Defending against an intruder

[DeeDee249]

I think I disagree with your rule, because it seems to conflict with the whole idea of criminal profiling. Profilers depend on what one person thinks of another person, as a person. They hope their profile causes a change in one person's perception of the other person's guilt or innocence. The profiles I've read for JBR's killer state that it could be a loner male with money/alcohol/women/religion issues, someone who is obsessed with movies, etc.

I'm not sure 'someone who had a controlling mother' or 'someone who cared more about looks than character' was ever mentioned by the profilers.

I never mentioned the profilers or what they thought. I simply stated that when determining whether someone could have committed a crime, it's important to be objective and take a step back.
Profilers also depend on what a particular personality type could be capable of doing. COULD a seemingly hovering and protective mother whose world revolved around her daughter be capable of killing that daughter? If the killing was accidental, of course the answer is YES. Yes for anyone, for that matter; anyone is capable of killing someone accidentally. Could that same mother, rife with "issues" resulting from her own life, including a serious cancer and treatments that cause a slew of emotional, hormonal and
physical problems on their own, have done so? Yes. Yes. Yes. And been capable of the coverup (but not alone).

 

[coloradokares]

I never mentioned the profilers or what they thought. I simply stated that when determining whether someone could have committed a crime, it's important to be objective and take a step back.
Profilers also depend on what a particular personality type could be capable of doing. COULD a seemingly hovering and protective mother whose world revolved around her daughter be capable of killing that daughter? If the killing was accidental, of course the answer is YES. Yes for anyone, for that matter; anyone is capable of killing someone accidentally. Could that same mother, rife with "issues" resulting from her own life, including a serious cancer and treatments that cause a slew of emotional, hormonal and
physical problems on their own, have done so? Yes. Yes. Yes. And been capable of the coverup (but not alone).

You all know that when I do detailed study of Who Was Patsy Ramsey I see baggage and issues. Add chemotherapy and a battle against cancer in that mix and it is a recipe for disaster. If anyone has a sincere interest in the precatutionaries of chem I could read out my DHs. Rage is mentioned specifically at least on the one he is on.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Now, be careful here, Holdon. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm trying to be a good sport about this.

What I think is she was taught distorted values. I think she grew up in an unhealthy environment.

Hang in there SD, and let me lay this one on ya.

I think you have characterized PR as having a less than adequate upbringing. That she forced JBR to put looks over character. That she was a product of a bad family. Others said she has baggage, and is rife with issues, with some resulting from cancer. That her behavior could even be attributed to cancer.

You also have said that PR is 'over the top' with her drama queen antics. Please fill in anything I've missed.

Suppose, just for argument sake, that an intruder did it. How would you characterize the killer? You've got the crime scene, the ransom note, etc. but you can't blame another household member.

Put your best criminal profilers hat on.

 

[DeeDee249]

OK- the killer is an American-born white woman aged 35-45 cancer survivor, affluent, raised in the South who is a former Pageant winner and failed Miss America hopeful raising a daughter to pick up where she left off.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

OK- the killer is an American-born white woman aged 35-45 cancer survivor, affluent, raised in the South who is a former Pageant winner and failed Miss America hopeful raising a daughter to pick up where she left off.

In bold are things I'd ask you to support in evidence. The rest is funny, but obviously you can't derive the pageant or cancer stuff from the crime scene evidence, can you? Not unless you use ESP.

 

[BBB167893]

Hang in there SD, and let me lay this one on ya.

I got no problem with you layin' on on me. Just don't claim I said something I didn't say, is all.

I think you have characterized PR as having a less than adequate upbringing.

Well, maybe I have. All I have is what I can see, and from what I can gather, Nedra was not the kind of mother I would wish for. It's possible, and I admit this is just informed speculation, that her father may have been abusive. Just spitballing.

That she forced JBR to put looks over character.

Actually I said that her mother taught her to put looks over character and she (PR) just thought that was how you raised a daughter. "Hey," she thought, "I turned out okay!" You're trying to make it out like I'm saying she was a monster, and I'm clearly not. I'm saying she is a victim herself.

That she was a product of a bad family.

Depends on how you define "bad." My father came from a family that was not a very supportive one, if you will. So I'm not just coming out of left field with this. I saw the kind of stains it left on his soul. And as great as he was, every now and then his demons would haunt him, and make life difficult for my mother and his two sons.

Others said she has baggage, and is rife with issues, with some resulting from cancer.

