Discuss Max's death here - Thread #1.

[CDS22]

well if tests are done after death and the system is not processing anything, I am wondering if toxicology levels change significantly with time as they do in the living.

I'm sorry, I have no idea.

 

[CocoChanel]

Max had wounds on his back. Are those wounds from being pushed? The depiction shows him hitting his back on a bannister, but if his fall was broken by a hit on the bannister, it would lose the necessary momentum to create the fatal whiplash he died from.

BBM
With all due respect, this reads as a statement of fact, and I don't see how it COULD be a verified fact in this case. I would guess that you mean this as your OPINION but don't specifically say that. The way it is written it reads as though it is a given fact, yet I don't think that is true since there is nothing I've seen to support it as fact. Perhaps I have missed a link or a verification that you are WS-approved as a professional poster knowledgeable in this area? Please know I am only trying to understand Max's tragic death, and the basis of what is posted here. I apologize if I have missed the elements I mentioned that would lend credence to such a statement.

 

[Rhyme & Reason]

I'm glad you posted that picture. In studying it, I can't imagine how MS could have fallen with enough momentum to fall towards the chandelier (not to mention his arms wouldn't be long enough to grab it). There isn't enough room for him to fall across and have the kind of momentum he did, not to mention that he was too short to topple over it.

If he had momentum from a scooter (which I don't believe he did because of the carpeting and the fact that the scooter was found downstairs across his leg), he would have fallen towards the wall, not upwards and onto the chandelier.

Curiouser and curiouser.

IMO

But he didn't fall from the railing shown in this picture, he fell from the railing higher up on the 2nd floor.

 

[CDS22]

But he didn't fall from the railing shown in this picture, he fell from the railing higher up on the 2nd floor.

Yes, but if he made the hits and bumps on the way down as depicted in the illustrations the police provided, he wouldn't have the velocity to have the injuries he did, IMO. If you look at the link on the Hinky Meter posted earlier in this thread, it will have some info and equations about velocity.

 

[CDS22]

BBM
With all due respect, this reads as a statement of fact, and I don't see how it COULD be a verified fact in this case. I would guess that you mean this as your OPINION but don't specifically say that. The way it is written it reads as though it is a given fact, yet I don't think that is true since there is nothing I've seen to support it as fact. Perhaps I have missed a link or a verification that you are WS-approved as a professional poster knowledgeable in this area? Please know I am only trying to understand Max's tragic death, and the basis of what is posted here. I apologize if I have missed the elements I mentioned that would lend credence to such a statement.

Sorry, I'm referring to a link posted earlier in the thread with the necessary equations:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

 

[SunnieRN]

I presume they tested the same sample they have taken upon his arrival to the hospital.

Jenny, they would normally draw a new sample. Where I work, if the child was not on prescription, or over the counter medications that would make the test 'positive', it would be re run on the same sample as well as redrawing of the patient.

JBean, even if a person dies, some of the medication will still leave the body. There are exceptions of course, but that is why timely lab work is so crucial. Some drugs have a very quick 1/2 life, like benzodiazepines, so they leave the system fast. Others, like pot, get stored in the fat in the body and releases as you burn fat. So, whether or not it would be detected long term, is dependent upon the amount and type of drug.

 

[curiousjo]

-Many people have a benign heart murmur - so not significant.
-Benzodiazepine drug test was FALSE positive - so not significant.
(The paramedics most likely gave him Versed when he was intubated, and this caused the false result)
-How could a petite woman have the strength/momentum to propel 50 pound boy all the way across the staircase? Wouldn't he have just gone straight down with gravity?

Lets not make up evidence! IF we have a positive tox screen and want to verify if true- then test reordered that day. At this point, we know the first tox screen was positive, then confirmed negative - so false positive. (OR, you look to see what the paramedics/doctors ordered and voila - benzo ordered and obvious reason for false positive. )Then, the autopsy performed several days later also returned negative for Benzo's detection. A final confirmation of negative drug in system. IF present, the drug would have still been detectable. End of story.

