Discuss Max's death here - Thread #1.

[CDS22]

Other than running very fast down the hallway, tripping over something and flying over the railing being a possibility, no, I don't have any theories.

When I saw his height in the AR, and the size of the railing in the photographs, and read the Hinky Meter post about his death, I don't see how he could have been tall enough to fly over the railing, even if he tripped over something.

 

[ehough22]

Re: the ball that was found- what if he was playing catch with someone or bouncing the ball off the walls/carpet or even playing ball with Ocean? What if he was near the stairs and the ball came flying towards the stairs and he jumped/did some other exaggerated "save" move to get the ball before it fell? Please note I am talking a major, leaning back or to the side over the railing, not just simply catching the ball. Is that possible given all the measurements, that he could lean over to save the ball and lean too far? He'd be moving quickly, I don't know if that would be enough momentum for the rest of the fall or not. Just thinking out loud.

 

[CDS22]

Re: the ball that was found- what if he was playing catch with someone or bouncing the ball off the walls/carpet or even playing ball with Ocean? What if he was near the stairs and the ball came flying towards the stairs and he jumped/did some other exaggerated "save" move to get the ball before it fell? Please note I am talking a major, leaning back or to the side over the railing, not just simply catching the ball. Is that possible given all the measurements, that he could lean over to save the ball and lean too far? He'd be moving quickly, I don't know if that would be enough momentum for the rest of the fall or not. Just thinking out loud.

Would the ball then be found at the bottom of the stairs near Max as opposed to wildly flying off somewhere? That's what bothers me about the balls. If he was playing with them enough to go flying over a railing, the balls wouldn't neatly be laying near him.

But your explanation about chasing after something like a ball makes as much sense as anything else for how he got over the railing. It just doesn't explain the chandelier or the momentum or the scooter.

 

[rosemary]

So you think hired staff could do a better job of watching children than someone who professes to love the child so much that she refers to him as her son?

Rebecca may have felt that Max was like a son to her, but that doesn't mean she is experienced or has enough knowledge in looking after kids. I don't know why you keep expecting her to be perfect or know the ways of motherhood. I am a mother myself, a first time mom to a 3 year old boy. I love my son more than anything in the world, but I also admit that I am not perfect, I sometimes make mistakes and I sometimes still seek guidance from my own mother who is definitely more experienced than I am. Hired staff like nannies or professional babysitters would have had far more knowledge and experience in looking after young kids than someone like Rebecca, who doesn't have any of her own. She had only been with Jonah for two years, and wasn't even married to him. Why should she have been expected to be an expert when it comes to being a parent?

 

[CDS22]

Rebecca may have felt that Max was like a son to her, but that doesn't mean she is experienced or has enough knowledge in looking after kids. I don't know why you keep expecting her to be perfect or know the ways of motherhood. I am a mother myself, a first time mom to a 3 year old boy. I love my son more than anything in the world, but I also admit that I am not perfect, I sometimes make mistakes and I sometimes still seek guidance from my own mother who is definitely more experienced than I am. Hired staff like nannies or professional babysitters would have had far more knowledge and experience in looking after young kids than someone like Rebecca, who doesn't have any of her own. She had only been with Jonah for two years, and wasn't even married to him. Why should she have been expected to be an expert when it comes to being a parent?

No one expected her to be an expert. If you notice, most of the posts here are about how MS could have fallen down or over or from the stairs and brought down a chandelier with him, more than they are about anything else. We're trying to figure out the logistics of such a fall, and discussing discrepancies in statements by various people about how Max got fatally injured. I find it strange that people are constantly bringing up RZ's death here, as well as blaming JS for MS's death. JS is a victim here and should be treated as such. It's ridiculous that people are blaming him for having stairs in his house.

 

[rosemary]

Fatal accidents do happen, but falling down the stairs and receiving whiplash at the age of 6? How common is that?

Also, what do you think JS should have done to minimize the risks of a fatal fall? Remove the stairs?

