Discussion: Is TH responsible for Kyron's disappearance? #2(POLL ADDED)

[nonfictionrocks]

I am getting so irritated with this case that I'm close to climbing down off the fence.

Why Kat010?

 

[Kat010]

Aaaargh. I had this whole post almost done. Went to copy it and save, as I do, and something "jumped" and it's gone.

I dunno if I want to redo all that. Now I'm po'd about that, too!

Thanks for asking. Lemme think about it. I decided to take a break after the post disappeared and take my trash (huge bin from city) out. Rolled the heavy bin over my foot.

Kat is, right now, not amused. :snooty:

 

[BeanE]

Aaaargh. I had this whole post almost done. Went to copy it and save, as I do, and something "jumped" and it's gone.

I dunno if I want to redo all that. Now I'm po'd about that, too!

Thanks for asking. Lemme think about it. I decided to take a break after the post disappeared and take my trash (huge bin from city) out. Rolled the heavy bin over my foot.

Kat is, right now, not amused. :snooty:

When the forum is having glitches as it is for many of us right now, best thing to do is, before you hit Submit, hit Ctrl A to select your whole post, then Ctrl C to Copy it. If it doesn't post, you'll have it saved in memory, and you can start a new post and just Paste it in (Ctrl V).

 

[nosysw]

When the forum is having glitches as it is for many of us right now, best thing to do is, before you hit Submit, hit Ctrl A to select your whole post, then Ctrl C to Copy it. If it doesn't post, you'll have it saved in memory, and you can start a new post and just Paste it in (Ctrl V).

yup- unfortunately I often forget this until I've lost it due to the glitch :loser:

but I'm getting there!

 

[Kat010]

Thanks, Bean.

Yea, I started to do the save. I always have TextPad open and save stuff. But just when I did the copy--wham! A glitch got me.

Frizz fram frustrated!

Helpful hint: don't roll a large, loaded trash bin over your foot. Just sayin'.

 

[Jack]

Nothing reported has been confirmed by LE except that Kyron is missing. So, nothing sways my opinion except one fact that is known: Th gave up custodial and/or visitation rights to her baby, rather than possibly incriminate herself criminally. I have said this repeatedly: No innocent mother would do this.
So, yes, that fact alone convinces me that TH is guilty of something in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.

Who said she gave up custody and visitation? Deferring the divorce in no way does that, nor does not fighting the RO. Doing what your lawyer advises is not indicative of one's guilt or not, especially if it means that eventually you might get your life back.

 

[cypress]

I'm still not convinced Terri is guilty. In cases like these, I see a lot of comparisons to other cases, but honestly, this is not similar to any case I've watched unfold in the press. This is the first case I've followed online to this extent.

I was living in California when Danielle van Dam went missing, and obviously that case received a lot of coverage there. I remember there was a slow trickle of jaw-dropping details leaked about the parents. Swinging, drugs, Brenda van Dam dancing or not with David Westerfield, the father at home alone with the kids, nothing out of the ordinary and Danielle literally vanished into thin air. I'm still not sure how David Westerfield managed to remove Danielle from the house unseen and without leaving behind any evidence, but it happened. David Westerfield is guilty as sin, and Danielle's parents while irresponsible, while immoral by the standards of many, while perhaps negligent by the standards of some, are completely innocent. Danielle's case reminds me of this case, but only insofar as Terri reminds me of the van Dams.

It looks bad for Terri, very bad, but the only evidence I see right now is evidence that she is probably self-destructive, lonely, suffers from low self-esteem, and she's not very smart when trying to be covert. Maybe it's all an act, but the person who took Kyron was smart and cunning. I think it's a mistake to underestimate the intelligence and cojones of whoever took Kyron. Whoever took Kyron that day knew what they were doing, knew enough to avoid detection, left no evidence of his abduction, left no evidence of a murder, left no evidence of any kind that physically ties them to his disappearance, IMHO. The only evidence directly related to Kyron's disappearance, IMHO, is that he is gone. Everything else is almost peripheral evidence, IMHO.

