DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

[Charlot123]

This is a reality check right here. The families of the victims laid a wreath and were able to visit the scene today before they remove the aircraft debris. Imagining their pain right now.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1886133907625558300

Is there any psychological help being provided to the rescuers?

 

[bestill]

Is there any psychological help being provided to the rescuers?

I am sure there has to be. This is gruesome work in extreme weather conditions. Probably the best of the best doing it too.

 

[Seattle1]

Good on media for reporting the near miss as such and great on the pilot for his response. !000 feet is too close. imo We now have to consider the ATC radar is off by 100 + feet. 1000 ft is less than 1/4 mile, .189 to be exact.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap4_section_4.html

(bbm)
4-4-11. IFR Separation Standards

1. ATC effects separation of aircraft vertically by assigning different altitudes; longitudinally by providing an interval expressed in time or distance between aircraft on the same, converging, or crossing courses, and laterally by assigning different flight paths.
2. Separation will be provided between all aircraft operating on IFR flight plans except during that part of the flight (outside Class B airspace or a TRSA) being conducted on a VFR-on-top/VFR conditions clearance. Under these conditions, ATC may issue traffic advisories, but it is the sole responsibility of the pilot to be vigilant so as to see and avoid other aircraft.
3. When radar is employed in the separation of aircraft at the same altitude, a minimum of 3 miles separation is provided between aircraft operating within 40 miles of the radar antenna site, and 5 miles between aircraft operating beyond 40 miles from the antenna site. These minima may be increased or decreased in certain specific situations.
   NOTE-
   
   Certain separation standards may be increased in the terminal environment due to radar outages or other technical reasons.

FAA IFR Spec does not apply here-- both craft not operating on IFR flight plan. Reference NTSB presser for applicable citation.

 

[branmuffin]

I think the two exchanges are in reverse order. First the helicopter pilot was informed about the CRJ coming in to land on Runway 33, after which he asked to use visual separation. Shortly before the collision the second exchange took place in which the ATC tried to confirm the helicopter pilot had the CRJ in sight, because they were getting closer.

The transcript comes from the audio. The audio is embedded in the article.

 

[Boxer]

I think the two exchanges are in reverse order. First the helicopter pilot was informed about the CRJ coming in to land on Runway 33, after which he asked to use visual separation. Shortly before the collision the second exchange took place in which the ATC tried to confirm the helicopter pilot had the CRJ in sight, because they were getting closer.

Tower should have been screaming descend.

 

[Herat]

I will be interested to read what the Captain and First Officer of the flight behind PSA5342 were seeing or hearing prior to the accident on their approach to runway 1.

 

[Seattle1]

This isn't really brief, but it is a pretty interesting piece that the SFO (San Francisco Airport) has on their website about Go-Arounds. I'm surprised to find it on the website, and makes me think they get a lot of questions about it.

Some quick points: Go-Arounds happen every day at SFO, not uncommonly 3 or more. In national statistics, a "normal" rate of Go-Arounds is between 0.02-0.06% of landings. The rate for SFO is 0.03% for the time frame study between 2015 and 2018.

For SFO, which is a far larger airport than KDCA and serves much larger international flights as well as a variety of smaller regional flights of the same size as KDCA. I bolded the one really important cause that gets mixed in all the statistics:

• 1.4 times more likely during busy summer months than fall or early spring months
• 1.8 to 4.0 times more likely in less frequently used airport configurations than when arriving on the most frequently used arrival runways
• 1.5 times more likely during periods of peak daily arrival volume than during mid‐afternoons when arrival volume is generally lighter
• 1.1 times more likely for widebody aircraft than narrowbody or regional jet aircraft
• 1.2 times more likely for small aircraft (jet, turboprop, propeller) than narrowbody or regional jet aircraft
• 1.4 times more likely for foreign flagged passenger carriers than U.S. flagged passenger carriers

The article doesn't directly involve reporting requirements, and I'll research that a bit more.

