Debate Thread for Caylee is alive

[shannon718]

I would love to see the calls for the 17th.

I know! I think they are damning.....which is why they were not released. They have to do with the upcoming homicide investigation.

 

[liltigress]

Okay.
Your response is not telling me a single thing I don't already know.

It's hard, isn't it? I remember the day it all hit me and I fully believed Caylee was dead. I cried off and on all day. I don't even know this baby.

 

[Advocate4]

It certainly does state that she is dead and in the trunk. With all due respect, I do not understand how you can deny that.

"The information we've gotten back from the lab that she was in the trunk of that car and that she is dead is certainly something we take seriously," said Orange County Sheriff's Office Sgt. John Allen.

http://www.wesh.com/news/17353349/detail.html

However, in the same news report (same URL link), there is this:

"If any evidence to the contrary is provided, it will be vigorously pursued," the statement from Capt. Angelo Nieves said. "

Why would Nieves say this? It leaves a door open IMHO ... it implies that LE is not absolutely certain of the proof in the lab results, and if LE was certain re officer Allen's comment, then why was the search not changed at that point to a Homicide investigation? They don't have to charge Casey with homicide in order to conduct a Homicide investigation. Seems if they were certain of proof of Caylee's death, they would be doing that and there would be no "Ifs".

LE is not certain of Caylee's death.

 

[kwmred]

Question....

Is the date of KC borrowing the shovel the 18th? If so, why would she need to borrow a shovel to stop the bamboo shoots from growing and hurting Caylee's feet (according to Cindy) - since KC says her daughter has been missing since the 16th. Has the 18th been firmly established?

My theory is that she borrowed the shovel (spade) to break into her parent's shed.

 

[Hunnydolll]

I believe you are 100% correct. I always thought she was trying to pinpoint their whereabouts so she could go about doing whatever she needed to do with Caylee's body without getting caught. In one set of calls she is CLEARLY at the house because she never calls it. Just their cells. That always stood out to me.

Yes, I think so too....I can't imagine her being one to ask for help with something like this ESPECIALLY to her mother! She's too cold, calculating and methodical to ask for help with this IMO

I think it was to make sure nobody was close by when she made those phone calls so she could see how much time she had to do her deeds...

- So flurry of phone calls on 16th - burying the body ? - phone calls to make sure parents where not near

- No release of phone info on 17th - calls to whom (police keeping close to vest)? Hmmmmmm...I wonder wonder who she called!?

- So flurry of more calls on 18th - digging up body ? (phone calls to make sure parents were not near)

(Sorry if I'm off on any of the dates...my head is swimming today!)

 

[liltigress]

My theory is that she borrowed the shovel (spade) to break into her parent's shed.

I thought that too but as others pointed out, the garage has plenty of garden tools and such she could have used. She backed her car into the garage on the same date so she had access.

I'm gonna guess that her intentions were to bury Caylee but she found it to be more of a job than she bargained for.

 

[shannon718]

However, in the same news report (same URL link), there is this:

"If any evidence to the contrary is provided, it will be vigorously pursued," the statement from Capt. Angelo Nieves said. "

Why would Nieves say this? It leaves a door open IMHO ... it implies that LE is not absolutely certain of the proof in the lab results, and if LE was certain re officer Allen's comment, then why was the search not changed at that point to a Homicide investigation? They don't have to charge Casey with homicide in order to conduct a Homicide investigation. Seems if they were certain of proof of Caylee's death, they would be doing that and there would be no "Ifs".

LE is not certain of Caylee's death.

The key word is 'if"...which implies there is not. That is PR because they knew JB/Anthony's would attack the forensics in their complete desperation. It is damning and very final. They have been attacking LE and their performance constantly. What he said in my opinion is to preempt the comments that they knew would be coming from the other side. Almost all communications ceased between the A's and LE when the forensics came out. that is very telling.

 

[Evan's Mom]

It's hard, isn't it? I remember the day it all hit me and I fully believed Caylee was dead. I cried off and on all day. I don't even know this baby.

I have too. It just breaks my heart.
Some nights it's the main topic of conversation in my household with everyone, including my bf and 3 kids.
We waffle back and forth all the time and I've said to them many times that in my head, I know Caylee is gone.
And then I decide that regardless of all the evidence, I still want to hold out hope for Caylee and that she will be found alive.

 

[liltigress]

I have too. It just breaks my heart.
Some nights it's the main topic of conversation in my household with everyone, including my bf and 3 kids.
We waffle back and forth all the time and I've said to them many times that in my head, I know Caylee is gone.
And then I decide that regardless of all the evidence, I still want to hold out hope for Caylee and that she will be found alive.

You're not alone. Even with me, as a believer that she is gone, the day it's announced or her body found is still going to be a hard day on us all.

I don't believe we will hear "I told you so" between members here, I think it will be a heart sinking day.

I held out my last little bit of hope on Caylee's birthday. I kept watching the boards and cams hoping she would walk up the sidewalk. That was my last hope.

 

[liltigress]

The key word is 'if"...which implies there is not. That is PR because they knew JB/Anthony's would attack the forensics in their complete desperation. It is damning and very final. They have been attacking LE and their performance constantly. What he said in my opinion is to preempt the comments that they knew would be coming from the other side. Almost all communications ceased between the A's and LE when the forensics came out. that is very telling.

