Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

[Bluebelle]

bold by me
That neighbor's interview is here:

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Couty, Jean-0915.pdf

One other interesting thing the neighbor says is that she thought Cindy, not Casey, was Caylee's primary caretaker...

I’ve also been wondering if LE is holding back other neighbor interviews that might reveal more of the fight on June 15th, so that those neighbors don’t come under direct fire from the A’s…

 

[Dear Prudence]

bold by me
That neighbor's interview is here:

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Couty, Jean-0915.pdf

Thank you, thank you! I've been searching all afternoon because I knew there was something official and not just from LP with a neighbor talking about a fight. It definetly doesn't prove there was fight on June 15th but I think it does show a possibility. It shows there were loud and in my opinion nasty fights, well at least on KC's part. I have never and will never talk to my mother like that.

The date is iffy because the neighbor just can't remember but he says 3 months prior at first. The interview is on September 15. When I count 3 months prior to that date I get June 15th. but YM says so it was May. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[eddeva]

Thank you, thank you! I've been searching all afternoon because I knew there was something official and not just from LP with a neighbor talking about a fight. It definetly doesn't prove there was fight on June 15th but I think it does show a possibility. It shows there were loud and in my opinion nasty fights, well at least on KC's part. I have never and will never talk to my mother like that.

The date is iffy because the neighbor just can't remember but he says 3 months prior at first. The interview is on September 15. When I count 3 months prior to that date I get June 15th. but YM says so it was May. Am I doing something wrong?

i'm getting june too prudence.

 

[Dear Prudence]

i'm getting june too prudence.

Thanks! I thought I could count to three. I don't think what the neighbor described was THE fight on June 15th, although I'm not ruling it out. I think it more likely the 2 times he heard KC cussing out her Mom were during the first two weeks of June and show an escalating feud between KC and Cindy that culminated on the 15th.

 

[LambChop]

Also watch Cindy's body language when she denies the fight happened. She is very upset whenever this is mentioned.

 

[SuziQ]

Actually, MF was thought to be a highly skilled detective. He was only on the OJ case for 30 minutes, and found the weapon (a Swiss Army knife that OJ left on the edge of the bathtub). However, a ham-handed crime scene staff lost the thing after he left. That's not the ONLY mjistake they made, either.

The racist crap was apparently just pillow talk. Even the people whom he arrested didn't beleive that he was a racist.

He was, however, a rabid sexist.

This is a perfect example as to why ZG needs to clear her name. This type of stuff lives on forever.

 

[BondJamesBond]

has anything really came up over the other chase scene that ga mentioned happened in June but then figured out it happened a few months prior?????? I think things were starting to implode and fathers day---it happened....
I also lean to the June 7/9th bit only because I'm sure things were tense---

just another little thing....did anyone see any bruising around the neck????

Worked out on the 6/29 ping thread that there is strong evidence to support "the chase" occured on that date w/ Casey driving Tony's Jeep (vs. Cindy's 4-Runner). Won't go into the details here...just FWIW.

 

[SuziQ]

No, I'm not looking for a witness, just someone credible. I've read her brother's distasteful posts on line. I don't recall him ever saying the 15th and his mother's interview would be more reliable than his online family bashing. Did I miss Cindy's mom saying her daughter choked her granddaughter in a huge fight after she went home that day? Please point it out if I missed that.

I've never said the choking incident was a given. In fact, I'll aknowledge that info about the choking came from Casey herself and Casey is a liar. IMO, the fight probably did happen, the choking possibly not. However, we have several people talking about the fight, the fact that more than one person talked about the fight lends credibility to it having have happened no matter what you think of these people. Especially since some of the people making the statement about the fight don't even know each other. And yet it's funny how they all describe a fight right before Casey left home for good.

 

[BondJamesBond]

I think June 7 is much more likely to be the night of the big fight. IIRC KC turned up at RM's with Caylee fairly late that night, way past the time when a toddler should have been in bed. She was already with TL at that point, so why go to RM's and stay the night? The most likely answer is because she had probably taken Caylee out of bed after the big fight and stormed out with her, most likely yelling something dramatic at CA about how she would never see either of them again. RM's was the only place she knew that she could go to with Caylee. I'll recheck his interviews, but I'm sure he said that they got there about 11pm.

As for June 15, TL states that his conversations with KC throughout that night were all lovey dovey sweet nothings. I think KC would have at least made some mention of 'drama' in the house that night, although it would probably have morphed into a fight between CA and GA in KC's version.

ETA. Just checked RM's interview for July 25. He states on Pg 10 that KC and Caylee turned up at 11pm on Sat June 7 and stayed overnight.

