Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

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  • #141
I'm not an expert by any means, but as I understand it, putrefaction is a part of decomposition. So maybe whereas putrefaction is slower, overall decomposition is more rapid?

That's a really good question, BeanE. Putrefaction tends to be the longest stage of tissue decomposition, so I'd imagine that the overall decomposition would be slower as well, but I can't say for sure with any degree of certainty.
 
  • #142
Caylee was triple-bagged in plastic, in a car trunk, during a hot, rainy Florida summer. That matters.
Snipped from Death's Acre by Bill Blass: Every variable made a difference. Was the body in sunlight or shade? Clothes or nude? Outdoors, or in a building--or a car? The passenger compartment or the trunk? On land or in water? One early experiment posed a deceptively simple question: How far a way can the smell of death be detected by the human nosehttp://s975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/Jolynna/?action=view&current=DeathsAcre.jpg&newest=1


Dr. Larry Kobilinski, defense expert for Casey Anthony, noted that it only takes two weeks for a body to skeletonize in a Florida swamp, and he questioned the medical examiners conclusions about when the body was put in the woods.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/19795725/detail.html

From pages 28 & 29 of Caylee's Autopsy report:
http://s975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/Jolynna/?action=view current=cayleeautopsyreportpage28and29.jpg&newest=1
Page 29 of Caylee's Autopsy explains how quickly a Caylee would skeletonize in a tropical climate: http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/0619/19801946.pdf

Arpad Vass's air "sniffer" might be new to courtrooms, but his testimony about the dirt and other items found close to dead bodies is accepted science that has been key to other cases.


Dead Men Talking
Arpad Vass
Forensic anthropologist
Oak Ridge National Laboratory

http://businesstn.com/content/top-ten-scientists

You won¹t convince Arpad Vass that a dead man tells no tales. Vass, a forensic scientist at Oak Ridge, runs the world’s only body farm—a place where corpses are left to rot on purpose for the sake of scientific research. For two decades, Vass has used his facility to extract ever more precise tales from the dead. Officially dubbed the Anthropology Research Facility, the 30-year-old plot of land on three wooded acres behind the medical center at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville was immortalized in Patricia Cornwell’s The Body Farm.

After arriving at the university in 1988, Vass, the son of a Hungarian immigrant, came under the wing of Body Farm creator William Bass (now retired). Since then, he has focused on developing a low-cost, easy-to-use method of determining time since death—a great boon for law enforcement agencies attempting to determine guilt and gain convictions. During his tenure at the farm, Vass says the margin of error in determining time since death has been reduced from weeks and months to plus or minus 12 hours.

In a world where a cadaver can be reduced to bare bones in as little as 30 days, weather permitting, Vass turns to outside objects, such as carpeting, bedding, or anything the body could be wrapped in. Analyzing the chemical makeup of the crime scene, he builds computer models of the body, figuring multiple variables, which ultimately lead to determining the coveted time since death.
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  • #143
There is no doubt in my mind that the napkins contained wiped on early-stage adipocere. To make clearer what was on the napkins here's a very informative post from our WS chemist:

Originally Posted by DogMom2JoeAndWillie

Palmitic acid (C16H32O2), stearic acid (C18H36O2), and myristic acid (C14H28O2) are all saturated fatty acids. "Saturated" means that there are no double bonded carbons in the molecule...so there are as many hydrogens in the molecule as possible... the molecule is "saturated" with hydrogen atoms. Oleic acid (C18H34O2) is most abundant FA in human adipose tissue, and it is UNsaturated. If you hydrogenate the double bond (remove the double bond and add hydrogen) of oleic acid you end up with stearic acid (one of the saturated FA's). Palmitoleic acid (C16H30O2) is also a monounsaturated fatty acid, found throughout human adipose tissue. According to Vass' report, recently decomposing samples will have lots of oleic fatty acids (unsaturated). The unsaturated FA's are converted into saturated fatty acids (like stearic acid) over time. This means that some of the oleic acid was converted into other fatty acids while the paper towels were in the hot trunk during the summer. This explains why the the other fatty acids are present...they're products of decomposition and hydrolysis, hydrogenation, oxidation, etc. It also explains why they found lower levels of oleic acid than they would have expected for a recently deceased body...the substance on the paper towels was months old (regardless of where it came from/when decomposition began).
Vass concludes in the end of his report that the sample was consistent with human decomposition and (based on what I've read this evening) I agree with his conclusion.

