Discuss Max's death here - Thread #1.

[CDS22]

If one of the most expensive chandeliers in the world could be brought down by a single throw of a shoe, do you honestly think a 45 lb. boy wouldn't be able to after colliding hard on it?

First of all, other reports about the Kuwait chandelier say that it was damaged, not knocked down. Here's a link with the picture:

http://www.bananaq8.com/news/most-expensive-chandelier-in-kuwait-broken-with-a-shoes/

Second of all, large chandeliers that are up that high (much, much higher than chandeliers in homes) have trigger switches to bring the chandeliers down for cleaning. IF the Kuwaiti chandelier was brought down (which most reports say it wasn't brought down or even destroyed, but only damaged), the trigger switch possibly could have been hit.

All that said, a home chandelier most likely could not be brought down by a 45 lb. kid. There are certain regulations about how home chandeliers are hung in order for them to be safe.

IMO

 

[CDS22]

What also interests me is Max and the tranquilizer. Here's how the false positive was explained:

"In a forensic laboratory it is standard practice to do two independent tests. One is a presumptive test and the second is a confirmatory test," said Dr. Jain, the director of National Toxicology Laboratories in Buena Park, CA.

Jain said there are a couple reasons why the second HPLD/DAD test would come back with a different result of "Not Detected."

"Number one is that the presumptive test was totally negative; there was no benzodiazepine drug present. It could be totally, 100% false positive," Dr. Jain said. "And secondly, there may be a minuscule amount of benzodiazepine" in the blood that was not detected in the second test.

Either way, Jain said drugs likely played no role the in the death of Max Shacknai. "At least the drugs that were tested," Dr. Jain clarified.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15398193/...-likely-a-false-positive?clienttype=printable

So we know MS may have had a miniscule amount of a tranquilizer in his system, such a small amount that it wouldn't even have shown up on a second test, nor would it be responsible for his fall. But it does make me wonder if someone had previously sedated the boy. It's just one of those things that make you go hmmmm.

IMO

 

[SunnieRN]

It's not enough to investigate only where the body was found, but the point from where the person allegedly fell. That's why so many are questioning the report, because we can't understand how MS got the momentum to do everything he was alleged to have done.

RZ was supposed to have been training for a marathon or something, according to her sister, and her gym instructor or trainer called her athletic. She used the stair master and worked out a lot. She was hardly a weakling, so could she have picked up a small child? Sure. However, we've had no proof offered that she did so, nor has anyone else suggested it.

Like I've said, I don't think a 45 lb. boy could bring a chandelier down even if he was swinging from it. I also don't think a child could do the gymnastics necessary to get all the injuries he had.

IMO

Wow, this thread is moving fast!!

I remember that after Rebecca died, there were LE officers in the mansion all night. They were on the stair case and balcony, with those flashlights with the little blue lights. They didn't find anything. That sounds like a pretty thorough search for an area of struggle, in my mind anyway?

Even if she could have picked up a 45 pound child (almost 1/2 her weight by the way), I think it would have been a bit hard to pick him up as high as she would have had to, in order for him to be propelled over the railing. I don't say it as much for the weight factor, as I do because of the 6 year old boy, fighting, kicking, screaming, hitting, ball of fury he would have been.

So, even though I am not saying you accused her of it, I think it would have been too difficult to accomplish. Now I could easily see a man being able to propel a 45 pound child that way.

 

[SunnieRN]

What also interests me is Max and the tranquilizer. Here's how the false positive was explained:


http://www.cbs8.com/story/15398193/...-likely-a-false-positive?clienttype=printable

So we know MS may have had a miniscule amount of a tranquilizer in his system, such a small amount that it wouldn't even have shown up on a second test, nor would it be responsible for his fall. But it does make me wonder if someone had previously sedated the boy. It's just one of those things that make you go hmmmm.