Information About Go‐Arounds | San Francisco International Airport

|The Go‐Around Procedure and CausesAt the highest, most‐general, level, a go‐around is a flight procedure in which an arriving aircraft aborts its landing procedure and returns to the landing queue. Go‐arounds are typically initiated if a pilot or controller is not completely satisfied that the...

www.flysfo.com

I agree with all the above. Having flown more than a million miles, no surprise I've also experienced many go arounds. Excluding the subject "near miss," some cited reasons have included traffic back up, weather, animal hazard, and pilot distraction (aviate, navigate, communicate). Ultimately, passengers are entitled to trust their pilot that the reason for the go around was precautionary and the result was a safe landing. MOO

 

[Seattle1]

Tower should have been screaming descend.

Instead, Tower directed PAT25 to pass behind CRJ.

However, it seems the last "imperfect" data transmission by PAT25 at 8:47:58 ET [by FlightRadar24*, not black box readings] suggested the helicopter at 200 feet. The military helicopter was sending a Mode S signal, which transmits basic data about altitude and aircraft identification.

ATC Communications Between Jet, Army Black Hawk Face Scrutiny in D.C. Midair

A Washington, D.C.-area helicopter pilot says Army Black Hawk was flying published route and on appropriate radio frequency.

www.flyingmag.com

ETA: * disclosure by software tracker FlightRadar24

 

[Boxer]

Instead, Tower directed PAT25 to pass behind CRJ. However, it seems the last imperfect data transmission by PAT25 at 8:47:58 ET suggested the helicopter at 200 feet. (The military helicopter was sending a Mode S signal, which transmits basic data about altitude and aircraft identification).

ATC Communications Between Jet, Army Black Hawk Face Scrutiny in D.C. Midair

A Washington, D.C.-area helicopter pilot says Army Black Hawk was flying published route and on appropriate radio frequency.

www.flyingmag.com

Not sure if Black Box instrument readings have been published yet.

 

[Seattle1]

Not sure if Black Box instrument readings have been published yet.

Black box has not -- hence the reference to "imperfect" data transmission being reported by MSM. Sorry, I should have made that clear.

Ian Petchenik, spokesperson for FlightRadar24, a flight tracking company is now cited by CNN warning that their software and/or Flight paths and altitude readings are approximate, and the Flight data is raw and uncorrected... A full understanding of the moments before the midair collision will require a complete analysis of the data recorders on board the aircraft, but even an incomplete picture indicates the helicopter was not in the right position.

FlightRadar24 - Paths & Altitude Readings are Approximate--Flight Data is Raw and Uncorrected

 

[cledco]

Two great soldiers who were pilots then.

Long and interesting service history just from the included photos, that one where he's got E-6 stripes and no unit insignia makes me wonder if it was immediately on being brought over from the Navy prior to warrant and flight.

 

[Herat]

Black box has not -- hence the reference to "imperfect" data transmission being reported by MSM. Sorry, I should have made that clear.

Ian Petchenik, spokesperson for FlightRadar24, a flight tracking company is now cited by CNN warning that their software and/or Flight paths and altitude readings are approximate, and the Flight data is raw and uncorrected... A full understanding of the moments before the midair collision will require a complete analysis of the data recorders on board the aircraft, but even an incomplete picture indicates the helicopter was not in the right position.

FlightRadar24 - Paths & Altitude Readings are Approximate--Flight Data is Raw and Uncorrected

Thanks for posting this about FlightRadar24

As somone who enjoys watching it for a variety of reasons, I have certainly observed that especially around the final approach and touchdown, the air speed and elevation information can be delayed, seemingly blocked, or misleading.

It should never be relied up as verified status of a flight progress.

 

[Boxer]

This is probably our horrible electric grid. We had an outage in WA in November and it was a catastrophe although it shouldn’t have been. And then I went to India - they don’t hide electric cables underground- but the construction is more solid. I think our electric grid is a separate issue. And it needs discussion.