Terri wasn't smart enough to avoid detection when sexting or buying batphones, but we're supposed to believe she was smart enough and cunning enough to abduct a child from his school and probably murder him without leaving behind so much as a shred of evidence directly linking her to the crimes?

It's a tough sell for me...I'm open to all possibilities, and I try to see things from both sides, but for now, when I look at Terri, I see a woman who is her own worst enemy more than I see a woman responsible for Kyron's disappearance and his probable death.

 

[Kat010]

I'm still not convinced Terri is guilty. In cases like these, I see a lot of comparisons to other cases, but honestly, this is not similar to any case I've watched unfold in the press. This is the first case I've followed online to this extent.

I was living in California when Danielle van Dam went missing, and obviously that case received a lot of coverage there. I remember there was a slow trickle of jaw-dropping details leaked about the parents. Swinging, drugs, Brenda van Dam dancing or not with David Westerfield, the father at home alone with the kids, nothing out of the ordinary and Danielle literally vanished into thin air. I'm still not sure how David Westerfield managed to remove Danielle from the house unseen and without leaving behind any evidence, but it happened. David Westerfield is guilty as sin, and Danielle's parents while irresponsible, while immoral by the standards of many, while perhaps negligent by the standards of some, are completely innocent. Danielle's case reminds me of this case, but only insofar as Terri reminds me of the van Dams.

It looks bad for Terri, very bad, but the only evidence I see right now is evidence that she is probably self-destructive, lonely, suffers from low self-esteem, and she's not very smart when trying to be covert. Maybe it's all an act, but the person who took Kyron was smart and cunning. I think it's a mistake to underestimate the intelligence and cojones of whoever took Kyron. Whoever took Kyron that day knew what they were doing, knew enough to avoid detection, left no evidence of his abduction, left no evidence of a murder, left no evidence of any kind that physically ties them to his disappearance, IMHO. The only evidence directly related to Kyron's disappearance, IMHO, is that he is gone. Everything else is almost peripheral evidence, IMHO.

Terri wasn't smart enough to avoid detection when sexting or buying batphones, but we're supposed to believe she was smart enough and cunning enough to abduct a child from his school and probably murder him without leaving behind so much as a shred of evidence directly linking her to the crimes?

It's a tough sell for me...I'm open to all possibilities, and I try to see things from both sides, but for now, when I look at Terri, I see a woman who is her own worst enemy more than I see a woman responsible for Kyron's disappearance and his probable death.

What you said.

 

[Donjeta]

Terri wasn't smart enough to avoid detection when sexting or buying batphones, but we're supposed to believe she was smart enough and cunning enough to abduct a child from his school and probably murder him without leaving behind so much as a shred of evidence directly linking her to the crimes?

Snipped by me. I'm not so sure there is not a shred of evidence linking her to Kyron's disappearance since it looks like there is a focus on her and people must have some reasons to suspect her if there is enough to warrant a GJ hearing, IMO. We don't know what LE has. Whether or not she had to be extraordinarily cunning and smart to avoid leaving certain evidence it's hard for me to assess without knowing what happened, what kind of evidence would be expected and what was found.

 

[nurseratchett]

If TH did it, and I believe she did, why would she have to be smart and cunning to take him from the school and avoid leaving evidence? No body has been found, so no evidence has been collected yet- there may be plenty at some point. And of course his DNA is all over the truck, house, and her.
No, she didn't have to be smart or cunning. Just evil.

 

[AvalonBlue]

Snipped by me. I'm not so sure there is not a shred of evidence linking her to Kyron's disappearance since it looks like there is a focus on her and people must have some reasons to suspect her if there is enough to warrant a GJ hearing, IMO. We don't know what LE has. Whether or not she had to be extraordinarily cunning and smart to avoid leaving certain evidence it's hard for me to assess without knowing what happened, what kind of evidence would be expected and what was found.

BBM

What you said! :bow:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[AvalonBlue]

If TH did it, and I believe she did, why would she have to be smart and cunning to take him from the school and avoid leaving evidence? No body has been found, so no evidence has been collected yet- there may be plenty at some point. And of course his DNA is all over the truck, house, and her.
No, she didn't have to be smart or cunning. Just evil.

