Discussion: Is TH responsible for Kyron's disappearance? #2(POLL ADDED)

[angelswatchoverthem]

The circumstantial evidence against SP was evident very early on and IMO, a little more compelling. If there was the same type of circumstantial evidence against TH I would be right there with everyone ready to convict her. But TH was not found to be making anchors, and claiming to have gone fishing a hundred miles away the day Kyron went missing. Not only that but most of the "hinky" stuff that people are accusing TH of isn't evidence of anything. She must be guilty because she isn't claiming publicly proclaiming her innocence (we can all see how well that worked for the Ramseys). She must be guilty because she isn't reacting they way "I" would. She must be guilty because someone said she did something bad, or she had an affair. She must be guilty because she said she failed a polygraph (which she may or may not have, but it isn't evidence and why would she have gone back for another if she didn't think she could pass it.) She must be guilty because blah blah blah... its getting ridiculous with all the assuming and just plain making things up about this woman. There are even people diagnosing her with mental illnesses, which I find particularly incredible.

Please understand that I am not now, nor was I directing my comments in my original response specifically to you, or any one person, but to the general mindset that based upon what we know right now we should all join a lynch mob to convict this woman. It is undeniable that people are taking situations and twisting them to fit their theory that she is guilty. Such as, she is the last person to see Kyron so she must be guilty. Like I said before, LE never said she was but people want to leave out the word "known" and morph that statement into her factually being the last person to see him. If I'm not mistaken your original post said as much as well which is really what led me to reply in the first place. I don't have the time right now, or the desire to go through each of the points you made. I'll just say that your opinions seem to be in the mainstream of opinions people in general have concerning this case. I responded to it because I am troubled by the willingness of people to take a tiny bit of information and create entire elaborate scenarios that paint this woman as guilty when they aren't willing to consider that perhaps they aren't considering these snippets in the proper context. I give TH the benefit of the doubt because the reality is that there is no reason not to at this point and until there is I'll stay on the fence. If Kyron is found stashed away in a place that is connected to TH or DDS, and either one of them were spotted near there on the day he went missing then I'll start leaning toward the guilty side of the fence.

Maybe its more that what people are getting from media related articles about this case that sways them in their mindset. We really have nothing else to go by other than what is portrayed to us via Kyron's family and LE through media scources! I always have felt that we can probably believe about half the stories that are bantered about in these cases via media coverage, because we have to remember that "sensationalism" sells!
don't get me wrong the media has its place in these cases to bring it to the general public's attention when a child or anyone else for that matter goes missing! Its not always small children that go missing but teens and young adults as well.
I agree with what you have said, and no one really knows the real story in Kyron's disappearance yet. But wasn't it Kyrons mother that said she believes that TH has Kyron "stashed", and believes he is still alive somewhere?I could of sworn i saw her say that on NG last night. That is a statement his biological mother made for whatever reason, but her own words nonetheless!

 

[cypress]

Thank you Jack, so eloquently worded - I whole heartedly agree. Please move over and make room for me on your fence; I'll share my popcorn with you.

I've got chocolate!

Thanks, Jack, for your post. It's precisely where I am with this case.

 

[wondering1]

T Not only that but most of the "hinky" stuff that people are accusing TH of isn't evidence of anything. She must be guilty because she isn't claiming publicly proclaiming her innocence (we can all see how well that worked for the Ramseys). She must be guilty because she isn't reacting they way "I" would. She must be guilty because someone said she did something bad, or she had an affair. She must be guilty because she said she failed a polygraph (which she may or may not have, but it isn't evidence and why would she have gone back for another if she didn't think she could pass it.) She must be guilty because blah blah blah... its getting ridiculous with all the assuming and just plain making things up about this woman. There are even people diagnosing her with mental illnesses, which I find particularly incredible.