IMO

That makes me want to know if he had a medical problem that hasn't been disclosed, it makes me want to know when he arrived at the mansion, and the amount, as you could potentially have an idea when it was injusted by the 1/2 life. But it would only be an estimate as you don't know IF he took anything, or how much.

 

[CDS22]

If Max had been running or was on his scooter, it might have been possible for him to have tripped and fallen from the rails. He might have even tripped on the dog.The chandelier is quite close enough for him to have hit it when he fell from the stairs:

I'm glad you posted that picture. In studying it, I can't imagine how MS could have fallen with enough momentum to fall towards the chandelier (not to mention his arms wouldn't be long enough to grab it). There isn't enough room for him to fall across and have the kind of momentum he did, not to mention that he was too short to topple over it.

If he had momentum from a scooter (which I don't believe he did because of the carpeting and the fact that the scooter was found downstairs across his leg), he would have fallen towards the wall, not upwards and onto the chandelier.

Curiouser and curiouser.

IMO

 

[rosemary]

If she was in the bathroom that she says she was, and if MS was where the LE think he was when he fell, she should have been able to hear something before the big crash. For example, if he fell from the railing onto the bannister, that sound alone would reverberate throughout the house.

Another thing that is odd is RZ said she called for XZ to come to help her and call 911 while RZ gave MS CPR. However, she also says XZ was in the shower. So if XZ couldn't hear a 4 year old swinging from a chandelier and crashing from railing to bannister to wall to floor, how could she hear RZ call her name? Just doesn't add up.

But did Max actually fall into the bannister? Judging by the LE's reenactment and the position of the chandelier in the photos, Max would not have crashed unto it if he had hit the bannister when he fell from the railings. What kind of sound should she have heard before the big crash? Like I said, the sound of running footsteps or scooting would have been hard to hear in a three storey mansion. The carpeting alone would have served to mute or minimize any sounds of activity on the top floor.

That information you provided isn't that specific either. It could also have meant that Rebecca had already seen her sister looking down or running down the stairs to check up on what happened after hearing the loud crash, and called for her to dial 911. It doesn't say anything about Rebecca's sister still being in the shower after Max had fallen and only went outside after hearing Rebecca call her name.

 

[SunnieRN]

Just to give you an idea of a case involving a fall that was ruled murder:

http://www.peterson-staircase.com/coincidence.html

Now I'm not saying MS's fall was murder. I'm of the opinion that no one set out to kill MS that day. However, I am also of the opinion that the fall wasn't MS's fault and that we were not told the full story of what happened by RZ and/or XZ.

IMO

There is a thread here that discusses this case and has a link to a long and well written article. That was proven not to be a fall, but a bludgeoning murder.

 

[SunnieRN]

I'm glad you posted that picture. In studying it, I can't imagine how MS could have fallen with enough momentum to fall towards the chandelier (not to mention his arms wouldn't be long enough to grab it). There isn't enough room for him to fall across and have the kind of momentum he did, not to mention that he was too short to topple over it.

If he had momentum from a scooter (which I don't believe he did because of the carpeting and the fact that the scooter was found downstairs across his leg), he would have fallen towards the wall, not upwards and onto the chandelier.

Curiouser and curiouser.

IMO

Do you see the railing going up further, on the left of the picture? He was on the third (2 1/2) story when he fell. Not on the first landing.

 

[CDS22]

But did Max actually fall into the bannister? Judging by the LE's reenactment and the position of the chandelier in the photos, Max would not have crashed unto it if he had hit the bannister when he fell from the railings. What kind of sound should she have heard before the big crash? Like I said, the sound of running footsteps or scooting would have been hard to hear in a three storey mansion. The carpeting alone would have served to mute or minimize any sounds of activity on the top floor.

That information you provided isn't that specific either. It could also have meant that Rebecca had already seen her sister looking down or running down the stairs to check up on what happened after hearing the loud crash, and called for her to dial 911. It doesn't say anything about Rebecca's sister still being in the shower after Max had fallen and only went outside after hearing Rebecca call her name.

