DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

[Seattle1]

But here's where I'm stuck. Those two aircraft, even with the call out from the ATC at 12 seconds before contact, were uncomfortably close. Like mayday close. Seems like the AA pilots should have been advised (assuming they weren't) that switching to the sorry runway would bring them VERY CLOSE to the Blackhawk's crosswind course, giving the pilots enough information to reject the runway change or reject the landing altogether, in favor of a fly around.

100 feet of supposed clearance? Who could be satisfied with that?????? Comfortable near hit? Hot miss?

There's got to be a better way to prioritize incoming commercial flights with souls aboard and feathering in military transport, especially when it transects short approaches.

The aircraft was mere feet really from a successful landing. T-boned. By a projectile which could only happen IMO if both crews were blind to one another. And that just shouldn't be.

That's a gap we should be able to close. One crash too late.

JMO

Given "helicopter alley" is very unique to DCA, I don't think this is clear. I'm aware commercial pilots are required to receive special training before they are allowed to fly to/from DCA, and others speaking anonymously to MSM have told of Military Helicopters passing behind or beneath them without their advance knowledge since commercial pilots are flying using IFR (Instrument Flight Rules).

The following passage seems to question the same as to whether or not the CRJ was aware of PAT25 or that PAT 25 had been directed by the Tower to pass behind CRJ per the following:

The airliner, identified as American Eagle Flight 5342, a PSA Bombardier CRJ-700, was on approach to land on Runway 33 at KDCA shortly before 9 p.m. EST when the accident happened.

In Live ATC audio, air traffic control could be heard addressing the helicopter in a one-sided conversation:

ATC: PAT25 do you have the CRJ in sight? PAT25 pass behind that CRJ.

One of the factors investigators are likely to be looking at is if the crew of the CRJ was aware of the helicopter, as military aircraft often utilize ultra high frequency (UHF) radios while civilian aircraft utilize very high frequency (VHF).

'No Survivors': American Eagle Flight, Army Black Hawk Collide Over Potomac River

 

[vls12345]

Large portion of American Airlines jet pulled from river after deadly air collision near DC

Authorities have said the operation to remove the plane will take several days and they will then work to remove the military helicopter involved in the crash.

www.11alive.com

Credit: AP
Crews with cranes pull up the wreckage of an American Airlines jet in the Potomac River from Ronald Reagan National Airport, Feb. 3, 2025.

 

[PrairieWind]

Given "helicopter alley" is very unique to DCA, I don't think this is clear. I'm aware commercial pilots are required to receive special training before they are allowed to fly to/from DCA, and others speaking anonymously to MSM have told of Military Helicopters passing behind or beneath them without their advance knowledge since commercial pilots are flying using IFR (Instrument Flight Rules).

The following passage seems to question the same as to whether or not the CRJ was aware of PAT25 of being directed to pass behind CRJ per the following:

The airliner, identified as American Eagle Flight 5342, a PSA Bombardier CRJ-700, was on approach to land on Runway 33 at KDCA shortly before 9 p.m. EST when the accident happened.

In Live ATC audio, air traffic control could be heard addressing the helicopter in a one-sided conversation:

ATC: PAT25 do you have the CRJ in sight? PAT25 pass behind that CRJ.

One of the factors investigators are likely to be looking at is if the crew of the CRJ was aware of the helicopter, as military aircraft often utilize ultra high frequency (UHF) radios while civilian aircraft utilize very high frequency (VHF).

'No Survivors': American Eagle Flight, Army Black Hawk Collide Over Potomac River

the conversation with ATC and Pat-25 the helicopter is two way. Twice they discuss the inbound CRJ and twice the helicopter acknowledges it and requests visual separation rules. That is what is supposed to happen. Then the helicopter is supposed to just keep separation from the incoming traffic. There are competing needs for airspace and this is the system used. For some reason the Army helicopter instead of avoiding the incoming plane as it was required to and had requested to do, just flew right in to it.

 

[Seattle1]

Yes, the flight corridors are rough, but there is just a LOT of traffic that has to fly in that area. Should that all be reconsidered? Perhaps, but that is beyond my paygrade. But it seems maybe Reagan International needs to go away.

^^rsbm

Beginning with 911, instead of expanding FRZ -- I think a perfect opportunity was lost to transfer DCA to exclusive Government/US Military use. IMO, it's time to put safety first and eliminate commercial use of DCA once and for all.

 

[Seattle1]

the conversation with ATC and Pat-25 the helicopter is two way. Twice they discuss the inbound CRJ and twice the helicopter acknowledges it and requests visual separation rules. That is what is supposed to happen. Then the helicopter is supposed to just keep separation from the incoming traffic. There are competing needs for airspace and this is the system used. For some reason the Army helicopter instead of avoiding the incoming plane as it was required to and had requested to do, just flew right in to it.