You just gave a bunch of different reasons why people who have lived in the world for decades think she is suspicious. Personally, I don't think that suspending everthing we've learned in life that makes us suspicious of another's behavior is a laudable, noble or productive goal. We have instincts for a reason, and they are largely accurate. jmoo

 

[stmarysmead]

The circumstantial evidence against SP was evident very early on and IMO, a little more compelling. If there was the same type of circumstantial evidence against TH I would be right there with everyone ready to convict her. But TH was not found to be making anchors, and claiming to have gone fishing a hundred miles away the day Kyron went missing. Not only that but most of the "hinky" stuff that people are accusing TH of isn't evidence of anything. She must be guilty because she isn't claiming publicly proclaiming her innocence (we can all see how well that worked for the Ramseys). She must be guilty because she isn't reacting they way "I" would. She must be guilty because someone said she did something bad, or she had an affair. She must be guilty because she said she failed a polygraph (which she may or may not have, but it isn't evidence and why would she have gone back for another if she didn't think she could pass it.) She must be guilty because blah blah blah... its getting ridiculous with all the assuming and just plain making things up about this woman. There are even people diagnosing her with mental illnesses, which I find particularly incredible.

Please understand that I am not now, nor was I directing my comments in my original response specifically to you, or any one person, but to the general mindset that based upon what we know right now we should all join a lynch mob to convict this woman. It is undeniable that people are taking situations and twisting them to fit their theory that she is guilty. Such as, she is the last person to see Kyron so she must be guilty. Like I said before, LE never said she was but people want to leave out the word "known" and morph that statement into her factually being the last person to see him. If I'm not mistaken your original post said as much as well which is really what led me to reply in the first place. I don't have the time right now, or the desire to go through each of the points you made. I'll just say that your opinions seem to be in the mainstream of opinions people in general have concerning this case. I responded to it because I am troubled by the willingness of people to take a tiny bit of information and create entire elaborate scenarios that paint this woman as guilty when they aren't willing to consider that perhaps they aren't considering these snippets in the proper context. I give TH the benefit of the doubt because the reality is that there is no reason not to at this point and until there is I'll stay on the fence. If Kyron is found stashed away in a place that is connected to TH or DDS, and either one of them were spotted near there on the day he went missing then I'll start leaning toward the guilty side of the fence.

Jack, first of all I'll say...blessed are the fence-sitters...particularly in regard to our jury system. I agree with and admire much of what you say in principle just not in the specifics of this case.

Like you, I'm also completely willing to reverse myself if further evidence or events warrant it. The most unfortunate "condition" of all is to stake out a position on a real person's guilt or innocence and then, refuse to ever yield because one has embraced the ARGUMENT and must forever defend it. I was close to the Duke Lacrosse Hoax and saw that stubborn quality hurt innocent people intensely....long after it should have stopped.

But I do disagree that there is no reason NOT to give TH "the benefit of the doubt at this point"....and that is because a child is missing and if alive, endangered. And his parents are suffering mightily. That said, Peterson may have been making anchors, but no one came forward during the investigation to accuse him of making plans to try and have anyone killed!

While THAT "snippet" is on the table and not refuted...my "benefit of the doubt" is withdrawn!

Because..that murder-for-hire accusation alone, at this point, trumps whatever we EVER knew about Scott Peterson.

We also know that report was credible enough to LE that they informed Kaine...and credible enough to Kaine and a judge... that a restraining order was issued and Kaine given Baby K.

Terri has NOT fought for Baby K.

An accusation that another human life is expendable to you in your value system, that you are emotionally programmed to believe murder is a problem-solver...is much more compelling reason that an exercise in anchor-making to make someone "worthy" of suspicion IMO.

If true...it also would be an extreme emotional aberration and indicator of mental illness, wouldn't it?

So, in that context, I can understand why people are discussing mental illness in regard to Terri.

And that accusation of murder-for-hire is every reason...to take the OTHER unexplained parts of Terri's story and put a new intensity on WHY they don't match. Linked together with this bombshell, I disagree that "none of this is evidence of anything." Many of those who defend Terri...want just to argue whether earaches are soothed by car rides.

It's the Woman-Who-Tried-To-Hire-A-Killer as the last known person to see a missing child... the Woman-Who-Tried-To-Hire-A-Killer who failed lie detector tests...the Woman-Who-Tried-To-Hire-A-Killer riding around for hours,while her story is unverifiable.

That's a lot heavier than A-Guy-With-A-Boat-Who-Made-Anchors.