THC and cannibinol are indicative of the pot....I don't think that the presence of myristic, palmitic, oleic, and/or stearic acids in the pot is significant. The results section of the study says that they only found all four FA's present in half of the samples that they analyzed. They also fail to give any real quantitative information... they don't tell us HOW MUCH of each of these FA's they found in the pot samples...but I'm going to do my best to estimate and explain my thought process. :) You've got to remember that they're working with very sensitive instruments (GC-MS) in this study, so they could have been identifying very small, trace amounts of FA's. I doubt that the amount of fatty acid they found on the paper towels could have come from whatever weed KC (or whoever it was) had. I can see where they were able to identify the THC and cannibinol... but they said that SMALL amounts were present. IIRC, pot is something like 5% THC...so if there was a gram of pot in the trunk (thats about a joint) they would've found around 50 milligrams of THC (which would be easy to identify/measure). The sample size they used for the fatty acid study was 100 milligrams...so there would've been a pretty low amount of THC (they abbreviate it CBD+CBN in their table). They give the ratio of fatty acid to CBD+CBN....and they got really little numbers. Assume that the 100 milligrams of pot was 5% THC, then 5 milligrams was actually THC. If they found 0.15 was the ratio of palmitic acid to THC, you can write the equation 0.15=x/5 and then calculate that x=0.75 milligrams of palmitic acid. That means that 1 gram of pot (a joint) would have 7.5 milligrams of palmitic acid in it....which is insignificant in comparison to the amount they found on the paper towels.

OK...I probably just confused everybody....maybe I made a little bit of sense, though! I hope this helps answer the questions you guys have. I'm sorry if it doesn't...I'm not very good at explaining things. If I don't make sense, please let me know and I will do my best to do better. :)
:clap::clap::clap: Great Post!
 
  • #144
There is no doubt in my mind that the napkins contained wiped on early-stage adipocere. To make clearer what was on the napkins here's a very informative post from our WS chemist:

:clap::clap::clap: Great Post!

This post has a brief scientific explanation of Adipose Tissue/Adipocere and the report from Dr. Vass:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - MythBuster Thread Discussion Area

Three important points that I think need to be reiterated:

Point 1: The adipocere found on the napkins was early-stage adipocere.

Point 2: snipped from DogMom2JoeandWillie (single post linked above)
According to Vass' report, recently decomposing samples will have lots of oleic fatty acids (unsaturated). The unsaturated FA's are converted into saturated fatty acids (like stearic acid) over time. This means that some of the oleic acid was converted into other fatty acids while the paper towels were in the hot trunk during the summer. This explains why the the other fatty acids are present...they're products of decomposition and hydrolysis, hydrogenation, oxidation, etc. It also explains why they found lower levels of oleic acid than they would have expected for a recently deceased body...the substance on the paper towels was months old (regardless of where it came from/when decomposition began).

Point 3: #3 Chemical Extractions- showing adipocere ratios consistent with human decomposition and the presence of acetic acid.

page 16
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19801995.pdf
 
  • #145
Thank you so much, Jolyana and Harmony, for the excellent info, and your continued dedication to posting it for us.

:blowkiss:
 
  • #146
Thank you so much, Jolyana and Harmony, for the excellent info, and your continued dedication to posting it for us.

:blowkiss:

I agree, thanks Jolynna and Harmony. You both have a way of reading the reports and being able to explain things so well.

So from what you both posted, I could conclude that the original 2.6 days in the trunk, then dumped is possible? Adipocere could have formed in a very short period of time, hence the early-stage adipocere?
 
  • #147
Very interesting work done here everyone.

