Discuss Max's death here - Thread #1.

[CDS22]

I'm new to this site, and this investigation, but is it possible that he was standing on the top railing for some reason? Maybe he thought he might swing on the chandelier, climbed up onto the railing, and jumped off towards it, thinking he could grab it? If he was trying to grab for the chandelier, that might explain why he didn't instinctively cover his face with his hands? If he did succeed in grabbing it, or even if he just hit it, that might explained how it fell. If he "face-planted" into the floor, then the chandelier fell after him and hit his back, that might explain the marks on his back. It might have initially hit him in the back and then come to rest off to the side rather than directly on top of him.

Even if he didn't jump off the rail on purpose, if he was standing on it for some reason and lost his footing, he might have grabbed for the chandelier to try to catch himself.

I know chandeliers are supposed to be attached rather securely, but this one clearly was not. Unless someone climbed up and unscrewed it from the ceiling, it fell. I don't think that's disputed. Unless there is an indication that someone did unscrew it?

I haven't heard anything about the chandelier except that it fell down somehow, and that XZ, RZ's sister, cleaned it up. Apparently, she was injured and required stitches as well, but was flown out to another state before getting her stitches out.

His injuries don't make sense to many of us because we can't see how he could reach the chandelier, even if he stood on the railing and reached across. We also can't figure out where all the marks on his body came from. I've posted an article pages back that states that children who fall down the stairs typically don't have injuries on their trunk. Max had marks all over himself, including his neck.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[CDS22]

I can say that Maxie's family is confused about this as well.

In this depiction, I can see 1 neck injury happening from hitting the other side of the stairs (6th or 7th model pose here: http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms01.jpg) But 1 on the other side of the neck? I don't know.

That's very disturbing.

 

[steff13]

Thanks for the welcome!

The autopsy indicates that some of the injuries were healing. Do we know for certain they were sustained in the fall? When my middle son was that age, he was pretty much a walking injury - he was covered with scrapes and bruises, a lot of times we didn't even know how he got them.

I was looking at pictures of the stairwell, and I really do think that if he jumped from the rail above, he might have been able to reach the chandelier. Being that he was only six, I have no doubt that he might have thought that he could reach it, and that he might have made a try to grab for it.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but I do see that it might be possible.

 

[CDS22]

Thanks for the welcome!

The autopsy indicates that some of the injuries were healing. Do we know for certain they were sustained in the fall? When my middle son was that age, he was pretty much a walking injury - he was covered with scrapes and bruises, a lot of times we didn't even know how he got them.

I was looking at pictures of the stairwell, and I really do think that if he jumped from the rail above, he might have been able to reach the chandelier. Being that he was only six, I have no doubt that he might have thought that he could reach it, and that he might have made a try to grab for it.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but I do see that it might be possible.

There's a link on this thread from a site called the Hinky Meter. They don't think that MS's injuries happened the way described, and they give mathematical equations to explain why.

As far as MS's injuries, they were the ones sustained in the fall on Monday, but by the time the autopsy was conducted, they had begun to heal.

 

[chasing.halos]

Steff, :welcome5: !!

 

[stilettos]

Does anyone else wonder how MS got injuries on both sides of his neck ?(page 6 of the autopsy report). Kind of strange for a kid tripping over something and falling over the stairs (this the latest in the Zahau family version of how he got fatally injured).

IDK but I have not heard the Shacknai family asking any questions about MS's death. It would be great to hear from them what their questions are...and the two families could join together and get all their questions answered.

 

[stilettos]

Many things about the article and author of the above seem strange. The author mainly writes articles for beauty products, not crime stories. But then many things in this case also strange. Anyone interested can look her up and the articles she has written. JMO

It is interesting to me that this author mormally writes beauty articles which would fall into the category of JS's business and now writes another piece on two suspicious deaths. One could infer things.