Then there is the question of whom to believe. If the Lie Detector story is false, Kaine and Desiree are liars. If the Murder Plan story is false, the Landscaper is a Liar. If that Sex-ting story is false, the new acquaintance is a Liar. If she has fully cooperated, the Police are Liars. If her personal timeline is credible and there is evidence to confirm it, police sources to the Media are Liars. If DeDe never got a call from her and left her job unexpected during the key time, the co-workers who reported this are Liars too.

Quite a conspiracy. Either that or one person...Terri..is a Liar.

Because in order to accept Terri as an innocent victim, I have to discredit and call dishonest an awful lot of other people.

I disagree that there is any "lynch mob." At this point, a child is missing...and the person last KNOWN to have seen him has had an explosive charge of attempted murder-planning made against her. In context of that, all the other hinky details connected to her...look very important. At the least, every detail of around her and about her... needs scrutinizing. That is NOT a lynch mob. That is an investigation into finding a missing small child.

Does Terri deserve to be exempted? Why?

And if this were a child I loved, I'd endure it, and anything else for his sake. Kyron, that sweet little guy is the victim here.

 

[Donjeta]

Such as, she is the last person to see Kyron so she must be guilty. Like I said before, LE never said she was but people want to leave out the word "known" and morph that statement into her factually being the last person to see him.

Snipped. This is a problem for me because Terri apparently says that she left the school at 8:45 and Kyron was in a hallway, about to go to his classroom at the time, and was just a few feet away. But he never got there, apparently, and that leaves a very small window of opportunity for the perp to act IMO. If Kyron didn't suddenly decide to skip his class and go wandering on his own (which seems to be out of character for him) or hop into the bathroom (is there one between where he was last seen and his classroom?) and or something the chances are that the perp was in the hallway when Terri left and struck at once when she turned her back to go.

I would like to know if Terri says any other people were there at the time she said goodbye to Kyron.

Did Misty Croslin have an attorney at the time? It would still be her decision, of course, but if she did, I am sure her attorney was most definitely not happy about that plan.

fftopic: but anyway, she did have an attorney and her attorney was not happy at all but she chose to disregard his advice and even signed a piece of paper saying so.

 

[AvalonBlue]

Jack, first of all I'll say...blessed are the fence-sitters...particularly in regard to our jury system. I agree with and admire much of what you say in principle just not in the specifics of this case.

Like you, I'm also completely willing to reverse myself if further evidence or events warrant it. The most unfortunate "condition" of all is to stake out a position on a real person's guilt or innocence and then, refuse to ever yield because one has embraced the ARGUMENT and must forever defend it. I was close to the Duke Lacrosse Hoax and saw that stubborn quality hurt innocent people intensely....long after it should have stopped.

But I do disagree that there is no reason NOT to give TH "the benefit of the doubt at this point"....and that is because a child is missing and if alive, endangered. And his parents are suffering mightily. That said, Peterson may have been making anchors, but no one came forward during the investigation to accuse him of making plans to try and have anyone killed!

While THAT "snippet" is on the table and not refuted...my "benefit of the doubt" is withdrawn!

Because..that murder-for-hire accusation alone, at this point, trumps whatever we EVER knew about Scott Peterson.

We also know that report was credible enough to LE that they informed Kaine...and credible enough to Kaine and a judge... that a restraining order was issued and Kaine given Baby K.

Terri has NOT fought for Baby K.

An accusation that another human life is expendable to you in your value system, that you are emotionally programmed to believe murder is a problem-solver...is much more compelling reason that an exercise in anchor-making to make someone "worthy" of suspicion IMO.

If true...it also would be an extreme emotional aberration and indicator of mental illness, wouldn't it?

So, in that context, I can understand why people are discussing mental illness in regard to Terri.

And that accusation of murder-for-hire is every reason...to take the OTHER unexplained parts of Terri's story and put a new intensity on WHY they don't match. Linked together with this bombshell, I disagree that "none of this is evidence of anything." Many of those who defend Terri...want just to argue whether earaches are soothed by car rides.

