Defending against an intruder

[Holdontoyourhat]

So the intruders used a garrote ,a stun gun AND ligatures to restrain a 6years old kid?
Sounds more like wanting to restrain Hong Kong.

And why did they feed herright there,they would have taken her away anyway,right?

That garrote, a stun gun, and the 2nd ligature wouldn't work on Hong Kong. Nice try, though.

Three adults, garrote, 2nd ligature, stun gun, and unknown blunt instrument vs. 6 year old girl. It seems they were really prepared, huh?

Maybe they had a large budget.

 

[maya.morgen]

That garrote, a stun gun, and the 2nd ligature wouldn't work on Hong Kong. Nice try, though.

Three adults, garrote, 2nd ligature, stun gun, and unknown blunt instrument vs. 6 year old girl. It seems they were really prepared, huh?

Maybe they had a large budget.

Really prepared but stupid enough to kill her?I thought they wanted some money?
And why would these mega prepared kidnappers with a large budget sexually assault her?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Really prepared but stupid enough to kill her?I thought they wanted some money?
And why would these mega prepared kidnappers with a large budget sexually assault her?

I don't think they ever wanted money. Asking for 118K when JR could've come up with more, and the sexual assault and murder of JBR, all contradict a kidnap for ransom. They wanted to kidnap JBR for long term but something went wrong, so they effectively killed her. Effectively meaning that she was strangled AND headbashed so she couldn't be revived. That MO isn't without precedent, Bob Crane was murdered that way.

 

[sandraladeda]

I don't think they ever wanted money. Asking for 118K when JR could've come up with more, and the sexual assault and murder of JBR, all contradict a kidnap for ransom. They wanted to kidnap JBR for long term but something went wrong, so they effectively killed her. Effectively meaning that she was strangled AND headbashed so she couldn't be revived. That MO isn't without precedent, Bob Crane was murdered that way.

Were Bob Crane's panties changed, was he fed a snack of pineapple? :crazy:

 

[Chrishope]

I don't think they ever wanted money. Asking for 118K when JR could've come up with more, and the sexual assault and murder of JBR, all contradict a kidnap for ransom.

Sometimes you come dangerously close to rational thinking. I suspect you are just playing devils advocate (which is nicer than saying you're trolling).

 

[BBB167893]

What did he say and do you have a link? That would be appreciated.

Coming up. Here you be:

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/jul/13/this-is-not-the-end-of-the-story/

"The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer," Beckner said.

And here:

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/jul/09/experts-lacys-letter-ramsey-could-have-lasting-imp/

It’s also not clear that Boulder police embrace Lacy’s public exoneration In a statement released by Chief Mark Beckner on Wednesday, he called the DNA that Lacy used as evidence to eliminate the Ramseys “a significant finding.” But he didn’t echo or acknowledge Lacy’s opinion or issue a similar apology. He declined all further comment.

He also said that it would be inappropriate to comment on how the DA has handled the case. If the FBI and the others you mention feel the same way, that might explain their reticence.

Trip DeMuth had this to say about it:

Former Boulder prosecutor Trip DeMuth, who worked in Hunter’s office, said of Beckner’s statement, “It’s very telling how careful they are not to agree that this clears the Ramseys of suspicion.”



Yes you can. If the fingerprints were found on the doorknob of the room where the items were stolen, and LE suspects the homeowners of the theft anyway, they're not reaching a logical conclusion. They're circumventing what the evidence suggests in favor of an imagined scenario. How logical is that?

Don't give me that. It's only illogical if the fingerprint can be matched to someone who was there that day. Same deal with the DNA: until it's proven to be from an intruder, there's no way you can exonerate the Rs with all the other evidence against them.
Kane knows the evidence probably better than anyone. He also knows that DNA is everywhere and infinitely transferrable. The DA said herself they can't clear anyone without a court conviction. She's the one imagining things. It's a known fact that she has never been impartial in this case.


Sounds like sour grapes.

I figured that would be your response.

 

[BBB167893]

RDI has grandiose ideas that otherwise contradict the crime scene, like 'parents lovingly wrapping their child up' which is nothing short of rediculous when you consider yet other pesky facts like the injuries to JBR and the words in the RN depicting very unusual and graphic violence on a child.

Tell it to the FBI, who saw everything you say makes it "ridiculous" and came out on our side. Don't jump on us.

 

[Toltec]

This foreign faction theory is just false.

A panicked mother makes more sense.

Patsy, in a fit of rage picked up the flashlight and struck JonBenet over the head. Patsy wrote the note...Patsy cut the cord and fashioned a garrote. She used the rest of the cord on JonBenet's wrists. She used her paintbrush. The cord and duct tape came off a painting she had in the basement. There was duct tape found in the home...in one of the junk drawers.

All these items came from the home:

The cord, duct tape, paintbrush, writing tablet, pen....

Remember the Danielle Van Damm case? She was taken from her bedroom and out of the home, raped and killed.