And, what you said, too! :bow:

 

[gitana1]

Who said she gave up custody and visitation? Deferring the divorce in no way does that, nor does not fighting the RO. Doing what your lawyer advises is not indicative of one's guilt or not, especially if it means that eventually you might get your life back.

I have explained this on several threads. She did give up custody and visitation by failing to contest the RO. Deferring the disso does not alter that. Unless consolidated, those are two different cases. The permanent custody orders issued in connection with the hearing on the RO request are not automatically revisited in conjunction with the disso action and she did not abate the custody orders. Those have been made in connection with the RO.
Anyone can petition the court at any time to modify child custody orders but getting the court to grant a modification is a different animal.
In TH's specific case, her decision not to contest the RO has certain consequences:
1. She helped create the status quo of the baby living with Kaine and having zero (0) contact with TH. Courts generally seek to maintain the status quo. The longer TH fails to seek to modify the current custody orders, the more firmly set the status quo will be. So, let's say down the road, she is cleared of any MFH or any crime in connection with Kyron's disappearance. If more than a few months have passed, it is unlikely, IMO, that TH would be granted more than visitation for some time. It is also very possible that she would never gain primary custody of her child.
2. Further, most courts necessitate a change of circumstances in order to grant a request to modify custody. Although TH could use the excuse that she was under a cloud of suspicion and is now cleared (should that happen), she would have to show that being cleared is an event that has the effect of making it in the best interest of her baby to modify the orders. But, for the reasons stated in number 1 above, that would not be the most persuasive argument. Kaine will likely be able to show that he has done a good job of parenting the child alone and that she no longer knows her mother, assuming this goes on long enough. TH would not be able to effectively use the argument that the child needs the parent who was her primary caregiver. Time away from TH erodes that argument. In essence, TH would have a better shot in the future of getting an award of primary custody to her if Kaine could be shown to have problems parenting, for whatever reason. I do not see that occurring.
3. A finding of DV against a parent heavily influences custody orders. TH has been found by the court to have committed DV because she failed to contest the RO application. Sure, she could later argue that she could not contest the allegations due to the possibility of incriminating herself, and the court may consider that argument. But the court would then likely ask how an innocent person with no charges pending, who has not even been named a suspect, would fear incriminating themselves.
Bottom lime is that TH has given up her custody and visitation rights by failing to contest the RO. She can later petition to regain those rights but for now, they are gone. There is a "permanent" order in place that does not allow her to have any contact with her child.
And if she is innocent of any of the allegations Kaine made against her, failing to respond to the RO was a massively risky plan that set her up to be unlikely to gain primary custody of her baby unless Kaine really screws up.
Of course, if TH is cleared tomorrow, her chances are much, much better. But something tells me that she won't be.
ETA:
I am confused about this theory that refusing to fight the allegations against her will somehow enable TH to "get her life back". I have seen this theory from a couple of people. From a legal standpoint, it makes no sense to me.
Kaine made, from what I can see, unsupported allegations against TH. In order to secure an RO and companion child custody orders, he would have had to prove up his case, if TH contested the application, by producing actual evidence in support of those allegations. If TH is innocent, she just gave up her chance to force Kaine to pee or get off the pot, so to speak and I can't see a good reason for her to have done that in such a situation.
Also, if I was TH's attorney, I would definitely advise her in the way her attorney is. But that's because I think she is guilty of something. I believe her attorneys do too. I litigate DV case all the time and only advise my clients not to testify if I know that something could incriminate them, i.e., that they have done something that could lead to criminal charges. A finding of DV against a person, which is what happens if a person fails to contest the application, results in serious consequences for the party. Usually, one cannot get DV convictions or findings expunged. A finding of DV is put into statewide databases and impact the ability of the party to get any kind of government job, teaching job, any job related to the medical field or child care or jobs necessitating a security clearance. That's why innocent people normally fight such a charge/allegation. But if there is a chance that the party actually did one of the things alleged, and if those things could cause criminal charges, then the party should not testify.
Finally, no matter what my attorney advised, anyone telling me to give up contact with my child in order to possibly avoid some kind of criminal charge, would get shown the door. And that's saying it nicely. Doing what one's attorney advises sure as heck is indicative of one's guilt when that advice goes against every instinct a person has as a parent. That baby needs her mother (if she is a safe person). She has been ripped from her primary caregiver. TH allowed that. IMO, no innocent mother would.