It's the Woman-Who-Tried-To-Hire-A-Killer as the last known person to see a missing child... the Woman-Who-Tried-To-Hire-A-Killer who failed lie detector tests...the Woman-Who-Tried-To-Hire-A-Killer riding around for hours,while her story is unverifiable.

That's a lot heavier than A-Guy-With-A-Boat-Who-Made-Anchors.

Then there is the question of whom to believe. If the Lie Detector story is false, Kaine and Desiree are liars. If the Murder Plan story is false, the Landscaper is a Liar. If that Sex-ting story is false, the new acquaintance is a Liar. If she has fully cooperated, the Police are Liars. If her personal timeline is credible and there is evidence to confirm it, police sources to the Media are Liars. If DeDe never got a call from her and left her job unexpected during the key time, the co-workers who reported this are Liars too.

Quite a conspiracy. Either that or one person...Terri..is a Liar.

Because in order to accept Terri as an innocent victim, I have to discredit and call dishonest an awful lot of other people.

I disagree that there is any "lynch mob." At this point, a child is missing...and the person last KNOWN to have seen him has had an explosive charge of attempted murder-planning made against her. In context of that, all the other hinky details connected to her...look very important. At the least, every detail of around her and about her... needs scrutinizing. That is NOT a lynch mob. That is an investigation into finding a missing small child.

Does Terri deserve to be exempted? Why?

And if this were a child I loved, I'd endure it, and anything else for his sake. Kyron, that sweet little guy is the victim here.

For a second time tonight, stmarysmead, I've got to hand it to you for another really great post.

Thank you for your eloquence, your reasoning, and your fire!

 

[Calliope]

While I would certainly never do the things that we have heard that Terri did, I am not sure I can judge others on how they may act in certain situations.

I have heard of men and women who lost their long term spouse who wound up having sex with one of their best friends shortly after the funeral. That is absolutely unfathomable to me but when someone is sad and are in very stressful situations, I don't think some people's behaviors are predictable. Maybe it is to escape reality.

Until I see that she was also doing this with the LS too I will wait until the evidence comes forward on that. If she promised the LS sex for a hit on Kaine and that was the deal then the hit would have been carried out, imo.

I believe something very serious happened in the Horman household around December 2009. It has been hinted that maybe there was an affair that did not involve Terri so this bizarre behavior of sexting could have been nothing more than wanting to feel that she was still desirable to a man and wanting to feel she could play the field too. Before then I do believe they were a pretty cohesive family.

After Kaine moved out and took their child I feel she did the sexting with MC in order to prove to Kaine she no longer wanted or needed him. She had to know LE was watching her closely and who was hanging around her. Imo, she knew this would get back to Kaine.

I remember when Cynthia Somer's husband (her night in shinning armor, so she said) suddenly died. Instead of being a grieving widow outwardly she was going to wet T shirt contests and having sex with multiple people right after he died.


IMO

bbm

But she didn't act normal!

 

[Calliope]

I'm half asleep here, but I seem to remember LE searching a horse farm ... on Kaine's suggestion? Does anyone else remember that and was it ever confirmed why he'd ask them to search there? Did the family have a connection to the property or owners? If so... I wonder if Terri had access (with or without the knowledge of the owners). I'd like to know if LE not only searched for Kyron but also took note of any vet meds and supplies kept on the farm, and where, and if they were locked up.

 

[Emeralgem]

I'm half asleep here, but I seem to remember LE searching a horse farm ... on Kaine's suggestion? Does anyone else remember that and was it ever confirmed why he'd ask them to search there? Did the family have a connection to the property or owners? If so... I wonder if Terri had access (with or without the knowledge of the owners). I'd like to know if LE not only searched for Kyron but also took note of any vet meds and supplies kept on the farm, and where, and if they were locked up.

o.m.g.....Horse tranquilizers and haven't people been known to use them to lose weight?

 

[manybooks]

I spend a lot of time on the fence, but what is currently weighing on my mind that is keeping me leaning toward the "Terri is somehow responsible for whatever happened" side of the fence is - Kaine getting the restraining order and full temp. custody of baby k granted from the court under these circustances:
"I believe respondent is involved in the disappearance of my son Kyron," Kaine Horman wrote. "I also recently learned that respondent attempted to hire someone to murder me. The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true."
Courts are generally VERY hesitant to completely take away parental rights. I feel there must be very good reasoning behind this, and therefore I'm leaning toward Terri being responsible.