I wonder if there is a connection between adipocere formation ( the time it takes for a decomposing body to produce) and the higher body fat levels in very young children. I know that babies have a higher amount of fat, specifically adipose fat, for insulation purposes, IIRC. I don't know how much adipose fat is typical for the two year old and have no idea if this would speed up the process...?
 
  • #148
Very interesting work done here everyone.

I wonder if there is a connection between adipocere formation ( the time it takes for a decomposing body to produce) and the higher body fat levels in very young children. I know that babies have a higher amount of fat, specifically adipose fat, for insulation purposes, IIRC. I don't know how much adipose fat is typical for the two year old and have no idea if this would speed up the process...?


Adipocere (a waxy substance formed after death by fatty tissues) formation is not a universal phenomenon during decomposition. It is more common in remains of children, women, and overweight people, requiring both adipose (fatty) tissues and contact with humidity in the soil, or immersion in water, or the prevention of body water evaporation.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3448300171.html

Also, this is a case where adipocere was formed in three days.

Early adipocere formation

http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Early-adipocere-formation-case-report/19782320.html
 
  • #149
No need to be sorry. You're curious about a biological process and how it applies to a criminal case. Nothing wrong with that. :) As gory as decomposition is, it's something that will happen to all of us sooner or later.

I was not able to find pictures for each day of decomposition, and I suspect pinpointing it that precisely wouldn't be of much help, as bodies decompose at different rates due to different environmental factors. For example, how one body may look on day ten of decomposition could possibly be a lot different from another body on the same day of decomposition. What I did find, however, is a time lapse video of a woman decomposing at what I think is the UT Body Farm. Unfortunately, there are no time stamps, so it's impossible to tell how many days/weeks/months have gone by over the course of the video. Warning: It is VERY graphic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxT-IPvLKB0

Thank you for this. I thought I would be grossed out even though I was curious. But it looked so gentle and natural (no gross maggots and bugs to be seen really helped); of course it should all happen in a box underground as it was meant to.

To see your loved one at any stage presented here is too traumatic. I imagine seeing poor little Caylee's body would have sent me howling. Imagine someone who is not moved by that? Just wipe away the gross incriminating evidence.
 
  • #150
What I don't understand is that several websites say that "An exposed, infested body or a body in a warm environment is unlikely to form deposits of adipocere."

So I take that to mean that if the body was in the warm/hot dry trunk right from the start and was infested by insects then the adipocere woudn't have formed.

And if she was placed directly (prior to insect infestation, etc) into the cool, damp, swampy area where the adipocere would be more likely to form then how did the decomp end up in the trunk?

Was she buried (dark damp space for adipocere) and then placed into the truck (to leave decomp fluids) and then transfered to a new spot? This is the only senario I can think of that would include both adipocere and decomp...and would also allow for someone to come into contact with adipocere and wipe it off with the paper towels.

Sorry if it's been mentioned, I read through but didn't see it.

Warning: Ugly picture on linked site.
http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/body_changes/grave_wax.htm
 
  • #151
I don't know if there is a better thread for this, if so let me know.
I was watching a show last night about ancient blood rituals and one of the things that struck me is they were saying that in some instances they could tell if someone had died from strangulation because their teeth would be stained. That blood vessels in the teeth would burst and cause the teeth to darken. I wonder if suffocation would have the same effect and do baby teeth have blood vessels going to them? I tried searching google but didn't come up with anything...not even the information from the show I watched but I thought it was interesting.
 
  • #152
I don't know if there is a better thread for this, if so let me know.
I was watching a show last night about ancient blood rituals and one of the things that struck me is they were saying that in some instances they could tell if someone had died from strangulation because their teeth would be stained. That blood vessels in the teeth would burst and cause the teeth to darken. I wonder if suffocation would have the same effect and do baby teeth have blood vessels going to them? I tried searching google but didn't come up with anything...not even the information from the show I watched but I thought it was interesting.

I think its the eyes, not the teeth. Teeth do not have blood vessels.
 