 

[LotsaLatte]

I voted "other" and here is why:
At first, gut instinct told me right off the bat "Terri did it." That was based on the presser that all parents and step parents were there.
But I need more info to form a solid, 100% sure thing on that.
Like evidence. Tangible evidence. It's driving me nuts! I so wanted Kyron to be home by now.

 

[gitana1]

But how could she even begin to guess that no one would see her? It's a pretty crappy plan to just HOPE no one sees you.

And then what does she say? She can't just suddenly remember that the appointment is for the next week and march him back into the school. If she says, "Oh we're on our way to an appt." then what does she tell Kyron? There is no appointment! What if he told Kaine? "Hey, Mom took me from school today and told Mrs. Jones I had a doctor appointment but we really just went to the grocery store and the gym!"

There is also a risk that the teacher will vividly remember and be SURE that Terri said she was taking him to the doctor. Obviously that is not the case, or they wouldn't have spent so much time searching in and around the school for a child who wandered away.

There is a risk Kyron would have told someone, anyone, that he had an appointment and would/would not be back later for the talent show. Obviously there has been no witness who could say that for the same reasons.

There is a risk that the teacher could have been unsure and called Terri on her cell (all three of my kids' schools have mine, my DH's, and all 4 grandparents' numbers). Just to double check that she had him. How could Terri even begin to guess that the teacher wouldn't check? I know it was a crazy day but, having taught this age, I would be even more cautious b/c it was abnormal. I would be counting (like the parent volunteer did) regularly and wondering...hmmm...did Terri take him or is he in the gym and hasn't even noticed we came back to the room? ESPECIALLY with a kid who has trouble with directions and might get distracted.

The fact is that somehow Kyron left the school without being seen, but I don't know how anyone could have planned that. That's what makes me lean toward a SO who just happened to spot Kyron on his own for a minute.

This is what keeps me on the fence...I just can't picture any way that it makes sense.

Although I am firmly off the fence now, this is a great argument. Excellent questions, IMO. These were the reasons I was on the fence before. It does not make sense to me. Seems incredibly risky - planning such a thing.
Hopefully we will have answers eventually, one way or another.

 

[Donjeta]

I suppose there is no certainty that Terri told Kyron that he had a doctor's appointment but if she did tell him but had to call off the plan before doing anything to him I imagine she could always have faked getting a call or a text message from the doctor's office and have told Kyron that the doctor called the appointment off because he was sick. It wouldn't necessarily have raised any flags even if Kyron told about it at school because anybody could take their child out of school thinking they have an appointment, only to have it cancelled for reasons out of their control. If he told Kaine and Kaine didn't know anything about any reason for a doctor's appointment to be scheduled it would have been more suspicious but most kids have a few little ailments from time to time that could be used as an excuse. If Terri used to take care of his appointments she could have said, "Yeah, don't you remember, we discussed that his X needed to be checked out and I reserved the appointment, I told you about it last week, don't you remember?"

If something had happened to Kyron later and the police checked this phantom appointment out it wouldn't have looked good for Terri but as long as Kyron is there safe and sound there might not be any reason for anybody to question her about it.

 

[cypress]

Snipped by me. I'm not so sure there is not a shred of evidence linking her to Kyron's disappearance since it looks like there is a focus on her and people must have some reasons to suspect her if there is enough to warrant a GJ hearing, IMO. We don't know what LE has. Whether or not she had to be extraordinarily cunning and smart to avoid leaving certain evidence it's hard for me to assess without knowing what happened, what kind of evidence would be expected and what was found.