They have him depicted as going from the bannister to the chandelier, then off to the side the landing, possibly crashing into the wall with the chandelier going down straight.

If RZ was in the downstairs bathroom as she alleges, she should have been able to hear scooter wheels going, or footsteps running, or some sort of evidence of what MS was doing if he had enough momentum to be fatally wounded with whiplash. My husband and I were discussing this. Little feet make a great deal of noise when they're upstairs. We can even hear our kids running when we're in the shower or in another part of the house. How in the world couldn't she hear anything but a single crash? Just a body coming into contact with a chandelier would have made one giant noise, let alone the noise from MS allegedly going over the railing (2 noises), to him hitting the wall (3 noises), to him landing on the floor (4 noises) to the crash of the chandelier (5 noises). Yet we're expected to believe she heard one final noise only. Not plausible.

IMO

 

[SunnieRN]

They have him depicted as going from the bannister to the chandelier, then off to the side the landing, possibly crashing into the wall with the chandelier going down straight.

If RZ was in the downstairs bathroom as she alleges, she should have been able to hear scooter wheels going, or footsteps running, or some sort of evidence of what MS was doing if he had enough momentum to be fatally wounded with whiplash. My husband and I were discussing this. Little feet make a great deal of noise when they're upstairs. We can even hear our kids running when we're in the shower or in another part of the house. How in the world couldn't she hear anything but a single crash? Just a body coming into contact with a chandelier would have made one giant noise, let alone the noise from MS allegedly going over the railing (2 noises), to him hitting the wall (3 noises), to him landing on the floor (4 noises) to the crash of the chandelier (5 noises). Yet we're expected to believe she heard one final noise only. Not plausible.

IMO

Shock does strange things to people. I can guarantee if I heard a chandelier fall, I would go immediately into panic mode. We are talking seconds only, for this sequence of events to occur.

If she was in the bathroo,. I am sure the door was shut. The carpet is thick and when I had a two story house, we had thick carpet, a remnant of an older lady who had lived there before us. It was a high grade, great condition carpet. I hated the color, but lived with it, as my daughter and niece were young and I liked the idea of the thick carpet, in case they fell.

I could not hear them on the stairs unless they were goofing off, giggling, screaming, throwing things, etc. They could easily go up and down stairs in stealth mode. I also did not hear them in the hallway, which was carpeted. When they were in their bedrooms, with wood floors, I HEARD EVERY SOUND! My bedroom was under theirs! Not fun, since I worked nights.:banghead:

So, point to all this, if Max was trying to be quiet, I am sure he could have been.

 

[rosemary]

First of all, other reports about the Kuwait chandelier say that it was damaged, not knocked down. Here's a link with the picture:

http://www.bananaq8.com/news/most-expensive-chandelier-in-kuwait-broken-with-a-shoes/

There is no picture of the chandelier being merely damaged, most official reports have stated that the chandelier had come falling down and crashed to the ground after being hit by the shoe. The shoe thrower was reported to have also said that he didn't it was possible to knock down a chandelier by a shoe. here's a Kuwait news link that states that the chandelier was destroyed and had crashed down to the floor:

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=ODk4Mzc2NTU2

Second of all, large chandeliers that are up that high (much, much higher than chandeliers in homes) have trigger switches to bring the chandeliers down for cleaning. IF the Kuwaiti chandelier was brought down (which most reports say it wasn't brought down or even destroyed, but only damaged), the trigger switch possibly could have been hit.

If it was entirely due to a trigger switch reacting to a hit by a shoe, it would not have detached and come crashing down to the floor.

All that said, a home chandelier most likely could not be brought down by a 45 lb. kid. There are certain regulations about how home chandeliers are hung in order for them to be safe.

Most anything can be brought down if enough force was applied on it. The chandelier in the Colorado mansion was even more delicate and flimsy looking compared to the chandelier that fell in the Kuwait mall. It is not hard to imagine that a person, even a boy that weighed 45 lb. can bring down a chandelier by crashing into it. Glass can easily break, and no matter how safe the regulations are, chandeliers aren't designed to withstand sudden crashes.