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

I would like to add to my previous post in saying, when DY so adamantly states on T.V. that she believes Kyron is alive and stashed somewhere, does this mean that perhaps TH was asked in the polygraph about if she knew wether Kyron was alive or not, and maybe passed that part of the polygraph? KWIM?

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

But then that would mean that TH knows about where Kyron is, and his whereabouts and about his welfare! Sorry, just thinking about the possibilities! And if she appears to know all this then i guess LE would be pressuring her further into finding out what she had done with Kyron, if she did anything at all, that is? Can LE still interrogate her further even though she has a lawyer? My guess is they could if they thought she definitely knows something, after all she is of prime focus in this investigation from what we have heard.

 

[cluciano63]

LE can't make her answer any questions at all, even if they think she knows everything they want to know. Lawyer or no lawyer, they can't interrogate her unless she choose to be interrogated. They can ask to question her some more...but she does not have to agree. I am sure her lawyer feels she has cooperated already with the LD tests, interviews, etc. It is doubtful to me that LE will get any more chances to talk to Terri.

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

LE can't make her answer any questions at all, even if they think she knows everything they want to know. Lawyer or no lawyer, they can't interrogate her unless she choose to be interrogated. They can ask to question her some more...but she does not have to agree. I am sure her lawyer feels she has cooperated already with the LD tests, interviews, etc. It is doubtful to me that LE will get any more chances to talk to Terri.

Thanks for clarifying that. I didn't realise they wouldn't be able to question her further about Kyron's disappearance if they were convinced she knew something.

 

[SurfieTX]

Thanks for clarifying that. I didn't realise they wouldn't be able to question her further about Kyron's disappearance if they were convinced she knew something.

One thing I have noticed on The First 48 is that after a suspect "lawyers up," they don't bother with questioning anymore. It's pretty much a waste of time and man hours. LE just builds the case with evidence.

 

[debs]

One thing I have noticed on The First 48 is that after a suspect "lawyers up," they don't bother with questioning anymore. It's pretty much a waste of time and man hours. LE just builds the case with evidence.

Which is how it should be.

 

[1Chump]

This paragraph is from one of the latest reports:

In court documents, the boy's father Kaine Horman stated police had provided him with "probable cause" to believe that Terri was involved in Kyron's disappearance, plotted to have Kaine killed, and was having a sexual affair.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Reward-missing-Portland--Kyron-Horman-up-to-50000-99349594.html

I think this is more concrete that rumor or hearsay. LE has evidently given Kaine probable cause, and this was evidently stated in the court documents Kaine filed for divorce.

The papers say that Kaine has probably cause to believe it....not that LE has probable cause.

Obviously, LE does not have probable cause. TH has not been arrested.

IMO, LE is throwing out the words "probable cause' as an investigative tool to get people to talk.. LE told Kaine and TH's friends that they have probable cause to get them to see TH in a different light. If you do not believe someone is capable of committing a crime, you will not question anything you thought was normal. However, if you believe that LE has "probable cause" you will start seeing something you thought as normal as strange.

 

[1Chump]

I agree with all your points but especially these.

I realize it may not be politically correct to judge TH for this whole sexting thing, but I think it is bizarre. Her actions go way beyond flirting and some of it was still going on during the search for Kyron when she was supposedly grieving as much as Kyron's other parents - that is a huge red flag.

The logical conclusion is that this wasn't a cohesive family at all, and that Terri was trying to move on with her life, and therefore, being Kyron's stepmother really didn't mean anything to her. We can't really have it both ways - she was a loving wife&mother AND she was sexting with men she hardly knew.

We can debate just what did matter to her (money? being seen naked?) but being a stepmom to this little boy was not her top priority, in my opinion.

While it may seem bizaree, there also could be a reasonable explanation other than she was involved in Kyron's disappearance.