I agree Shannon. That is about the only choice they really have at this point.

IMO, LE is handling this as a murder investigation but for sake of law suits they have to state they are taking credible tips seriously.

 

[FootballMom]

However, in the same news report (same URL link), there is this:

"If any evidence to the contrary is provided, it will be vigorously pursued," the statement from Capt. Angelo Nieves said. "

You beat me to it... I was also going to add the interview the following day with Matt Irwin... I transcribed most that interview last night but it is at home and I was hoping to avoid having to do it again...

 

[kwmred]

I thought that too but as others pointed out, the garage has plenty of garden tools and such she could have used. She backed her car into the garage on the same date so she had access.

I'm gonna guess that her intentions were to bury Caylee but she found it to be more of a job than she bargained for.

Then I totally don't understand why she borrowed it because the neighbor said it was like a gardening tool (small).

 

[liltigress]

Then I totally don't understand why she borrowed it because the neighbor said it was like a gardening tool (small).

I don't understand either. I'm hoping more news comes out soon so we're not making ourselves crazy guessing. :waitasec:

 

[shannon718]

Then I totally don't understand why she borrowed it because the neighbor said it was like a gardening tool (small).

No...it was a standard shovel and not small at all. Remember when LE took it into evidence? They needed to large bags to conceal it.

 

[Advocate4]

The key word is 'if"...which implies there is not. That is PR because they knew JB/Anthony's would attack the forensics in their complete desperation. It is damning and very final. They have been attacking LE and their performance constantly. What he said in my opinion is to preempt the comments that they knew would be coming from the other side. Almost all communications ceased between the A's and LE when the forensics came out. that is very telling.

Further from that same news link:

The Orange Sheriff’s Office said again Monday that "there is a strong probability" that Caylee Anthony is dead, noting that investigators have "additional evidence that has not been made public."

The statement came a day after investigators for the first time on the record acknowledged that recent FBI lab tests indicated that Caylee Anthony's body was in her mother's trunk and that the child is dead.

I feel the words "probability" and "indicated" are hedging by LE in addition to the "if". Having worked many years in law offices, I recognize this type of hedging as a legal-speak construct to leave doors open when evidence is not sufficient to establish proof. I've taken the liberty of consulting a dictionary to check out the wording specifically as follows:

From: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/

Probability
1: the quality or state of being probable

Probable
1 : supported by evidence strong enough to establish presumption but not proof

Indicated (from Indicate)
b: to be a sign, symptom, or index of <the high fever indicates a serious condition>

Proof
1 a: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact

Cogent
2 : having power to convince of the truth, rightness, or reality of something :

Convince
to bring (as by argument) to belief, consent, or a course of action


And, granted the Anthonys have apparently cut off most or all communication with LE since the forensic information came out, but this is not necessarily telling to me -- given they don't believe what LE is saying, they may simply have chosen to not argue with LE about it.

 

[suggie]

June 15th is the date Caylee is last seen. KC wrote on facebook on June 24th to Amy about not living at home for nine days DRRAAAMMAAA, and it coincides with 31 days since KC last seen Caylee.
KC is tracking the number of days because the event is memorable to her. This is her way of memoralizing her daughter.
Caylee is dead and needs to be found.

 

[kwmred]

No...it was a standard shovel and not small at all. Remember when LE took it into evidence? They needed to large bags to conceal it.

Thank you, Shannon. I started to look through the 400+ pages again and just couldn't.

 

[shannon718]

Thank you, Shannon. I started to look through the 400+ pages again and just couldn't.

I know what you mean...they are infuriating to read.

 

[kwmred]

Further from that same news link:

The Orange Sheriff’s Office said again Monday that "there is a strong probability" that Caylee Anthony is dead, noting that investigators have "additional evidence that has not been made public."

The statement came a day after investigators for the first time on the record acknowledged that recent FBI lab tests indicated that Caylee Anthony's body was in her mother's trunk and that the child is dead.

I feel the words "probability" and "indicated" are hedging by LE in addition to the "if". Having worked many years in law offices, I recognize this type of hedging as a legal-speak construct to leave doors open when evidence is not sufficient to establish proof. I've taken the liberty of consulting a dictionary to check out the wording specifically as follows:

From: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/

Probability
1: the quality or state of being probable

Probable
1 : supported by evidence strong enough to establish presumption but not proof

Indicated (from Indicate)
b: to be a sign, symptom, or index of <the high fever indicates a serious condition>

Proof
1 a: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact

Cogent
2 : having power to convince of the truth, rightness, or reality of something :

Convince
to bring (as by argument) to belief, consent, or a course of action


And, granted the Anthonys have apparently cut off most or all communication with LE since the forensic information came out, but this is not necessarily telling to me -- given they don't believe what LE is saying, they may simply have chosen to not argue with LE about it.

I have asked this before and not received an answer. So, I'll try again. If the Anthony's believe that Caylee is alive then why did they shut down the trust fund for finding Caylee. And, now have a fund for Casey's defense?

 

[gmt]

on page 298+299 There is a MANNY down on the CC: of the emails along with Casey and Juliett. Please see what you think as Manny is male Nanny. On The doc. released from LE.