A lot more common than a woman who commits naked suicide by hanging herself on a balcony outside, with bound hands and feet and a gag on her mouth. Here's some more info on just how common falls are:

Falls remain a significant cause of morbidity and mortality. At most trauma centers, falls are the primary mechanism of injury resulting in admission for children. Factors determining the probability of serious injury in a fall are the distance of the fall, the landing surface, orientation on falling, and whether the fall was broken.

The brain, spinal cord, and extremities are the most commonly injured systems. Falls from more than 20 feet have historically been triaged to trauma centers, but even low-level falls can cause serious head injuries.2,3

Demographics of Falls in Children

Falls among children and adolescents account for more than three million emergency department visits each year, and more than 40% occur among infants, toddlers, and preschoolers.
In contrast to ground-level falls in the elderly, males and children are more susceptible to falls from heights.4 Black males under age 5 are at particularly high risk.5
Accounting for 5.9% of childhood deaths due to trauma, falls represent the third leading cause of death in children.6 Death due to falls is generally from a head injury.7
Falls in children tend to be from balconies, windows, and trees, and most frequently tend to occur in homes, followed by schoolyards and playgrounds.8
Nearly three-quarters of falls from a height in children are unintentional.

http://www.facs.org/trauma/falls.html

According to the National Safety Council reports nearly twelve thousand deaths per year with almost half of the deaths occurring in the home. Incidents related to stairs are only second to automobile crashes as the major cause of unintended injuries in the United States.[1]
“Stairs in the home can be one of the most dangerous places for anyone, in particular, for the elderly, handicapped and young children. They can create the opportunity not only for accidents, but also for potential liability. For this reason, stair safety should be a priority with any homeowner, whether you have at risk members of your home, or not.”[2]

http://www.rouleau-law.com/Stairs.html

Any situation that involves an abrupt change in speed and the neck is not protected one way or the other can result to a whiplash injury. In fact, falling off a horse, a bike or anything else, can cause a whiplash injury.


Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/law-art...and-accident-claims-728648.html#ixzz1Y9HLfdWZ
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution No Derivatives

Btw, most rich people tend to hire nannies or hired staff to ensure that their children don't get up to any mischief. And even then, accidents can still sometimes happen, just like what happened to Eric Clapton's son:

Lory's face darkens when she talks about what happened on the day of the tragedy in her friend's apartment on New York's 57th Street, where she was due to stay for a month. The pain is visible on her face and her voice drops to barely a whisper. 'The night before I put Conor to bed. He was pretending to be asleep but when I went to bed, he jumped in with me - he was so excited about the day he'd had with his Daddy. We began the next day with the same excitement. Conor was full of talk about the elephants he had seen with his Daddy at the circus the day before. Eric was coming to collect us and take us to Central Zoo. Conor was in his room still wearing his pyjamas - he wouldn't go to sleep in any others. He was playing with his nanny and I heard him talking and shouting happily. I was having a bath and getting changed ready to go to the zoo. It was 11am and I shouted to him from the bathroom to hurry up and he shouted back happily back, "In a minute,"'
'That day the apartment block janitor was in the apartment cleaning. I told the nanny and the maid not to leave Conor alone for one second. I came out of the bathroom and heard the fax ring. I stopped to check it and after discovering that it was an estimate for some repair work, I started to compare it with others. I was there for 15 minutes, during which time I heard Conor suddenly start running as he decided to play hide and seek.'
'I heard the nanny and she was running right behind him. But as Conor run into the room where the janitor was cleaning, the janitor stopped her to tell here that he had slid open the window - a huge wall of glass. In the second she stopped to listen to what he was saying, Conor ran straight through the window. I heard a dreadful scream but it wasn't Conor. It was the nanny, I ran into the room, shouting more and more hysterically, "Where's Conor, where's Conor?" Then I saw the open window and I understood at once. I felt all my strength leave me and I collapsed on the floor.'
'Eric arrived five minutes later, not realising Conor had fallen to the street below. He came into the bedroom and I screamed, "He's dead." His eyes went dark and he said, "Dead, he's dead. It's impossible." He found it hard to believe at first. Then his face turned to stone; it was like a film. We said absolutely nothing to each other. I just stopped functioning.'
'The glass was about 4ft by 6ft tall and as we were staying there temporarily, I never knew it was even possible to open it. It wasn't a window, but like a glass wall which was never, even meant to be opened. It was kept permanently locked, but the lock was broken and for some incomprehensible reason, janitor swung it open to let in some fresh air. It had a wooden ledge a foot off the ground. Our son much have thought the glass was still there when he jumped on to the low ledge a foot of the gound. At first first I wanted to kill the janitor. He had no common sense. He never even asked for forgiveness later.'
'I kept thinking of ifs... if I hadn't stopped to read the fax, I would have seen the window open and closed it. From that moment on I ceased to live. The concierge called the ambulance but obviously there was no hope. Eric went to see him at the mortuary, but I just couldn't.'