"Baggage" and "issues" are the right words I would use. And I do not blame her for it. I couldn't blame my own father for his upbringing, something he had no control over. And I will say this as well: I KNOWcancer will leave you with some issues. I was forced to watch both of my parents fight that horrible disease. And the things it did to them...you don't want to know and I would like very much to forget. So nothing you can say will change my mind about that aspect of it.

That her behavior could even be attributed to cancer.

I believe that. Like I said, cancer is devastating to the mind. And even if you beat it back, it leaves its mark on you. It changes you. And that's not even mentioning the possible mental damage her treatments and the drugs she had taken may have done to her. I know what they can do as well. Terrible things. Bad times.

Holdon, you always ask me and some other RDIs to show you something from the Rs' past that makes us think they could do this. That's what we're all trying to do here. I mean, wouldn't you agree that someone who had an unhealthy childhood and unresolved family issues is more likely to kill their children? Doesn't seem to make a dent, though. That's what bothers me. I can't speak for anyone else.

You also have said that PR is 'over the top' with her drama queen antics.

Not only me, Holdon. Even people who knew her said that.

Please fill in anything I've missed.

Maybe something will come to me.

Suppose, just for argument sake, that an intruder did it.

Sure. We're just talking here. I'll play ball with you.

How would you characterize the killer? You've got the crime scene, the ransom note, etc. but you can't blame another household member.

Put your best criminal profilers hat on.

Okay. But let me say one thing in advance. I keep two files on lined paper in my desk on this case. One involves a family murder, the other an intruder. And let me say this: you mentioned the criminal profilers first. If you want to get into that area, I'll accomodate you. We can do it right here.

I'll go along with you on two conditions. One, I think that my scenario would be better on the "Another Look At Intruder" thread. Hope that's all right. The second condition will be named at the end of the post. I'll see you there, Holdon.

 

[Ames]

LOL!!


I think the delicious pineapple was going to be used to bribe police if their car was stopped on the way out of town. lol

Well, they should have made some pineapple doughnuts, if that was the case. LOL Goodness knows the intruder had enough time in the Ramsey household, to do that.

 

[BBB167893]

May I say something?

Actually, you can get "cancer stuff" from the evidence, no ESP needed. The note includes phrases like "99% chance" and "100% chance." Linda Wilcox, former house employee for the Rs, said, quote:

"That's how she (Patsy) talked because of her cancer. That's how you talk when you are around someone with cancer."

Speaking from DEEPLY personal experience, I can tell you she's not just talking out her nether regions. I learned to live with that kind of talk.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

May I say something?

Actually, you can get "cancer stuff" from the evidence, no ESP needed. The note includes phrases like "99% chance" and "100% chance." Linda Wilcox, former house employee for the Rs, said, quote:

"That's how she (Patsy) talked because of her cancer. That's how you talk when you are around someone with cancer."

Speaking from DEEPLY personal experience, I can tell you she's not just talking out her nether regions. I learned to live with that kind of talk.

Thats funny, I've known several people with cancer of one type or another. Never did they say "I stand a 99% chance" of anything.

The connection is tenuous at best. Its a lot easier to connect the closing salutation 'Victory!' to a socialist revolutionary, than '100% chance' to a cancer patient. Or to a meterologist. An FBI profiler in fact connected 'Victory!' to a revolutionary, while never mentioning a cancer patient.

Those guys sure know what they're doing, a lot more than you or I.

 

[DeeDee249]

In bold are things I'd ask you to support in evidence. The rest is funny, but obviously you can't derive the pageant or cancer stuff from the crime scene evidence, can you? Not unless you use ESP.

How did you know? You must have ESP yourself.

 

[BBB167893]

Thats funny, I've known several people with cancer of one type or another. Never did they say "I stand a 99% chance" of anything.

The connection is tenuous at best. Its a lot easier to connect the closing salutation 'Victory!' to a socialist revolutionary, than '100% chance' to a cancer patient. Or to a meterologist. An FBI profiler in fact connected 'Victory!' to a revolutionary, while never mentioning a cancer patient.

Those guys sure know what they're doing, a lot more than you or I.

They may not use that exact phrase, Holdon, but they get pretty good at those percentages pretty darn quick. Having lived through it twice, I ought to know. Don't forget, it was someone who knew them who knew how they conversed who pointed it out.

Plenty of FBI profilers say a 40-ish Southern woman wrote this note. No mention of socialist revolutionaries.