 

[CDS22]

There is no picture of the chandelier being merely damaged

Yes there is. It's in the link that I posted. The photo was taken by a Kuwaiti who witnessed the incident in the mall.

If it was entirely due to a trigger switch reacting to a hit by a shoe, it would not have detached and come crashing down to the floor.

Do you know what a trigger switch is? It's a switch that literally brings the chandelier down for cleaning. If a switch is hit violently enough or jarred, it can bring the chandelier crashing down.

Most anything can be brought down if enough force was applied on it. The chandelier in the Colorado mansion was even more delicate and flimsy looking compared to the chandelier that fell in the Kuwait mall. It is not hard to imagine that a person, even a boy that weighed 45 lb. can bring down a chandelier by crashing into it. Glass can easily break, and no matter how safe the regulations are, chandeliers aren't designed to withstand sudden crashes.

It's not the question of glass breaking on a chandelier. It's a question of a chandelier being dispensed from the top, meaning the entire thing, including the harness, coming down to the ground. The AR states that the chandelier came down, not that mere pieces of it were broken. A 45 lb. boy can't remove a chandelier from the ceiling and bring it onto the ground no matter what he was doing. And for him to have the amount of momentum he needed to sustain the kidn of fatal whiplash the AR says he died from, he'd have to do a lot more than swing from a chandelier and come dropping down. Remember, besides the fatal whiplash, he has wounds on his back. Trunk wounds are not consistent with falls, according to the article I linked earlier in this thread.

IMO

 

[SunnieRN]

We also don't know if that was there from when the house was originally built, or if it had been re-hung at a later date. Was there unseen wear and tear, or damage from previous earthquakes? That's why I wanted to see the angle looking up to the ceiling, to see how big a hole it left.

 

[CDS22]

And here's a link to the depiction the police offered. They show the entire chandelier coming down:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/RZ/maxfallmark.jpg

 

[CDS22]

Max had wounds on his back. Are those wounds from being pushed? The depiction shows him hitting his back on a bannister, but if his fall was broken by a hit on the bannister, it would lose the necessary momentum to create the fatal whiplash he died from.

 

[rosemary]

We do know that XZ was injured enough for RZ to call her sister the nurse and ask what to do about the injuries. We also know that RZ told the dog guy that XZ was injured as MS was in the fall. I'm not disputing that the injuries could have been caused by cleaning up broken glass, but it sure would have been nice to know for sure, particularly since XZ was whisked off to another state before she could be questioned further.

I also wonder if RZ's head bumps could have been caused prior to her hanging, meaning on the Monday that MS fell.

Since the Zahau family's lawyer has thrown out planking as the cause of MS's injuries, without RZ or XZ mentioning planking to the police, it makes me wonder if XZ admitted to planking. I could see a teenager or adult perhaps bringing down a chandelier and falling on a small boy who was on the floor playing. Falls are odd things. Sometimes if someone has a landing (like another person) they can get out of it nearly unscathed. There was a case not too long ago of someone jumping out the window in an apparent suicide. They landed on the person below. The person who was landed on died from injuries. The suicidal person remained unscathed. Just a thought.

IMO

The Zahau family lawyer may have gotten her information wrong, it's possible she could have mixed up some of her facts or deliberately lied to cause controversy. It's not like this lawyer has had an upstanding reputation prior to being hired by the Zahau family. And the Zahau family may have only hired her because they had no money to be able to pay for a good lawyer. Unless it came from Rebecca herself or the Zahau family, I don't see why this planking incident should continue to be brought up as as proof that Rebecca iwas guilty of covering up a crime.

If the LE had done a thorough job, then they would have interviewed Rebecca's sister as well. The Zahaus want the case to be reopened again, so I'm sure if they had something to hide, they would be aware of the risks involved in wanting the matter to be investigated again.