...had me thinkin' 'bout this one all day, Devon. :waitasec:

There was some follow-up on the June 7 ping thread, so I posted there. FWIW, Casey's pings support she was in the area of Ric & Amy's apt. earlier than 11AM...(so....a tease if you wanna go dig into the 6/7 Ping thread...no sign of Casey going back to pick-up Caylee from G&C's after being @ Tony's for ~6hrs that afternoon before showing up near Ric & Amys ~8:45PM ...then, per Ric's statement w i t h Caylee ~11PM (as has been posted)... :waitasec: )

 

[nyvictoria]

Thank you. I remember this one now that I read it again. No mention of a date at all. She originally says 3 months prior, May. then the detective pushes her and she says maybe a month prior to the announcement of Caylee missing. A month got lost in there some where so it sounds like she's not clear on when at all, certainly not saying the 15th. It's also interesting that Cindy never raises her voice but is violent and uncontrolled enough to be accused of choking her. Now, if Casey had come out screaming, "you ever lay a hand on me again and I'm calling the police", instead of "f you", maybe. I'm still not convince there is any solid evidence that on June 15 Cindy choked her daughter. Oh, and I highly doubt there is a family out there that hasn't had some sort of fight. Some keep it inside though, rather than for the neighbors to hear.

I also thought it was interesting the detective was encouraging her to say they were fighting all the time but all she could say was they were very nice neighbors. Not something that should be ignored.

I didn't read it that way at all. I see YM simply trying to get JC to remember the month and asking her to reevaluate the month based upon when they first appeared on the scene. First JC said May, which would have been 4 months not 3. I don't blame YM for trying to narrow down the time a little better. It's difficult for people to remember exactly when something happened without a frame of reference. YM gave a specific point in time to consider and JC reestablished her recollection of the month based on that reference point. I didn't see it as YM pushing her to say anything in particular.

YM was not encouraging JC to say they were arguing all the time. He asked if she ever heard from anything from other neighbors about arguing. She said, "No. But that’s the thing though, they were really, really good ne…George is a very good neighbor". She said she didn't really know Cindy but it's strange how she felt she had to rephrase and clarify. Especially when coupled with, "If, if, if she had a babysitter she wasn’t paying for it because everything came out of George". I'd be willing to bet Cindy wasn't too happy to read that little tidbit!

I've seen Cindy raise her voice at the vigil when she screamed for people to get off their a**es, at the deposition, to George, to reporters, protesters, etc. I'm not saying I necessarily believe Casey's story about being choked but it's not at all a stretch for me to picture Cindy with her hands around Casey's throat. Casey certainly never held back and Cindy could go for Casey's throat without saying a word.

Whatever it was and whenever it was, it was loud enough to be overheard and it's been narrowed down to early June by more than one source.

 

[SuziQ]

Thank you, thank you! I've been searching all afternoon because I knew there was something official and not just from LP with a neighbor talking about a fight. It definetly doesn't prove there was fight on June 15th but I think it does show a possibility. It shows there were loud and in my opinion nasty fights, well at least on KC's part. I have never and will never talk to my mother like that.

The date is iffy because the neighbor just can't remember but he says 3 months prior at first. The interview is on September 15. When I count 3 months prior to that date I get June 15th. but YM says so it was May. Am I doing something wrong?

There is more than one neighbor, that's the only one we've seen a statement from so far.

 

[Devon]

...had me thinkin' 'bout this one all day, Devon. :waitasec:

There was some follow-up on the June 7 ping thread, so I posted there. FWIW, Casey's pings support she was in the area of Ric & Amy's apt. earlier than 11AM...(so....a tease if you wanna go dig into the 6/7 Ping thread...no sign of Casey going back to pick-up Caylee from G&C's after being @ Tony's for ~6hrs that afternoon before showing up near Ric & Amys ~8:45PM ...then, per Ric's statement w i t h Caylee ~11PM (as has been posted)... :waitasec: )

Thanks BJB

Hmmm...... :waitasec:

I don't recall TL mentioning this prolonged visit on June 7!

I also don't get why she would take Caylee to stay at her ex-BF's place so late in the evening, instead of going home with her. :waitasec:

Very odd!

 

[ibyoungr]

wow! You made my brain jerk to that direction.The whole post. Wouldn't it be bad if---omg----if CA killed the baby in the fight---maybe did it together. She kicks KC out of the house---later hids baby in firewell of trunk---KC riddin around not knowing what that smell was.

In the mean time---she starts to party---thinkin that CA has the baby----party--party---car smellin worse---throws trash in there to make it smell better---half cleans it and sprays it. Then when she can't stand it any longer she parks it and just walks off.