 

[DeeDee249]

Was Fidel anywhere near Boulder that year? Those Santerians really get around, you know.

 

[Ames]

They may not use that exact phrase, Holdon, but they get pretty good at those percentages pretty darn quick. Having lived through it twice, I ought to know. Don't forget, it was someone who knew them who knew how they conversed who pointed it out.

Plenty of FBI profilers say a 40-ish Southern woman wrote this note. No mention of socialist revolutionaries.

Not to mention that JOHN RAMSEY himself, said that he too...believed that a woman wrote the RN..and HE should know.

 

[Zak]

Thats funny, I've known several people with cancer of one type or another. Never did they say "I stand a 99% chance" of anything.

The connection is tenuous at best. Its a lot easier to connect the closing salutation 'Victory!' to a socialist revolutionary, than '100% chance' to a cancer patient. Or to a meterologist. An FBI profiler in fact connected 'Victory!' to a revolutionary, while never mentioning a cancer patient.

Those guys sure know what they're doing, a lot more than you or I.

Perhaps you should read the R's DOI. On page 80 PR says " Later I learned that Stage IV ovarian cancer has a 95 percent fatality rate within five years".

Cancer patients do talk percentage rates and odds. I, like superdave, have had several close family members with cancer refer to those types of things. When I would accompany my father to his doctor appts. I would hear Dad ask the doctor or I would ask the doc myself what his chances were for different procedures and surgeries. I, then, would listen to my Dad repeat those percentages or chances of surviving to my sister on the phone.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Perhaps you should read the R's DOI. On page 80 PR says " Later I learned that Stage IV ovarian cancer has a 95 percent fatality rate within five years".

Cancer patients do talk percentage rates and odds. I, like superdave, have had several close family members with cancer refer to those types of things. When I would accompany my father to his doctor appts. I would hear Dad ask the doctor or I would ask the doc myself what his chances were for different procedures and surgeries. I, then, would listen to my Dad repeat those percentages or chances of surviving to my sister on the phone.

Then you are connecting the 'you stand a 99% chance" remark to a cancer patient. To what do you connect the closing salutation "Victory!" then?

 

[sandraladeda]

I can't say I put much weight on the "99% chance" being related to having been through cancer treatment.....imho

 

[coloradokares]

Then you are connecting the 'you stand a 99% chance" remark to a cancer patient. To what do you connect the closing salutation "Victory!" then?

My whole world is percentages. I hate that because it is like waiting for the sword to fall. I have had dear loved ones die of cancer as well. I keep telling myself I do not have an expiration date.

 

[LI_Mom]

Thats funny, I've known several people with cancer of one type or another. Never did they say "I stand a 99% chance" of anything.

The connection is tenuous at best. Its a lot easier to connect the closing salutation 'Victory!' to a socialist revolutionary, than '100% chance' to a cancer patient. Or to a meterologist. An FBI profiler in fact connected 'Victory!' to a revolutionary, while never mentioning a cancer patient.

Those guys sure know what they're doing, a lot more than you or I.

What kind of serious kidnappers/killers would come out & admit to the opposition that their plan might FAIL?

They might know that no plan has a 100% success rate BUT they'd never come out & admit that.

Especially since they go to so much trouble to lay out how organized & powerful they are.... why all of a sudden would they play coy & admit they could lose out on the big payoff?

Small foreign faction with a a confidence problem.

 

[coloradokares]

What kind of serious kidnappers/killers would come out & admit to the opposition that their plan might FAIL?

They might know that no plan has a 100% success rate BUT they'd never come out & admit that.

Especially since they go to so much trouble to lay out how organized & powerful they are.... why all of a sudden would they play coy & admit they could lose out on the big payoff?

Small foreign faction with a a confidence problem.

You would have a confidence problem when you realized that a SFF of 2 with a body in the basement should in theory at last not have great odds of pulling this off. I still say $$$$$$ talks.

 

[BBB167893]

Perhaps you should read the R's DOI. On page 80 PR says " Later I learned that Stage IV ovarian cancer has a 95 percent fatality rate within five years".

Cancer patients do talk percentage rates and odds. I, like superdave, have had several close family members with cancer refer to those types of things. When I would accompany my father to his doctor appts. I would hear Dad ask the doctor or I would ask the doc myself what his chances were for different procedures and surgeries. I, then, would listen to my Dad repeat those percentages or chances of surviving to my sister on the phone.

It's awful, isn't it?