Btw, if Rebecca's bumps on the head had happened on the day of Max's accident, how do you think she would have gotten them? If she had jumped down on Max and fallen on her head, the outcome would have been a lot worse for her.

 

[CDS22]

The Zahau family lawyer may have gotten her information wrong, it's possible she could have mixed up some of her facts or deliberately lied to cause controversy. It's not like this lawyer has had an upstanding reputation prior to being hired by the Zahau family. And the Zahau family may have only hired her because they had no money to be able to pay for a good lawyer. Unless it came from Rebecca herself or the Zahau family, I don't see why this planking incident should continue to be brought up as as proof that Rebecca iwas guilty of covering up a crime.

If the LE had done a thorough job, then they would have interviewed Rebecca's sister as well. The Zahaus want the case to be reopened again, so I'm sure if they had something to hide, they would be aware of the risks involved in wanting the matter to be investigated again.

Btw, if Rebecca's bumps on the head had happened on the day of Max's accident, how do you think she would have gotten them? If she had jumped down on Max and fallen on her head, the outcome would have been a lot worse for her.

First of all, for a lawyer to get her facts wrong is a pretty damning thing. Second of all, the family has hired Cyril Wecht. I don't think he comes cheap. Thirdly, it's been the Zahau family and their lawyer, the ones who call themselves "Rebecca's voice", who bring up the planking, so it needs to be addressed. Fourthly, since XZ is the only one who was in the mansion the day of MS's fatal whiplash injury who is still alive, she really needs to be questioned more. Lastly, Anne Bremner refers to herself as "famous":

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/09/lawy...-represent-seattle-police-you-cant-arrest-me/

So is she really some fly-by-night?

Regarding RZ's head bumps being possibly linked to MS's injuries, I don't have an answer. It's just something I've been thinking about, since we know that on the same day MS was fatally injured, XZ got some injuries that needed treatment.

IMO

 

[SunnieRN]

First of all, for a lawyer to get her facts wrong is a pretty damning thing. Second of all, the family has hired Cyril Wecht. I don't think he comes cheap. Thirdly, it's been the Zahau family and their lawyer, the ones who call themselves "Rebecca's voice", who bring up the planking, so it needs to be addressed. Fourthly, since XZ is the only one who was in the mansion the day of MS's fatal whiplash injury who is still alive, she really needs to be questioned more. Lastly, Anne Bremner refers to herself as "famous":

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/09/lawy...-represent-seattle-police-you-cant-arrest-me/

So is she really some fly-by-night?

Regarding RZ's head bumps being possibly linked to MS's injuries, I don't have an answer. It's just something I've been thinking about, since we know that on the same day MS was fatally injured, XZ got some injuries that needed treatment.

IMO

I'm thinking that as unfortunate as it is, a lot of lawyers get their facts wrong and I believe it is often on purpose, think Baez and Darden, just to name a couple.

We don't know yet what XZ told Bremner. We also do not have a recording or a transcript as to the questions asked of XZ concerning the event, just as we don't know if/what anyone was asked concerning Rebecca's death.

I highly doubt that Rebecca received her injuries on the same day as Max, as they were severe enough that it was possible for them to cause a loss of consciousness, which we knw did not occur.

 

[rosemary]

Yes there is. It's in the link that I posted. The photo was taken by a Kuwaiti who witnessed the incident in the mall.

All I see is a picture of a Croc shoe and some red things hanging down. Where exactly is the broken chandelier still hanging at the top?

Btw, are you saying that the news reports got it wrong even though most official sites have stated that the chandelier had come crashing down rather than merely being damaged?

Do you know what a trigger switch is? It's a switch that literally brings the chandelier down for cleaning. If a switch is hit violently enough or jarred, it can bring the chandelier crashing down.

A shoe was able to violently hit a chandelier at a high enough distance to make it come crashing down. Even if it had been caused by a trigger switch, it only gets to show how sensitive chandeliers can be.