 

[Brit]

I'm new to this site, and this investigation, but is it possible that he was standing on the top railing for some reason? Maybe he thought he might swing on the chandelier, climbed up onto the railing, and jumped off towards it, thinking he could grab it? If he was trying to grab for the chandelier, that might explain why he didn't instinctively cover his face with his hands? If he did succeed in grabbing it, or even if he just hit it, that might explained how it fell. If he "face-planted" into the floor, then the chandelier fell after him and hit his back, that might explain the marks on his back. It might have initially hit him in the back and then come to rest off to the side rather than directly on top of him.

Even if he didn't jump off the rail on purpose, if he was standing on it for some reason and lost his footing, he might have grabbed for the chandelier to try to catch himself.

I know chandeliers are supposed to be attached rather securely, but this one clearly was not. Unless someone climbed up and unscrewed it from the ceiling, it fell. I don't think that's disputed. Unless there is an indication that someone did unscrew it?

I think that your hypothesis of what happened can make sense. The chandelier looks like a low hanging one that hung lower than the balcony. I think that it has been stated that a couple of balls were also at the scene. Could it be possible that a ball could have gotten stuck in the chandelier and ms could have been standing on the banister to possibly try and get the ball down? Since the chandelier is hanging below the railing he might have lost his balance and hit part if the chandelier on the way down, or tried to grab it on the way down?

As far as the facial injuries. If he went down face first, I can see how there would be severe facial and neck injuries. My child has jumped off my couch and face planted right on the floor and just from that short distance she had received a big bump on her forehead, bloody nose and a fat lip. Jmo.

 

[chasing.halos]

IDK but I have not heard the Shacknai family asking any questions about MS's death. It would be great to hear from them what their questions are...and the two families could join together and get all their questions answered.

They have hired their own team of investigators. There is no need for them to go to the media because they have investigators working on it for them. All Dina's side of the family cares about is what happened to Maxie.

 

[chasing.halos]

I think that your hypothesis of what happened can make sense. The chandelier looks like a low hanging one that hung lower than the balcony. I think that it has been stated that a couple of balls were also at the scene. Could it be possible that a ball could have gotten stuck in the chandelier and ms could have been standing on the banister to possibly try and get the ball down? Since the chandelier is hanging below the railing he might have lost his balance and hit part if the chandelier on the way down, or tried to grab it on the way down?

As far as the facial injuries. If he went down face first, I can see how there would be severe facial and neck injuries. My child has jumped off my couch and face planted right on the floor and just from that short distance she had received a big bump on her forehead, bloody nose and a fat lip. Jmo.

IMHO, I just do not see him standing on top of the banister because he needed momentum to fall the way he did. To hit the other side of the stairway banister and land on the other side of the landing- he propelled somehow.

As far as the injuries, I have 2 boys myself and man oh man have they had their share of accidents. I can see the bumps and bruises and facial trauma but the neck injuries intrigue me because they are on both sides.

 

[CDS22]

I think that your hypothesis of what happened can make sense. The chandelier looks like a low hanging one that hung lower than the balcony. I think that it has been stated that a couple of balls were also at the scene. Could it be possible that a ball could have gotten stuck in the chandelier and ms could have been standing on the banister to possibly try and get the ball down? Since the chandelier is hanging below the railing he might have lost his balance and hit part if the chandelier on the way down, or tried to grab it on the way down?

As far as the facial injuries. If he went down face first, I can see how there would be severe facial and neck injuries. My child has jumped off my couch and face planted right on the floor and just from that short distance she had received a big bump on her forehead, bloody nose and a fat lip. Jmo.

A forehead bump, bloody nose, and fat lip are consistent with a fall. MS's injuries (marks on the sides of his neck, on his arms, legs, back, and face) are not. As a matter of fact, child abuse specialists (the link is posted on this thread) say that marks on the trunk of a child (MS had back injuries) are indicative of abuse and injuries from something other than a fall.

 

[stilettos]

They have hired their own team of investigators. There is no need for them to go to the media because they have investigators working on it for them. All Dina's side of the family cares about is what happened to Maxie.

I can see that Dina would have questions about the death of her son...she should be allowed to question at will, as should RZ's family.