Casey hates her mother. This is documented in police interviews. She would have pointed the finger at her mom instead of invisananny long ago.

No offense, but there is NOTHING in any documentation that would support this.

Casey would have been the first one to call 911 if her mother killed Caylee in front of her. Caylee's was her baby - she brought her in this world and she evidently took her out.

You state "She kicks KC out of the house---later hids baby in firewell of trunk---KC riddin around not knowing what that smell was.

In the mean time---she starts to party---thinkin that CA has the baby----party--party---car smellin worse---throws trash in there to make it smell better--"

Explain how you get from Cindy hiding it, Casey not knowing it and then Casey throwing it out in the woods if she didn't know Cindy hid it in there?

Now THAT'S a plot I can sink my teeth into!

Why can you sink your teeth into this plot? IMO, you will find much more plausible theories in the Theory thread, that use documentation to support the various theories. Most theories are fairly close in nature based upon the timeline and cell pings.

I just do no see this as a movie with "plots." JMHO

 

[MAMABEAR]

Casey hates her mother. This is documented in police interviews. She would have pointed the finger at her mom instead of invisananny long ago.

No offense, but there is NOTHING in any documentation that would support this.

Casey would have been the first one to call 911 if her mother killed Caylee in front of her. Caylee's was her baby - she brought her in this world and she evidently took her out.

You state "She kicks KC out of the house---later hids baby in firewell of trunk---KC riddin around not knowing what that smell was.

In the mean time---she starts to party---thinkin that CA has the baby----party--party---car smellin worse---throws trash in there to make it smell better--"

Explain how you get from Cindy hiding it, Casey not knowing it and then Casey throwing it out in the woods if she didn't know Cindy hid it in there?






Why can you sink your teeth into this plot? IMO, you will find much more plausible theories in the Theory thread, that use documentation to support the various theories. Most theories are fairly close in nature based upon the timeline and cell pings.

I just do no see this as a movie with "plots." JMHO

Was just a thought that went thru my head. Don't see anythang in it that would say was "fact". But if it made you feel better to put me in my place---then I have done a good deed today. :blowkiss:

 

[mitzi]

Please treat me with the same respect that I treat you. I don't think it is possible that Cindy was feeding her breakfast or lunch, dressing her or putting her down for her nap. Caylee looked and acted quite healthy and well taken care of. Everyone that has been interviewed that has observed her with her daughter said she took good care of her and used normal discipline measures with her. I make my judgments from the docs, not the media or rumor mills, nor from my own experiences because I can't know what it was like in their household regardless of the fact that I've raised 7 children. I'm sure the SA won't try to use this supposed fight on the 15th without more than is shown here or in the docs so far.

I don't think MAMABEAR was treating you with any disrespect. She was just saying that would be hard to picture KC doing those things for Caylee. No need to snap her head off...MAMA is one of the kindest, sweetest peeps on WS.

 

[ibyoungr]

Was just a thought that went thru my head. Don't see anythang in it that would say was "fact". But if it made you feel better to put me in my place---then I have done a good deed today. :blowkiss:

Wasn't trying to be snarky, Mamabear.... and not trying to "put you in your place" :blowkiss::blowkiss:... but I could see your mind starting to wander... and wanted to throw the questions to you to help you think things through and help shake the crazy thoughts out unless of course you have made that a firmed line of thinking which it doesn't sound like you have.

I like alot of your posts and you often crack me up.

When crazy thoughts go through my head I find it useful to read back through the documents and try to work it out in my head. Early on, and not so much anymore... alot of crazy thoughts that were posted became hard to break rumors or myths.

One thing, I love about this board... and it happened to me. It has made me and many other sleuthers.. better thinkers. My posting has transformed and I see it happening to others. I have been questioned on my line of thinking by other posters and it has made me go back and think things through. I kind of look at it friends helping friends be the best sleuthers they can be!!


:truce:

 

[BondJamesBond]

I think June 7 is much more likely to be the night of the big fight. IIRC KC turned up at RM's with Caylee fairly late that night, way past the time when a toddler should have been in bed. She was already with TL at that point, so why go to RM's and stay the night? The most likely answer is because she had probably taken Caylee out of bed after the big fight and stormed out with her, most likely yelling something dramatic at CA about how she would never see either of them again. RM's was the only place she knew that she could go to with Caylee. I'll recheck his interviews, but I'm sure he said that they got there about 11pm.

As for June 15, TL states that his conversations with KC throughout that night were all lovey dovey sweet nothings. I think KC would have at least made some mention of 'drama' in the house that night, although it would probably have morphed into a fight between CA and GA in KC's version.