1n 1981 the ATC went out on strike for a 32 hour work week saying the stress and need for absolute precision was too much at 40 hours a week.

 

[acutename]

I agree 100%.. trainee is not the right word here.

I also am curious about the last minute switch to runway 33. I know it's done, but what are the protocols for switching like was done here? Did the ATC see the helo coming right up along the path of where the plane would fly to land on runway 33? I would think yes so why is it is the protocol to just ask the helo to pass behind it? Why not let the helo pass by before allowing the plane to land? Whis it the job of the helo to avoid the plane when runway 1 would have prevented this entirely. It seems runway 1 allows the plane to come in at this point a bit higher and further away from the known flight path the helo was on.

Also it seems even at 200 ft vs 300 or 350 feet the helo would have been way to close to the plane landing even if they didn't collide. The goal is a much larger separation as I understand it. So even allowing them to come within 200 feet of one another seems risky.

1. the helo is armed forces and it asked to do its own visual navigation
2. there was another plane the tower wanted to allow to take off on runway 1 so could have been efficient
3. incoming plane/pilots agreed to use #33... they could have said no

also, supposedly these helo flights take place all the time

 

[Seattle1]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1886159724577706420

https://twitter.com/x/status/1886160635853230439

 

[Seattle1]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1886159453168570548

 

[acutename]

"They're military pilots; they're familiar with the routes,"

Experts ask why Black Hawk helicopter may have been flying above allowed altitude before crash

This data point is one of several key mysteries investigators are exploring as they seek to explain what caused the nation's worst air disaster in more than a decade, aviation experts said.

www.cbsnews.com

so they have flown this exact route before (unless MSM is wrong) ... I thought initially maybe they came in for "training" from some where else but they presumably know the airport, the runways, their chopper...

 

[acutename]

Oh, “earned her place” in the heading was exceptionally bad choice of words. Think of where she ended with 66 other people. I wonder if AI wrote that nonsense. We have to think of the crew and passengers of the JCR and their families. The young kids. I am positive that Captain Lobach was a wonderful person but it is just wrong day and time.

That we say “thank you for your service” to the military and they have certain benefits is OK. That the military takes care of own fallen comrades-in-arms is great. Normal people don’t question her gender. And, we know that catastrophes happen in military aviation. The heli pilots bad luck is where it happened, and what was the result. Whoever decided that it is OK to train there in airport peak hours should be responsible. And it was not these three.

I hope that Ryan O’Hara and Andrew Eaves, too, get the deserved spotlight, both left families and kids.

the "earned" quote was to dispel any thought that she was not a qualified pilot- not that she deserved to die. The newspaper headline is inartful IMO.

 

[Dotta]

"A dozen more victims of the deadly American Airlines and Black Hawk helicopter crash have been identified,
as rescue divers detailed the 'horrors' they saw as they tried to salvage the remains.

Washington DC Fire and EMS Chief John Donnelly announced Sunday evening
that 55 of the 67 have been identified.

Donnelly said he believes crew members will eventually recover the remains of the 12 other victims of the doomed flight,
but they are unsure where the bodies may be,

'If we knew where they were, though,
we would already have taken them out',
he insisted.
'So we have some work to do as this salvage operation goes on,
and we will absolutely stay here
and search until such point as we have everybody'.

But the recovery efforts have proved to be challenging thus far,
as Donnelly confirmed
that a diver with the Metropolitan Police Department had to be transported to a local hospital for hypothermia.

He has since checked himself out of the hospital.

An unidentified firefighter working the scene, however, told reporter Brian Entin
he and others are
'emotionally wiped out after seeing the horror up close'."

More victims of American Airlines plane crash identified

A dozen more victims of the deadly American Airlines and Black Hawk helicopter crash have been identified, authorities announced Sunday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[DS2021]

https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article299452669.html

heres the most comprehensive list ive seen so far