http://www.eric-clapton.co.uk/interviewsandarticles/loryinterview.htm

 

[thinkingstraight]

That story is so sad! I still tear up when hearing " tears in heaven".

 

[rosemary]

No one expected her to be an expert. If you notice, most of the posts here are about how MS could have fallen down or over or from the stairs and brought down a chandelier with him, more than they are about anything else. We're trying to figure out the logistics of such a fall, and discussing discrepancies in statements by various people about how Max got fatally injured. I find it strange that people are constantly bringing up RZ's death here, as well as blaming JS for MS's death. JS is a victim here and should be treated as such. It's ridiculous that people are blaming him for having stairs in his house.

I never blamed Jonah for Max's death, but I have seen people blame Rebecca for it. Some have said that the outcome of the LE's findings into Max's death might have been different had Rebecca not killed herself, or even suggested that she might have killed herself because she was scared she might go to jail or something. Rebecca wasn't Max's parent, nor was she hired to look after him. She was Jonah's gf, so I don't know why some people seem to think the whole responsibility of looking after Max should fall entirely on her. As a parent, I would blame myself for choosing to entrust my child's care to someone who doesn't have any experience in looking after kids. And I was replying to this comment of yours:

So you think hired staff could do a better job of watching children than someone who professes to love the child so much that she refers to him as her son?

I would be more willing to hire a professional who has experience when it comes to looking after kids than let my own sister babysit my son, I'm close to her but that I still don't trust her enough to look after him properly due to her inexperience. She doesn't have any kids of her own.

 

[Yoda]

I've been thinking over the different theories presented on this thread for how Max was injured. The ball theory is an interesting one (Max got a ball caught in the chandelier and threw another one to try to dislodge it, lost his balance, and fell over the railing). Except - the railing was too high for him to fall over. Did he climb on it? Perhaps, but he strikes me as having been too bright to try something so dangerous. But let's suppose he did. Then if he were to fall to his death, how would he be found on his back with the scooter across his leg, and why would the balls be found by him? If the balls were in the chandelier, the force of them being knocked out with Max and the chandelier would have caused them to scatter. They wouldn't be found at the bottom of the accident scene together near a scooter and downed chandelier.

IMO. The ball caught in the chandelier theory: when I look at the stairwell photos it looks as if the chandelier is closer to the landing between floors than the top of the stairs. Much closer. I would think if there was a ball caught he would try from there or on one of the stairs that put him directly in line with it. Scooter question: I tend to think, from where they were found, the scooter was downstairs,probably next to the balls, placed against the wall, to be kept out of the way while not being used. When max fell he or the chandelier hit them and caused them to move. The scooter could have easily fell onto his shin from being jarred from the fall or the turn over to check on him. None of these things explains what happened to him, bit IMO they would explain why they were found where they were.

 

[SophieRose]

I would be more willing to hire a professional who has experience when it comes to looking after kids than let my own sister babysit my son, I'm close to her but that I still don't trust her enough to look after him properly due to her inexperience. She doesn't have any kids of her own.

Lots of nannies don't have children of their own, may not have degrees, just experience. My cousin's friend (no children) got a job as a nanny for a minor celebrity, it was only her second job as a nanny. Rebecca was the second oldest, may have helped raise her younger siblings, may have nieces and nephews.