ETA. Just checked RM's interview for July 25. He states on Pg 10 that KC and Caylee turned up at 11pm on Sat June 7 and stayed overnight.

Devon...I hafta tell you...I'm liking 6/7 more & more as a big blow-up...some things to consider...

• That morning starting @ ~3:40AM Casey received 3 calls from G&C's house phone...prolly "get your arse home" calls. Casey let'em roll to vmail and waited an hour or so before she started on her way home.
• Casey was on the phone during Caylee's naptime...typical
• There was a 37 minute period of cell inactivity @ 1:46PM (Caylee still asleep, likely). It ended w/ a 12 minute call coming in from Ryan, and Casey leaving as soon as that call ended.
• There's a 'flurry' of cell activity between Cindy, and G&C's home phone and Cindy's cell @ 2:30PM as Casey left
• IIRC, Casey had issues w/ Ricardo for having just brought Tony to Troy's B-day the night before & obviously Casey left w/ Tony
• Perhaps THIS was the night Tony insisted it wasn't appropriate to have Caylee @ his place...
• ...if it WAS, and Casey had fought w/ Cindy...going to Ricardos woulda been an out...and possibly an awkward one...although Ricardo later seemed to wanna work things out...so maybe not so much. However, Casey was clearly falling for Tony.
• IIRC, George had Saturday's off (but, perhaps we can check his timecards to see if he worked that day...Casey left @ about same time he woulda left for work on a normal day...couldn't stand to be in the house w/Cindy?

...then after ~6hours @ Tony's Casey shows up @ Ricardo's w/ Caylee (pings=6hrs, ~8:45PM, Ricardo's statement ~11PM, FWIW)

Curious that Casey was on the phone for 10mins w/ Ryan right up until the time she called back to the house as she left....did Casey wake Caylee from her nap to put her in the car and speed away? :waitasec: Was that 37 minute period a shouting match :argue: 'bout Casey's irresponsiblity the weekend that was wrapping Cindy's vacation which she'd spent caring for Caylee?

 

[ibyoungr]

bold by me
That neighbor's interview is here:

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Couty, Jean-0915.pdf

I absolutely missed this interview. Thanks so much for bring it up.

My thoughts

JC said end of May for the fight?

Cindy sounded passive in the arguments. I remember hearing the phone call from jail and the Aug 14th jail video.
"What you mean it is my fault, Casey. If you hadn't lied...." sounded passive to me.
She looked broken and passive in the jail video when Casey is screaming.

We have only seen Cindy aggressive to the outside world. Just because she wants to take a hammer to "us" doesn't mean she EVER DID to Casey.
If Cindy was a choker and much more aggressive towards Casey.. she might have nipped this in the bud much sooner. Kids turn out like Casey when the parents are easily walked over.

Casey is a liar that hated her mother for being such a rug. She told a lie to Lee or JG or whoever about Cindy choking her because it was an embellishment to help her make a point as to why she hated her mom and why she was not living at home.

 

[sua_sponte]

I absolutely missed this interview. Thanks so much for bring it up.

My thoughts

JC said end of May for the fight?

Cindy sounded passive in the arguments. I remember hearing the phone call from jail and the Aug 14th jail video.
"What you mean it is my fault, Casey. If you hadn't lied...." sounded passive to me.
She looked broken and passive in the jail video when Casey is screaming.

We have only seen Cindy aggressive to the outside world. Just because she wants to take a hammer to "us" doesn't mean she EVER DID to Casey.
If Cindy was a choker and much more aggressive towards Casey.. she might have nipped this in the bud much sooner. Kids turn out like Casey when the parents are easily walked over.

Casey is a liar that hated her mother for being such a rug. She told a lie to Lee or JG or whoever about Cindy choking her because it was an embellishment to help her make a point as to why she hated her mom and why she was not living at home.

Also in Annie's interview, when she recounted the fight when Casey was home on bail and caught Cindy using her email, didn't Annie say that Casey was screaming at the top of her lungs, and Cindy said nothing?

 

[eddeva]

Was just a thought that went thru my head. Don't see anythang in it that would say was "fact". But if it made you feel better to put me in my place---then I have done a good deed today. :blowkiss:

i get thoughts like that too mamabear. they hide in the murkiest waters of my mind ... then pop up for air when i get bored. i actually managed to create a scenario that makes casey look innocent and explains the 31 days, of course there isn't a single fact or shred of evidence to support it, but sometimes it's just fun to let your mind explore every possible angle, and i think it's quite healthy too. it exercises open mindedness, even if it is, in the end, just a fantasy.