RNs sister said she did not feel guilty, as this was an accidnent. IF she did commit suicide - why would she write, "She(RN) saved him(MS)"... why not I am sorry for what happened? Doesn't fit.

 

[stilettos]

-Many people have a benign heart murmur - so not significant.
-Benzodiazepine drug test was FALSE positive - so not significant.
(They may have given him Versed when he was intubated, and this caused the false result)
-How could a petite woman have the strength/momentum to propel 50 pound boy all the way across the staircase? Wouldn't he have just gone straight down with gravity?

Lets not make up evidence!

RNs sister said she did not feel guilty, as this was an accidnent. IF she did commit suicide - why would she write, "She(RN) saved him(MS)"... why not I am sorry for what happened? Doesn't fit.

In my mind the pronoun usage leads me to think it is someone other than RN writing the message. Not sure what in the he77 LE is thinking.:waitasec:

 

[CDS22]

It's not too late for the authorities to do some more investigation into this case. I wish they would re-open it, starting with questioning XZ further.

 

[JBean]

Jenny, they would normally draw a new sample. Where I work, if the child was not on prescription, or over the counter medications that would make the test 'positive', it would be re run on the same sample as well as redrawing of the patient.

JBean, even if a person dies, some of the medication will still leave the body. There are exceptions of course, but that is why timely lab work is so crucial. Some drugs have a very quick 1/2 life, like benzodiazepines, so they leave the system fast. Others, like pot, get stored in the fat in the body and releases as you burn fat. So, whether or not it would be detected long term, is dependent upon the amount and type of drug.

How does the medication leave the body after death? I thought meds typically leave the body through breath,liver,kidney and urine.Don't want to get too far OT but just wondering how drugs can leave the system if someone is dead and body is no longer functioning. Thanks Sunnie.

 

[SunnieRN]

We specifically know the tranquilizer was not prescribed to him because if it was, it would have said such-and-such amount of drug was found in his system and prescribed for such-and-such and was taken last at such-and-such time. They also wouldn't have been surprised it was in his body.

I am not confident in the ME report in many areas for either Max or Rebecca, so I am not certain that it would say prescribed for such and such etc.

How does the medication leave the body after death? I thought meds typically leave the body through breath,liver,kidney and urine.Don't want to get too far OT but just wondering how drugs can leave the system if someone is dead and body is no longer functioning. Thanks Sunnie.

Sorry, poor wording. You are correct, that drugs leave the human system in those ways. In my mind I was thinking about the 1/2 life and efficacy of a drug. For example, pain medication, dilaudid. It can be given IV, by mouth as a tablet, or sub-cutaneousy as a shot with a small needle. The 1/2 life of dilaudid, iv or sq, is the same. It is the same drug, same form, same vial. It looses its effectiveness in the same amount of time, whether a patient is alive or dead. It will still be present in the body, in blood or tissue, but will be ineffective. As a tablet, the onset is longer, but the effects are usually longer acting also. Sorry, as my mind knew what I meant, but I certainly did not explain that well.:crazy:

 

[SunnieRN]

-Many people have a benign heart murmur - so not significant.
-Benzodiazepine drug test was FALSE positive - so not significant.
(The paramedics most likely gave him Versed when he was intubated, and this caused the false result)
-How could a petite woman have the strength/momentum to propel 50 pound boy all the way across the staircase? Wouldn't he have just gone straight down with gravity?

Lets not make up evidence! IF we have a positive tox screen and want to verify if true- then test reordered that day. At this point, we know the first tox screen was positive, then confirmed negative - so false positive. (OR, you look to see what the paramedics/doctors ordered and voila - benzo ordered and obvious reason for false positive. )Then, the autopsy performed several days later also returned negative for Benzo's detection. A final confirmation of negative drug in system. IF present, the drug would have still been detectable. End of story.

RNs sister said she did not feel guilty, as this was an accidnent. IF she did commit suicide - why would she write, "She(RN) saved him(MS)"... why not I am sorry for what happened? Doesn't fit.

Excellent post and point well taken. I just have one thing I would like to add. Our ems guys are top notch. Most of them have been in the army as medics and are impressive, and that is an understatement.