 

[CDS22]

A lot more common than a woman who commits naked suicide by hanging herself on a balcony outside, with bound hands and feet and a gag on her mouth. Here's some more info on just how common falls are:




http://www.facs.org/trauma/falls.html



http://www.rouleau-law.com/Stairs.html



Btw, most rich people tend to hire nannies or hired staff to ensure that their children don't get up to any mischief. And even then, accidents can still sometimes happen, just like what happened to Eric Clapton's son:



http://www.eric-clapton.co.uk/interviewsandarticles/loryinterview.htm

Those statistics refer to children falling from windows, not from falling from stairs or bannisters. I have already posted a link that says childhood deaths from stair falls should always be investigated as suspicious. The link had a rather extreme viewpoint, stating that deaths from stair falls were not a possiblity in children, but if the LE are talking about death from falling over a railing, I suppose that would put it in a different category.

Also, this thread is the only one about Max's death and we should keep it on topic. There are multiple threads about RZ if you wish to discuss her death.

 

[CDS22]

IMO. The ball caught in the chandelier theory: when I look at the stairwell photos it looks as if the chandelier is closer to the landing between floors than the top of the stairs. Much closer. I would think if there was a ball caught he would try from there or on one of the stairs that put him directly in line with it. Scooter question: I tend to think, from where they were found, the scooter was downstairs,probably next to the balls, placed against the wall, to be kept out of the way while not being used. When max fell he or the chandelier hit them and caused them to move. The scooter could have easily fell onto his shin from being jarred from the fall or the turn over to check on him. None of these things explains what happened to him, bit IMO they would explain why they were found where they were.

I can't see how the ball theory would give him enough momentum to go flying at the rate to suffer fatal whiplash. Also, the balls wouldn't be resting together near him if they went flying from a falling chandelier. They would be scattered.

The scooter on his shin doesn't make sense if he had a head injury from falling onto his face.

I just can't figure this one out.

 

[rosemary]

Lots of nannies don't have children of their own, may not have degrees, just experience. My cousin's friend (no children) got a job as a nanny for a minor celebrity, it was only her second job as a nanny. Rebecca was the second oldest, may have helped raise her younger siblings, may have nieces and nephews.

But that still doesn't make Rebecca more capable than someone whose main job is looking after children. There are plenty of nannies who have had years of experience and practice with kids, which is completely different to babysitting relatives from time to time. Some nannies stay with the kids 24-7, their main responsibility is just to look after the child while the parents are away or doing something else. And even then, that still doesn't prevent accidents from happening. Like I said before, they can occur even with the most attentive parents or nannies looking after the children.

 

[CDS22]

I never blamed Jonah for Max's death, but I have seen people blame Rebecca for it. Some have said that the outcome of the LE's findings into Max's death might have been different had Rebecca not killed herself, or even suggested that she might have killed herself because she was scared she might go to jail or something. Rebecca wasn't Max's parent, nor was she hired to look after him. She was Jonah's gf, so I don't know why some people seem to think the whole responsibility of looking after Max should fall entirely on her. As a parent, I would blame myself for choosing to entrust my child's care to someone who doesn't have any experience in looking after kids. And I was replying to this comment of yours:



I would be more willing to hire a professional who has experience when it comes to looking after kids than let my own sister babysit my son, I'm close to her but that I still don't trust her enough to look after him properly due to her inexperience. She doesn't have any kids of her own.

The outcome might be different if RZ was still alive because the police could question her further. There might be information she didn't give them for whatever reasons. One reason might be because she was too distraught at the time to be a thorough witness. It happens.

 

[rosemary]

Those statistics refer to children falling from windows, not from falling from stairs or bannisters. I have already posted a link that says childhood deaths from stair falls should always be investigated as suspicious. The link had a rather extreme viewpoint, stating that deaths from stair falls were not a possiblity in children, but if the LE are talking about death from falling over a railing, I suppose that would put it in a different category.

Also, this thread is the only one about Max's death and we should keep it on topic. There are multiple threads about RZ if you wish to discuss her death.

And the LE already investigated Max's death twice, and both results still came up with accident. Even if children tend to fall more from windows, it's still not impossible for them to fall from trees, balconies, stairs, etc. That's why general falls are one of the main causes of accidents in the US. They just don't happen to children, even older people are not immune from falling too.

 

[rosemary]

edit. sorry, double post.