 

[Brit]

A forehead bump, bloody nose, and fat lip are consistent with a fall. MS's injuries (marks on the sides of his neck, on his arms, legs, back, and face) are not. As a matter of fact, child abuse specialists (the link is posted on this thread) say that marks on the trunk of a child (MS had back injuries) are indicative of abuse and injuries from something other than a fall.

I would think that when someone falls from a second floor railing into a chandelier with the chandelier falling with the person and possibly on the person would create quite a lot of damage to a body, especially to a small child. Jmo.

 

[Brit]

I can see that Dina would have questions about the death of her son...she should be allowed to question at will, as should RZ's family.

I agree with you, any mother should be able to get the details of what exactly happened and it must be frustrating not to know.

 

[CDS22]

I would think that when someone falls from a second floor railing into a chandelier with the chandelier falling with the person and possibly on the person would create quite a lot of damage to a body, especially to a small child. Jmo.

Ahhh, but did he fall into the chandelier? How would he gain the momentum? How would injuries occur on both sides of his neck if he "fell"?

 

[steff13]

When we're talking abou the neck, we are talking about these injuries, right:

"On the lateral left ala there is a 1/4 inch, vertically oriented, slightly healing, linear abrasion,"

and

"On the anterior right neck, just above the clavicle, there is an obliquely oriented, 1 x 1/4 inch, faint, red contusion/ecchymosis."

I'm having a difficult time picturing these injuries. Based on the language used, I am imagining them as a small scrape on the left and a small, faint bruise on the right. Are there other injuries to the neck that I am not seeing?

Oh, what is benzodiazepine?

 

[steff13]

Ahhh, but did he fall into the chandelier? How would he gain the momentum? How would injuries occur on both sides of his neck if he "fell"?

If he didn't fall into it, how did it fall? Do you think someone purposely removed it?

I think he very well could have jumped, being a little boy, and thinking it might be fun to swing on the chandelier.

I may be reading incorrectly, but I read the injury on the right to be more in the front of his neck than on the side (anterior right neck, above the clavicle), which I think is very possible from the fall he sustained.

I am having trouble picturing where the other one is. Is there a drawing of the injuries somewhere?

 

[CDS22]

When we're talking abou the neck, we are talking about these injuries, right:

"On the lateral left ala there is a 1/4 inch, vertically oriented, slightly healing, linear abrasion,"

and

"On the anterior right neck, just above the clavicle, there is an obliquely oriented, 1 x 1/4 inch, faint, red contusion/ecchymosis."

I'm having a difficult time picturing these injuries. Based on the language used, I am imagining them as a small scrape on the left and a small, faint bruise on the right. Are there other injuries to the neck that I am not seeing?

Oh, what is benzodiazepine?

Those aren't marks consistent with falling down or from the stairs. They are consistent with pressure being put on the neck, IMO.

 

[CDS22]

If he didn't fall into it, how did it fall? Do you think someone purposely removed it?

I think he very well could have jumped, being a little boy, and thinking it might be fun to swing on the chandelier.

I may be reading incorrectly, but I read the injury on the right to be more in the front of his neck than on the side (anterior right neck, above the clavicle), which I think is very possible from the fall he sustained.

I am having trouble picturing where the other one is. Is there a drawing of the injuries somewhere?

Like I said, there's an article from the Hinky Meter site that states it's mathematically impossible for MS to reach the chandelier from the stair railing to create the velocity needed for him to sustain whiplash so severe that he died from it. It just isn't scientifically possible.

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/09/09/rebecca-zahau-case-how-maxs-accident-didnt-happen/

 

[Brit]

Ahhh, but did he fall into the chandelier? How would he gain the momentum? How would injuries occur on both sides of his neck if he "fell"?

Here is the link for the chandelier.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms02.jpg

In my opinion, they say he fell from the very top landing, the chandelier is well below that and he could have easily crashed into that chandelier on the way down. Especially if he was standing, planking, or leaning over the railing. My opinion.