  • #153
Jolynna said:
Caylee was triple-bagged in plastic, in a car trunk, during a hot, rainy Florida summer. That matters.

Snipped

It most certainly matters. That's why I think she was already in the stages of bloating and purging in the trunk. I think it is then, 2 or so days later that poor Caylee was bagged. I really do think KC put duct tape over Caylee's innocent face, intending to kill her, and tossed her in the trunk to suffocate. She probably didn't give another thought to her until the smell started to arise. After discovering her bloating and purging in the trunk (the stain) she then bagged her to ultimately throw her like trash not far from the road down the street from their home. How depressing how little she cared for this precious child.

I'm no expert, and I don't know the conditions that this decomposing pig was in, but it appears by day 2-3 there is already bloating and purging.
GRAPHIC

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNjMhZB2PHI[/ame]

I would imagine it would be much faster in the trunk of a hot and humid sunny day in FL.
 
  • #154
  • #155
  • #156
Has this been discussed? Somehow I missed this. It seems like all I've heard about is the defense claiming "junk science" regarding the air samples indicating decomposition from the trunk of Casey's car.

And yet, in this report, in addition to the air samples, they also tested some used paper towels found in that trunk. And found evidence consistent with adipocere on the paper towels.

THAT sure doesn't sound like junk science!

At this link: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19833575/detail.html scroll down to "Paper Towels".
 
  • #157
Has this been discussed? Somehow I missed this. It seems like all I've heard about is the defense claiming "junk science" regarding the air samples indicating decomposition from the trunk of Casey's car.

And yet, in this report, in addition to the air samples, they also tested some used paper towels found in that trunk. And found evidence consistent with adipocere on the paper towels.

THAT sure doesn't sound like junk science!

At this link: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19833575/detail.html scroll down to "Paper Towels".
Lots and lots and lots of discussion. LOL
 
  • #158
lots of threads on this topic, but some good analysis in this thread:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73752"]In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
  • #159
What I am still i shock over is... how can someone see/smell/touch their BABY girl all bloated and decomposing... and then go rent movies and shake their @ss at a club days later!
Apparently the whole killing thing didn't seem to bother KC much... but you'd think that seeing Caylee in that condition would scar her for life. It's like, she was over it instantly.\
how do you get on a stage and laugh and grind up on people just days after moving the dead body of your toddler????
 
  • #160
Has this been discussed? Somehow I missed this. It seems like all I've heard about is the defense claiming "junk science" regarding the air samples indicating decomposition from the trunk of Casey's car.

And yet, in this report, in addition to the air samples, they also tested some used paper towels found in that trunk. And found evidence consistent with adipocere on the paper towels.

THAT sure doesn't sound like junk science!

At this link: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19833575/detail.html scroll down to "Paper Towels".


AlwaysShocked great find!

I have also not seen this either, or somehow missed it. I wonder if the towels came from the actual trunk itself or were within that bag of garbage they'd found. It seems to me if they came right from the trunk that this is some pretty damning evidence IMO! In any case it sure doesn't seem like "novel" or "junk science" to me. I wonder now after doing some reading if the defense will attempt to claim that was from ICA attempting to clean the "dead squirrel" from under the hood of her car?! :waitasec:

What exactly is "adipocere"?

Also known as "grave wax," adipocere (from the Latin, adipo for fat and cera for wax) is a grayish-white postmortem (after death) matter caused by fat decomposition, which results from hydrolysis and hydrogenation of the lipids (fatty cells) that compose subcutaneous (under the skin) fat tissues.

Although decomposition of fatty tissues starts almost immediately after death, adipocere formation time may vary from two weeks to one or two months, on average, due to several factors, such as temperature, embalming and burial conditions, and materials surrounding the corpse. For instance, the subcutaneous adipose (fatty) tissue of corpses immersed in cold water or kept in plastic bags may undergo a uniform adipocere formation with the superficial layers of skin slipping off.

From Link: http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/adipocere

I think that the defense will have a hard time with this type of evidence!
 
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