 

[rosemary]

I can't see how the ball theory would give him enough momentum to go flying at the rate to suffer fatal whiplash. Also, the balls wouldn't be resting together near him if they went flying from a falling chandelier. They would be scattered.

The scooter on his shin doesn't make sense if he had a head injury from falling onto his face.

I just can't figure this one out.

If Max had been running or was on his scooter, it might have been possible for him to have tripped and fallen from the rails. He might have even tripped on the dog.The chandelier is quite close enough for him to have hit it when he fell from the stairs:

 

[katydid23]

Rebecca may have felt that Max was like a son to her, but that doesn't mean she is experienced or has enough knowledge in looking after kids. I don't know why you keep expecting her to be perfect or know the ways of motherhood. I am a mother myself, a first time mom to a 3 year old boy. I love my son more than anything in the world, but I also admit that I am not perfect, I sometimes make mistakes and I sometimes still seek guidance from my own mother who is definitely more experienced than I am. Hired staff like nannies or professional babysitters would have had far more knowledge and experience in looking after young kids than someone like Rebecca, who doesn't have any of her own. She had only been with Jonah for two years, and wasn't even married to him. Why should she have been expected to be an expert when it comes to being a parent?

I do not expect that she was an 'expert.' But I would expect that she kept an eye on a young boy and listened for danger. Being in the bathroom for 20 minutes,while also hearing him 'playing' in the upstairs hallway just requires common sense, not expertise, that one would stick your head out of the door and ask him to stop running or scooting or playing soccer upstairs. It is just common sense,imo. Her family's attorney claims it was a planking accident. It does not require an expert to prevent a 6 yr old from planking on a second floor stairway.

 

[CDS22]

And the LE already investigated Max's death twice, and both results still came up with accident. Even if children tend to fall more from windows, it's still not impossible for them to fall from trees, balconies, stairs, etc. That's why general falls are one of the main causes of accidents in the US. They just don't happen to children, even older people are not immune from falling too.

Older children are less likely to die from falls. I posted the link to that a few pages ago. In fact, the article stated it was an impossibility, but again, that's just one article.

The point is that not everyone agrees with the LE's findings, or at least the diagram of how Max fell. For one thing, they have his height proportion wrong to the size of the railings. The article with information about that is linked here, too. Also, Max's death wasn't investigated til RZ's death. The scene of the accident was cleaned up days before anyone even decided to look into the child's demise so they only had so much to go by.

 

[rosemary]

Older children are less likely to die from falls. I posted the link to that a few pages ago. In fact, the article stated it was an impossibility, but again, that's just one article.

The point is that not everyone agrees with the LE's findings, or at least the diagram of how Max fell. For one thing, they have his height proportion wrong to the size of the railings. The article with information about that is linked here, too. Also, Max's death wasn't investigated til RZ's death. The scene of the accident was cleaned up days before anyone even decided to look into the child's demise so they only had so much to go by.

How do you know for sure that the LE hadn't investigated or at least inquired about what happened to Max? Plus, if the LE had already declared Max's fall to be an accident without even bothering to investigate it, why would Rebecca have killed herself then? And if she truly was responsible for what had happened and killed herself because of her guilty conscience, why didn't she write an apology or confession admitting that she was the one who had caused Max to fall from the stairs? I know that this is thread is about Max, but it's hard not to talk about Rebecca as well since the two deaths are linked together.

Even if the scene of the accident had been cleaned days before anyone had decided to look into Max's demise, that still doesn't mean that the LE wouldn't have been able to glean information as to what exactly had happened when he fell.They could have interviewed Rebecca's sister, and if her statement had contradicted Rebecca's, they would have or should have taken note of that and investigated it further. And I believe the LE have also examined the area from where Max had fallen from, there were a few photos back in one of the older threads which showed the police using a blue light to examine the walls and the staircase of the house. Plus, they would still have known what the original scene of the accident had looked like based on the initial police report on Max's fall. The ME was the one who had determined that Max's injuries and subsequent death were consistent with those of an accidental fall, this is the same ME who had also declared that Rebecca's injuries and death were consistent with a suicidal hanging rather than a homicidal one.