When they are out in the field, when they start an iv, they often draw lab work as they are starting the iv, bring it to er with the patient and boom, as the patient rolls in, the lab work is already in the tube system heading to the lab for interpretation.

Before ems personnel intubated Max, I think they would have established a line, potentially drawing labs in the process. So, if these labs were drawn prior to intubation, there should not have been versed present.

Since I wasn't there and have no idea if Coronado fire and rescue draws labs, versed could well be the culprit, if labs were drawn after he was intubated.

Just my :twocents: and my 'fun' times on patient runs following patient transports.

 

[KarenM]

Jenny, they would normally draw a new sample. Where I work, if the child was not on prescription, or over the counter medications that would make the test 'positive', it would be re run on the same sample as well as redrawing of the patient.

The confirmatory test was done on the same sample drawn upon MS's admission to the hospital. "That second test used an analysis method called HPLD/DAD (high-performance liquid chromatography) to check for traces of benzodiazepines in Max's blood samples, which were collected upon the boy's arrival at the hospital following his fall."
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15398193/...n-shacknai-boys-blood-likely-a-false-positive

 

[KarenM]

No one will throw a kid from the second floor to commit murder. 99% of the chance the kid will not die but survive to tell the story. Little Max was extremely unlucky that his spinal cord was unplugged from his brain stem. But as KZ analyzed, no assasin will be that lucky or can expect to be that lucky.

 

[SunnieRN]

Hi Karen, and :welcome: to websleuths!!!!!

 

[CDS22]

I don't think anyone set out to murder MS that day. I think his accident was an accident, but I also think there's a lot more to this case than anyone is revealing. The police might even know more and have decided not to release the information to protect a minor, or because RZ is dead.

IMO

 

[Peaceful]

I have a very hard time imagining anyone purposely hurting MS. He was only 6 years old. I can't see how anyone could have hurt him, however, the explanation that has been provided just flat out doesn't make any sense and has been proven incorrect. (Thanks Val Hall, hinkymeter)

Then we have the RZ case. I see Rebecca's family FIGHTING for answer's and Max's family basically silent. IMO, that is very strange. If I had the financial resources that JS has, I would certainly want a better understanding of what has happened to both my girlfriend and son. In fact, I would be screaming from the tree tops demanding to know what happened. He loved them both. It was quoted that JS said at her funeral he didn't think she would commit suicide. (radaronline), Why, when all of this doesn't add up, is he "accepting" the scenarios provided?

I want the person who has the capacity and wealth to get answers to stand up and help get them. That may be wrong but it is how I feel. IMO

 

[CDS22]

I have a very hard time imagining anyone purposely hurting MS. He was only 6 years old. I can't see how anyone could have hurt him, however, the explanation that has been provided just flat out doesn't make any sense and has been proven incorrect. (Thanks Val Hall, hinkymeter)

Then we have the RZ case. I see Rebecca's family FIGHTING for answer's and Max's family basically silent. IMO, that is very strange. If I had the financial resources that JS has, I would certainly want a better understanding of what has happened to both my girlfriend and son. In fact, I would be screaming from the tree tops demanding to know what happened. He loved them both. It was quoted that JS said at her funeral he didn't think she would commit suicide. (radaronline), Why, when all of this doesn't add up, is he "accepting" the scenarios provided?

I want the person who has the capacity and wealth to get answers to stand up and help get them. That may be wrong but it is how I feel. IMO

Perhaps there is more information that the police have shared with him but declined to make public out of respect for the family. Or perhaps he has hired someone to look into this further but has not advertised that either.

JMO

 

[thinkingstraight]

I think that it's more the public is screaming from the rooftops because the information we were allowed to have didn't add up. For that, i do blame LE. They shouldnt have thought the public so stupid.

 

[Morag]

I don't think anyone set out to murder MS that day. I think his accident was an accident, but I also think there's a lot more to this case than anyone is revealing. The police might even know more and have decided not to release the information to protect a minor, or because RZ is dead.

IMO

What minor would that be? Minor XZ's family is anxious for information. If she needs protecting, why would they want to get the information out in public view?