IMO, it is only strange to those who do not have abandonment issues. At the time she alledgedly did this, she had just lost everything. Not only did her fear of being abandoned happen but she lost everyone. She was in deep grief. If she has any type of abandonment issues, this is not strange behavior at all. People with severe abandonment issues equate "flirting" and/or "sex" with love. Sadly, they do not realize that sex does not equal love. They see every man in terms of sex and are their comments/actions are very inappropriate.

IMO, I do not know for sure if she has severe abandonment issues. However, that behavior reminds me of my sister. As a single woman, I commented on how cute my nephew's basketball coach was to my sister. My married sister with 5 kids immediately said "I would love to "F" him." I immediately told her that was disgusting. She could not understand how I could want to talk to a man and get to know him. It was all about sex. Ironically, she also worked at like TH. Their bodies are important because you have to get men to look at you in a sexual way to get them to "love" you.

 

[1Chump]

Excellent post, Jack. But, once again...this requires in every instance, you give Terri the benefit of the doubt. EVERY TIME.If we knit all these things together, we have a woman who "appears" to be the last one to see her missing step-child...and is also the "victim" of every other one of these coincidences:

1. Terri is a woman who unfortunately has a terrible memory of things that happened THAT very morning. Remember police were called in the early afternoon.

2. And unfortunately, she also lives in a rural area where her cell phone pings may give a wrong impression of her whereabouts that she again, unfortunately, cannot remember.

3. And gee whiz, that means her story and the stuff the police CAN determine do not jibe, once again, unfortunately for her.

4. And, darn it, other witnesses are saying her best friend just happened to get a call and leave work abruptly in the suspicious time frame she just coincidentally can't remember and those darn cell phone pings are skewing the wrong way.

5. And...actually the police said:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/na...ing_oregon_boy_case/srvc=home&position=recent

"The statement also said the boy’s stepmother - Terri Horman - has sometimes been cooperative with police but other times she has not."

That does not mean "cooperated" as you state...as in "done every darn thing she could." Kind-of half and half.

So here again, Terri is a victim in that she is just trying to protect herself when a small child is missing and everybody is taking this the wrong way.

6. And unlucky Terri is the victim of yet ANOTHER coincidence in that some new acquaintance supposedly has texts of a sexual nature of her as stated in a filed court document...but that is just her way of getting "release" because of all the other coincidences about her bad memory, weird cell pings, friend-leaving-work-in-time-frame, innocent attempts to protect herself, and police saying her cooperation is ...um-m-m-m half-and-half.

7. And if this sext-ing thing weren't the sorriest coincidence of all, ANOTHER man tells police she tried to hire him to kill her husband! After her attempts at sexual release, attempts to protect herself, poor memory, weird actions of friend, living in bad cell phone area, and being called only "sometimes" cooperative, all have cast her in a bad, but wrong light.

This Terri has incredibly bad luck. So innocent , yet ALL these coincidences.

I guess when it takes thinking I have to believe her luck is THAT bad, over and over again...I just can't balance all those coincidences...and fall off the fence.

I won't give any back story...THAT much benefit of the doubt...but, admittedly, I could be wrong. Terri could be just an incredibly unlucky woman.

But not as unlucky as poor little Kyron.

That is the way our legal system works.

IMO, the reason the fence sitters are sitting on the fence is that they look at it from a Court of Law stand point, not a Court of Public Opinion standpoint.

IMO, most of the allegations that have been reported will never make it in to a Court of Law as evidence. At least not the way they have been reported.

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

As much as a lot of negativity about TH has been cast into the limelight, in lieu of Kyron's disappearance, doesn't this woman have any positive traits? She must have had, IMO. She was helping at the school with teaching to help children to read, wasn't she? I wouldn't think they would let her do that without some kind of background check? She was Kyron's prime caregiver i would imagine, if she had nurtured him for the last 5 yrs. I see in the photos that are out there of him in the media, a very happy looking little boy, that was also taken good care of i'm sure, or it would have been reported to someone at some stage if this hadn't been the case?
I know a lot are discussing the fact that Terri has not fought to keep custody of her baby daughter. I think about that, and could it be because she is aware that she is the prime focus of the investigation into Kyron being missing, that she is feeling immense guilt, and feels she perhaps doesn't have any right at this point in time to demand custody of her daughter? JMO.