffic control systems for both civil and military aircraft.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/pub...sure that military,-assigned airspace (ATCAA).

 

[Herat]

Can someone please tag me when an actual flight safety notification from the professionals such as the Aviation Safety Network or ICAO is issued? Or when the NTSB etc actually complete their investigation into the confirmed cause and release the findings as to the actual confirmed circumstances and cause of this tragic collison?

Until then, may the wonderful memories that families, friends and loved ones have of all the victims bring their families, friends and co-workers some comfort and sense of peace at this terribly tragic time.

This isn't really brief, but it is a pretty interesting piece that the SFO (San Francisco Airport) has on their website about Go-Arounds. I'm surprised to find it on the website, and makes me think they get a lot of questions about it.

Some quick points: Go-Arounds happen every day at SFO, not uncommonly 3 or more. In national statistics, a "normal" rate of Go-Arounds is between 0.02-0.06% of landings. The rate for SFO is 0.03% for the time frame study between 2015 and 2018.

For SFO, which is a far larger airport than KDCA and serves much larger international flights as well as a variety of smaller regional flights of the same size as KDCA. I bolded the one really important cause that gets mixed in all the statistics:

• 1.4 times more likely during busy summer months than fall or early spring months
• 1.8 to 4.0 times more likely in less frequently used airport configurations than when arriving on the most frequently used arrival runways
• 1.5 times more likely during periods of peak daily arrival volume than during mid‐afternoons when arrival volume is generally lighter
• 1.1 times more likely for widebody aircraft than narrowbody or regional jet aircraft
• 1.2 times more likely for small aircraft (jet, turboprop, propeller) than narrowbody or regional jet aircraft
• 1.4 times more likely for foreign flagged passenger carriers than U.S. flagged passenger carriers

The article doesn't directly involve reporting requirements, and I'll research that a bit more.

Information About Go‐Arounds | San Francisco International Airport

|The Go‐Around Procedure and CausesAt the highest, most‐general, level, a go‐around is a flight procedure in which an arriving aircraft aborts its landing procedure and returns to the landing queue. Go‐arounds are typically initiated if a pilot or controller is not completely satisfied that the...

www.flysfo.com

 

[Simply Southern]

I can't imagine the instructor allowing the trainee pilot to stay at the wrong altitude, especially when the airport was operating.

Both pilots have an altimeter.

I can't either, but it happened. They were warned at 1000 ft and again at 500 and continued into the path of the of an AA airliner with 60+ human lives.

What distresses me most, ATC have no authority over the flight path/altitude of a military aircraft. (Posted link above)

Moo

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

^^BBM

Bravo to NTSB for calling out the erroneous MSM report that I too suggested in my quoted post about a near miss collision reported at DCA 24 hours before the tragedy on Wednesday over the Potomac. See the NTSB presser on 2/1/25:

At about the 11 min mark of the presser, NTSB states the investigation data showed there was over 1,000 feet of separation between PAT11 and the Republic Airways jet. 1000 feet is a good safety barrier. The pilot here rejected the landing and did a go around which was the pilots own decision.

Good on media for reporting the near miss as such and great on the pilot for his response. !000 feet is too close. imo We now have to consider the ATC radar is off by 100 + feet. 1000 ft is less than 1/4 mile, .189 to be exact.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap4_section_4.html

(bbm)
4-4-11. IFR Separation Standards

1. ATC effects separation of aircraft vertically by assigning different altitudes; longitudinally by providing an interval expressed in time or distance between aircraft on the same, converging, or crossing courses, and laterally by assigning different flight paths.
2. Separation will be provided between all aircraft operating on IFR flight plans except during that part of the flight (outside Class B airspace or a TRSA) being conducted on a VFR-on-top/VFR conditions clearance. Under these conditions, ATC may issue traffic advisories, but it is the sole responsibility of the pilot to be vigilant so as to see and avoid other aircraft.
3. When radar is employed in the separation of aircraft at the same altitude, a minimum of 3 miles separation is provided between aircraft operating within 40 miles of the radar antenna site, and 5 miles between aircraft operating beyond 40 miles from the antenna site. These minima may be increased or decreased in certain specific situations.
   NOTE-
   
   Certain separation standards may be increased in the terminal environment due to radar outages or other technical reasons.

 

[TheTeach]

Maybe. Quite possible. They could be victims, too.

They are victims.....