It's not the question of glass breaking on a chandelier. It's a question of a chandelier being dispensed from the top, meaning the entire thing, including the harness, coming down to the ground. The AR states that the chandelier came down, not that mere pieces of it were broken. A 45 lb. boy can't remove a chandelier from the ceiling and bring it onto the ground no matter what he was doing. And for him to have the amount of momentum he needed to sustain the kidn of fatal whiplash the AR says he died from, he'd have to do a lot more than swing from a chandelier and come dropping down. Remember, besides the fatal whiplash, he has wounds on his back. Trunk wounds are not consistent with falls, according to the article I linked earlier in this thread.

IMO

Is it entirely impossible for an entire chandelier to come crashing down if something hard collided with it? Is there any other way that the chandelier could have come crashing down besides Max falling on it?

No one could save Max, once he fell. The fatal damage was done before anyone even found him. You see, Max suffered a tragic, somewhat rare injury that was not fixable. Somewhere, during his fall, he sustained a neck hyperextension injury that essentially “unplugged” his spinal cord from his brainstem. The injury didn’t sever the cord– or cardiac arrest would have been irreversible. But the hyperextension injury stretched Max’s spinal cord in such an extreme manner, that he essentially almost unplugged his spinal cord from his brainstem. This produced the cardiac arrest at the scene. There is no amount or quality of CPR or advanced care that can overcome a shredded spinal cord at the junction of the brainstem. The fall set in motion the series of events that lead to his death 4 days later. The autopsy report confirms this. And for those who are conspiracy theorists…no assassin is that lucky; no way. It was an accident.

Why?

Because Max had absolutely NO cervical spine damage to his vertebrae. None. His neck bones were undamaged. His pivot joint, the C 1-2 atlanto-occipital joint, is intact. His skull fracture from the fall did not produce severe brain damage. No Hangman’s Fracture, no pedicle fractures, no chips, no dings, or scuffs– nothing. What Max suffered is the shredding of the top 1-2 cm of his spinal cord…a mere 3/4″. He overstretched his spinal cord and essentially unplugged it from his brainstem, to use a colloquial description. And there is no neurosurgeon on the planet that can fix that kind of damage.

But he didn’t actually “die” from that injury. He died as a result of being resuscitated.

I’m not going to go into a big discussion of the skull fracture Max sustained in his fall, or the superficial scrapes and cuts from the chandelier and the fall. It doesn’t matter. It didn’t kill him. The brain evidence in the autopsy demonstrates that other, much more serious damage, produced the chain of events that lead to Max’s death. What killed Max was a severe hyperextension of his neck that yanked his spinal cord nearly out of his brainstem. Neurosurgeons can’t fix that.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/10/rebecca-zahau-case-max-shacknai-autopsy-review/

The autopsy report and the hinkymeter review of the autopsy both state that Max's injuries and subsequent death was due to a fall. Now if you can tell me how it would have been possible for a petite woman with a slight limp to have had enough strength to entirely lift up and throw a 6 year old boy from the railings with enough force that he suffered from a terrible irreversible injury, then I would be more willing to accept the possibility that Rebecca may have been directly responsible for Max's fall. Max from all accounts was also an active healthy boy so he would not have gone down with a fight if he knew Rebecca was intent in killing him. Is there any evidence of a struggle between them?

 

[rosemary]

Max had wounds on his back. Are those wounds from being pushed? The depiction shows him hitting his back on a bannister, but if his fall was broken by a hit on the bannister, it would lose the necessary momentum to create the fatal whiplash he died from.

Based on the pics of the chandelier and stairs, how exactly would Max have been able to hit the bannister if he had also collided with the chandelier? And if Max hadn't collided with the chandelier hard enough for it to fall, how exactly could it have fallen then?

What kind of wounds were they exactly that would be consistent with being pushed? The fall into the chandelier could also have caused the fatal injury that he died from as well. Either way, I'm really curious as to what the evidence is to support the theory that Rebecca may have killed Max by pushing or throwing him down from railings.