Yes, this is clear about communication between PAT25 and ATC was two sided but excluded CRJ (i.e., one sided).

I believe OP and most are questioning if and how American Airlines/CRJ pilot was kept in the loop about the what and where of PAT25.

 

[Herat]

t^^rsbm

Beginning with 911, instead of expanding FRZ -- I think a perfect opportunity was lost to transfer DCA to exclusive Government/US Military use. IMO, it's time to put safety first and eliminate commercial use of DCA once and for all.

I appears there is a peristent demand by Senators to have this airport open for flights from their home districts. <modsnip>

Despite what is a unique and potentially disastrous traffic problem that has been allowed to exist for a long time.

 

[Megnut]

Yes, this is clear about communication between PAT25 and ATC. I believe OP and most are questioning if and how American Airlines/CRJ pilot was kept in the loop about the what and where of PAT25.

Especially when the commercial pilots were guided to the shorter runway, a change the pilots might have rejected the change at that time in favor of a fly around specifically because of the presence of Blackhawk.

Pilots are responsible for the souls on their aircraft and rely on ATC for the infirmary they need to best protect them.

Whether that was an established helicopter corridor is immaterial if that night the commercial pilots weren't made aware of an actual heli in conflict with a safe approach on that runway.

JMO

 

[Herat]

Especially when the commercial pilots were guided to the shorter runway, a change the pilots might have rejected the change at that time in favor of a fly around specifically because of the presence of Blackhawk.

Pilots are responsible for the souls on their aircraft and rely on ATC for the infirmary they need to best protect them.

Whether that was an established helicopter corridor is immaterial if that night the commercial pilots weren't made aware of an actual heli in conflict with a safe approach on that runway.

JMO

I can't possibly second-guess the ATC tower control and the incoming airplane traffic, but I do believe the request for PSA5342 to change runways from Runway 1 to Runway 33 was several minutes in advance of the ATC Tower control discussion with PAT25.

PSA5342 would not specifically have known of the course of PAT25 at the time the runway change was accepted by the pilots, I belive.

I have no idea how much radar information about non-KDCA helicopter traffic would be available at that point, but the plane Captain would have to have understood there existed a corridor for military helicopter traffic that was not a common condition seen in other airports.

I, like others here, cannot fathom how the the two aircraft traffic streams were allowed to coexist in such close conditions.

 

[Megnut]

I can't possibly second-guess the ATC tower control and the incoming airplane traffic, but I do believe the request for PSA5342 to change runways from Runway 1 to Runway 33 was several minutes in advance of the ATC Tower control discussion with PAT25.

PSA5342 would not specifically have known of the course of PAT25 at the time the runway change was accepted by the pilots, I belive.

I have no idea how much radar information about non-KDCA helicopter traffic would be available at that point, but the plane Captain would have to have understood there existed a corridor for military helicopter traffic that was not a common condition seen in other airports.

I, like others here, cannot fathom how the the two aircraft traffic streams were allowed to coexist in such close conditions.

That's where I'm at. Why was it acceptable for those two aircraft to be anywhere near as close as they were, what was the expectation? That the Blackhawk would hang back for a 15 seconds in order to pass behind the rerouted commercial aircraft? Margin of error, isn't that cutting it too close for everyone's comfort? This isn't a Thunderbird performance .... it's a busy commercial airfield with intermittent military presence. Why no call out to either cockpit to abort, abort, abort?

The list of forced and unforced errors won't be short.

JMO

 

[JDG]

Airport employees arrested after leaking deadly DC plane crash video

The plane, carrying 60 passengers and four crew members, was approaching Reagan National Airport on Wednesday night when it was hit by a helicopter conducting a training flight.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[SouthAussie]

.
More remains of D.C. plane crash victims recovered from Potomac River as wreckage removal begins

"As crews removed some of the wreckage of the American Airlines plane that collided with an Army Black Hawk helicopter over Washington, D.C., and crashed into the Potomac River last week, more remains of victims were recovered Monday, officials said ....... additional remains were recovered Monday, and that they were in the process of being identified.

Col. Frank Pera .... described the wreckage removal effort on Monday as a "very successful day." The plane's right engine and aft fuselage were lifted from the river

Salvage crews also brought a wing out of the water.

Pera said at a news conference most of the recovered wreckage will stay on the salvage operation's barge, covered up, until tides allow for the transferring of the items to shore..

He said Monday that Tuesday's goal is to remove the cockpit from the river."
.