The monster who shall not be named snuck into the home through the unlocked garage door, entered Danielle's room, knocked her teeth out with one punch, than picked her up, went down the stairs, out the nearest door.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Tell it to the FBI, who saw everything you say makes it "ridiculous" and came out on our side. Don't jump on us.

I'm sorry, SD, but you're going to have to get some source or link, and a contemporary one, that says the FBI are on your side. Just because YOU say this doesn't make it so.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I don't think they ever wanted money. Asking for 118K when JR could've come up with more, and the sexual assault and murder of JBR, all contradict a kidnap for ransom.

Sometimes you come dangerously close to rational thinking. I suspect you are just playing devils advocate (which is nicer than saying you're trolling).

What I'm doing is coming up with new ideas:

That JBR was 'partially packed up' when found is a new idea for me. I never before realized that the blanket, tape, and 2nd ligature could've been preparation to move JBR to a car.

That PR spelled 'advize' in both exemplars, while the RN author spelled 'advise' strongly suggests they are different authors. RDI circumvents an obvious conclusion in favor of their own 'imagined' one. That is where PR deliberately altered the spelling of this one single word to cleverly mislead all those investigators who never even noticed.

The pineapple possibly intended to be used as a reward for JBR over a days long car trip, never occurred to me.

The idea that a dozen cutout words could've effectively replaced 1500 handwriting characters, and oh boy what an obvious advantage that would have for PR An obvious preference that just about anybody would have in PRs' shoes. Again, RDI circumvents the obvious with an imagined vision of why it would somehow make sense for PR to leave her own personal handwriting at a capital crime scene. Including my favorite imagined vision: the murder was irrational, therefore PR was simply being irrational when she handwrote the RN also. Circular reasoning at its finest.



Thanks to Websleuths sleuthers.

 

[BBB167893]

I'm sorry, SD, but you're going to have to get some source or link, and a contemporary one, that says the FBI are on your side. Just because YOU say this doesn't make it so.

True, just because I say something doesn't make it so. But I pride myself of being a man of my word.

Sorry, Holdon, but if you want a link from sometime within the last few months, I obviously don't know of any. Because they haven't said anything. The DA has specifically phased them (and anyone else who doesn't follow her in lockstep) out of the case. I don't know about you, but I'm not a big fan of that kind of "investigation." That sounds like something out of China, Zimbabwe or Putin's Russia to me. I notice she hasn't asked any outsiders to evalute her conclusions. Plus, the Feds have all they can do chasing after terrorists (the real foreign factions).

As for a more general source, that I got plenty of. Try "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town," to start with. I can even give you page numbers.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

True, just because I say something doesn't make it so. But I pride myself of being a man of my word.

Sorry, Holdon, but if you want a link from sometime within the last few months, I obviously don't know of any. Because they haven't said anything. The DA has specifically phased them (and anyone else who doesn't follow her in lockstep) out of the case. I don't know about you, but I'm not a big fan of that kind of "investigation." That sounds like something out of China, Zimbabwe or Putin's Russia to me. I notice she hasn't asked any outsiders to evalute her conclusions. Plus, the Feds have all they can do chasing after terrorists (the real foreign factions).

As for a more general source, that I got plenty of. Try "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town," to start with. I can even give you page numbers.

No they don't. They chase kidnappers too.

The fact is, the DA in Boulder has gone out of their way to exhonerate the R's, and that leaves an attempted kidnapping of JBR as a real possiblity.

 

[BBB167893]

No they don't. They chase kidnappers too.

Well, first of all, if they don't chase terrorists, I damn well want my tax money back! But you make a good point: they do chase kidnappers. They didn't think this was one.

The fact is, the DA in Boulder has gone out of their way to exhonerate the R's,

Boy, did you hit the nail on the head! That's EXACTLY why she is not to be believed at all. Her biases are clear and can be read about in any number of articles.

and that leaves an attempted kidnapping of JBR as a real possiblity.

If it were any other case, I'd have to agree with you.

 

[Chrishope]

Holdontoyourhat;2503878]What I'm doing is coming up with new ideas:

That JBR was 'partially packed up' when found is a new idea for me. I never before realized that the blanket, tape, and 2nd ligature could've been preparation to move JBR to a car.

Unlikely. First because the kidnapper(s) had already got her out of her room and down to the first floor of the house w/o incident. There was no reason to take her downstairs and back up again in order to get to the car. This would be especially true if the head bash and garroting had been done upstairs.

That PR spelled 'advize' in both exemplars, while the RN author spelled 'advise' strongly suggests they are different authors. RDI circumvents an obvious conclusion in favor of their own 'imagined' one. That is where PR deliberately altered the spelling of this one single word to cleverly mislead all those investigators who never even noticed.

Rather than pretend that a difference in spelling "strongly" suggests different authors, more telling is the fact that even the R's own hired hand writing expert couldn't rule out PR as the author. What is strong is the fact that several handwriting experts think PR is probably the author.

The pineapple possibly intended to be used as a reward for JBR over a days long car trip, never occurred to me.

One little bowl of pineapple was going to be a reward for a days long trip? Pretty weak.

The idea that a dozen cutout words could've effectively replaced 1500 handwriting characters, and oh boy what an obvious advantage that would have for PR An obvious preference that just about anybody would have in PRs' shoes. Again, RDI circumvents the obvious with an imagined vision of why it would somehow make sense for PR to leave her own personal handwriting at a capital crime scene. Including my favorite imagined vision: the murder was irrational, therefore PR was simply being irrational when she handwrote the RN also. Circular reasoning at its finest.


It makes no sense at all for an intruder to write the note. An intruder would be the one who'd cut words out of a magazine. An intruder's note would have been short and to the point.

But of course you know all this. You're just playing devil's advocate.

 

[DeeDee249]

What kidnapped, frightened, sexually assaulted child would consider a bowl of pineapple a "reward"?

 

[sandraladeda]

What kidnapped, frightened, sexually assaulted child would consider a bowl of pineapple a "reward"?

Ummmm, a Hawaiian one? :waitasec:

(sorry, couldn't resist!! :angel

 

[sandraladeda]

What kidnapped, frightened, sexually assaulted child would consider a bowl of pineapple a "reward"?

But my real response is, what kidnapper is unable to restrain a puny 6 year old? Why would they care to keep her happy? They've just kidnapped and assaulted her! ("Don't take it personally, kiddo. This is aimed at your daddy, not you. Cheer up, have some pineapple!")

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Rather than pretend that a difference in spelling "strongly" suggests different authors, more telling is the fact that even the R's own hired hand writing expert couldn't rule out PR as the author. What is strong is the fact that several handwriting experts think PR is probably the author.

What you believe is a strength is really RDI's biggest weakness. What is missing is any consensus by any board of CDE's that PR wrote the note. Its a rather glaring thing thats missing from the RDI side. Its why RDI 'don't fly'. In actual, real fact, a United States Secret Service expert stated that PR had nothing to do with the note. They didn't include her authorship as even being a possiblity.

Zero ABFDE consensus, and US Secret Service conclusion "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." is good enough for me. That its not good enough for you is somehow not surprising.

This is more RDI circumventing the obvious and inventing new explanations for RDI phenomenon. Go ahead, give it a try. Why did PR spell the RN word 'advise' as 'advize' in both her right and left hand exemplars? Its not a phenomenon in IDI: the RN author and PR have different spelling abilities because (guess what) they're different people.

 

[DeeDee249]

But my real response is, what kidnapper is unable to restrain a puny 6 year old? Why would they care to keep her happy? They've just kidnapped and assaulted her! ("Don't take it personally, kiddo. This is aimed at your daddy, not you. Cheer up, have some pineapple!")

Exactly.
Actually, those restraints couldn't have restrained any conscious child. The tape either. What victim wouldn't struggle against either?
You'd try to thrust the tape off with your tongue (and there'd be forensic evidence of this). You'd wriggle your wrists, and there'd be bruising (if you were alive).

One of the things that made me suspect the parents right away was reading JR's account of finding her body. He said her wrists were bound tight, and he struggled to free them, only freeing one. This has to be a lie- if you look at the ligature furrows on her neck, you'd see a similar kind of mark on her wrists. The wrist furrow would be red if she'd been alive at the time, white if it was pulled tight postmortem (blanching, or movement of blood as skin is pressed as in livor mortis), and the coroner would have seen and noted either . Also, he claimed her legs were taped together. There was no forensic evidence of this either, no marks, no tape residue, and when she was brought up in full rigor, her legs would retain their taped together position even if the tape had been removed.
Similarly, if she had been truly restrained at the wrists while alive and JR had really removed one of the wrist restraints, her wrists would NOT be 15 inches apart as they were when she was brought up, but pulled close together, as anyone truly trying to restrain someone would have tied them.
Then, to top it off, you have JR claiming to have removed the tape, removed a wrist restraint, and remove the tape on the legs, all in the one minute or so from the time he looked into the wineceller, "found" her and unwrapped the blanket. AND with FW right behind him (who never mentioned seeing JR do any of these things).

 

[BBB167893]

What you believe is a strength is really RDI's biggest weakness. What is missing is any consensus by any board of CDE's that PR wrote the note. Its a rather glaring thing thats missing from the RDI side. Its why RDI 'don't fly'. In actual, real fact, a United States Secret Service expert stated that PR had nothing to do with the note. They didn't include her authorship as even being a possiblity.

Zero ABFDE consensus, and US Secret Service conclusion "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." is good enough for me. That its not good enough for you is somehow not surprising.

The Secret Service guy made a preliminary observation when the police hadn't even collected a wide range of PR's handwriting, as Ubowski pointed out. Not counting the Rs hired guns, he was the only one who even came close to eliminating her. The rest of them said she either wrote it, or they couldn't say she wrote it in court because of the disguised letters and worn-down felt pen, both of which make analysis extremely difficult.

And another ten say she did write it. How many do you need?