 

[Seattle1]

2 airport employees arrested, charged with leaking plane crash video to CNN

The MWAA said in a statement that the employees made an "unauthorized copy" of the video and gave it to the media outlet.

www.wusa9.com

 

[Seattle1]

I recall this video on CNN last Friday morning from new angle...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/02/03/airport-workers-arrested-video-leak-plane-crash/

 

[PayrollNerd]

Airport employees arrested after leaking deadly DC plane crash video

The plane, carrying 60 passengers and four crew members, was approaching Reagan National Airport on Wednesday night when it was hit by a helicopter conducting a training flight.

www.dailymail.co.uk

1000% disrespectful to the victims and their families.

Dumbest employees ever. I’ve worked for two airport authorities and they take excellent care of their employees. Not to mentioned the high level background checks you have to go thru just to get hired. Repeated background checks when the Secret Service roams the grounds prior to high level visitors. These two are ruined. They’ll be lucky to make French fries at McDs.

 

[SouthAussie]

Airport employees arrested after leaking deadly DC plane crash video

The plane, carrying 60 passengers and four crew members, was approaching Reagan National Airport on Wednesday night when it was hit by a helicopter conducting a training flight.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Did the DM just report these two arrests AND add said leaked video at the end of their article??

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I learned something new about aircraft altimeters while studying this accident. I've listen to numerous ATC communions in the past and always wondered why they give the airports altimeter info to departing and landing aircraft.

What I didn't know is barometric pressure affects the altimeter and pilots need to adjust theirs in order for it to give the correct altitude of the aircraft during flight.

I'm sure the NTSB will been looking at the UH-60's altimeter setting during their investigation to determine if the pilots had the correct altitude reading available to them during this flight.

What does "Kollsman Window" mean? • GlobeAir

The Kollsman Window is a feature found on an aircraft's altimeter for measuring altitude. It allows pilots to manually input a local barometric pressure setting, essential for obtaining an accurate altitude reading.

www.globeair.com

The Kollsman Window is pivotal in ensuring precise altitude measurement and altitude awareness in aviation. By allowing pilots to input the local barometric pressure setting, this feature facilitates accurate altitude indication relative to mean sea level, enhancing flight safety and navigation efficiency.

 

[Warwick1991]

I learned something new about aircraft altimeters while studying this accident. I've listen to numerous ATC communions in the past and always wondered why they give the airports altimeter info to departing and landing aircraft.

What I didn't know is barometric pressure affects the altimeter and pilots need to adjust theirs in order for it to give the correct altitude of the aircraft during flight.

I'm sure the NTSB will been looking at the UH-60's altimeter setting during their investigation to determine if the pilots had the correct altitude reading available to them during this flight.

What does "Kollsman Window" mean? • GlobeAir

The Kollsman Window is a feature found on an aircraft's altimeter for measuring altitude. It allows pilots to manually input a local barometric pressure setting, essential for obtaining an accurate altitude reading.

www.globeair.com

The majority of Blackhawk helicopter variants have radar altimeters, and those operate independently of barometric pressure. This is from a manufacturer: RA-4500 – UH-60A & EH-60A Radar Altimeter | FreeFlight Systems

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The majority of Blackhawk helicopter variants have radar altimeters, and those operate independently of barometric pressure. This is from a manufacturer: RA-4500 – UH-60A & EH-60A Radar Altim

The majority of Blackhawk helicopter variants have radar altimeters, and those operate independently of barometric pressure. This is from a manufacturer: RA-4500 – UH-60A & EH-60A Radar Altimeter | FreeFlight Systems

eter | FreeFlight Systems

I was waiting to see if someone would bring up radar/radio altimeters on UH-60 helicopters.

I saw a source that said the accident UH-60 was an L model with steam gauge type instruments but I can't find a link for it now. It looks like M and V models have flat panels and more accurate radar altimeters.

Until we know the model and configuration of the accident helicopter it's just a guess that the altimeter caused any confusion for the helicopter crew. JMO.

Below are images of early panels vs newer updated flat screen panels.

https://unitedaerogroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Honeywell-Bendix-King-UH-60-Cockpit.pdf

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The majority of Blackhawk helicopter variants have radar altimeters, and those operate independently of barometric pressure. This is from a manufacturer: RA-4500 – UH-60A & EH-60A Radar Altimeter | FreeFlight SystemsI

I do have a question. I didn't see in your link that the "majority" of Blackhawk helicopters have radar altimeters. I guess that could be true but I haven't found a source for that.

Another question for everyone. Do radar altimeter equipped UH-60's transmit more accurate altitude information to ATC display's vs standard altimeters?

 

[Soulmagent]

I appears there is a peristent demand by Senators to have this airport open for flights from their home districts. <modsnip>

Despite what is a unique and potentially disastrous traffic problem that has been allowed to exist for a long time.

We have enough stuff taken from us in the area. We have more bases than airports here DCA is the easiest to fly in and out of , closing it to the private sector would cripple traffic and make the east coast overall more panful to travel on .