IMHO, there is not a shred of physical evidence that ties Terri to Kyron's disappearance. Admittedly, this is my opinion, but it is an educated opinion. We know there is no evidence of a murder. LE has stated there is no evidence Kyron is not alive, and DY's and KH's continued assertions that Kyron is alive and stashed away, while simultaneously claiming regular briefings by LE, conveys to me that LE has no evidence a murder has taken place.

Also, IMHO, if there was a witness or other evidence such as video cameras that placed Kyron with Terri on June 4 after she claimed to have left him at the school, she would have been arrested for custodial interference or something similar. LE wants to lean on her. There is no doubt in my mind they believe she's guilty. They want her to confess Kyron's whereabouts and for this case to be resolved. LE is under a tremendous amount of pressure psychologically, socially, and financially for this case to be resolved. LE wanted to arrest Terri for the MFH plot, and they hurried the sting because, IMHO, LE believed if they could nab her for the MFH plot and get her in custody, they could lean on her for Kyron's whereabouts. They are not refraining from arresting her out of the goodness of their hearts or, at this point, as a strategic move. They are not arresting her because they don't have grounds to arrest her, IMHO.

The prosecutor taking this before the GJ is a move that serves many masters, IMHO.

If TH did it, and I believe she did, why would she have to be smart and cunning to take him from the school and avoid leaving evidence? No body has been found, so no evidence has been collected yet- there may be plenty at some point. And of course his DNA is all over the truck, house, and her.
No, she didn't have to be smart or cunning. Just evil.

If TH is responsible, the level of pre-meditation required to do this, the amount of planning, the lack of detection, and that Kyron hasn't been found after two months of intensive searching, conveys to me she is smart and cunning on some level. If she's guilty, she's evil, too, but I maintain that it's a mistake to underestimate the intelligence and cunning of the person who abducted Kyron. FWIW, I'm not necessarily referring to intelligence as book smarts, but there is, at minimum, a certain amount of street smarts in play, IMHO.

 

[Calliope]

Lots of inept perps manage to hide bodies so that no one ever finds them. Apparently it's not that hard.

It's not just that.

 

[arielilane]

Yes, she is involved. I never doubted from day one. Her facial expressions and body language told me a sad story.

 

[stmarysmead]

Originally Posted by angelmom

View Post

"But how could she even begin to guess that no one would see her? It's a pretty crappy plan to just HOPE no one sees you.

And then what does she say? She can't just suddenly remember that the appointment is for the next week and march him back into the school. If she says, "Oh we're on our way to an appt." then what does she tell Kyron? There is no appointment! What if he told Kaine? "Hey, Mom took me from school today and told Mrs. Jones I had a doctor appointment but we really just went to the grocery store and the gym!"

There is also a risk that the teacher will vividly remember and be SURE that Terri said she was taking him to the doctor. Obviously that is not the case, or they wouldn't have spent so much time searching in and around the school for a child who wandered away.

There is a risk Kyron would have told someone, anyone, that he had an appointment and would/would not be back later for the talent show. Obviously there has been no witness who could say that for the same reasons.

There is a risk that the teacher could have been unsure and called Terri on her cell (all three of my kids' schools have mine, my DH's, and all 4 grandparents' numbers). Just to double check that she had him. How could Terri even begin to guess that the teacher wouldn't check? I know it was a crazy day but, having taught this age, I would be even more cautious b/c it was abnormal. I would be counting (like the parent volunteer did) regularly and wondering...hmmm...did Terri take him or is he in the gym and hasn't even noticed we came back to the room? ESPECIALLY with a kid who has trouble with directions and might get distracted.

The fact is that somehow Kyron left the school without being seen, but I don't know how anyone could have planned that. That's what makes me lean toward a SO who just happened to spot Kyron on his own for a minute.

This is what keeps me on the fence...I just can't picture any way that it makes sense."

___________

This post reminded me of the case of Amy Milaljevic in Bay Village, Ohio. Amy was contacted well before her abduction by a man who asked her to meet him to choose a gift for her Mother. He claimed to be a co-worker of her Mom and said her Mother was to be promoted. Think of the chance he took that for days Amy would keep his secret...there was no promotion. AS it was, she did confide in another child. But she kept their appointment to "shop."

Amy met him after school across the street from the Bay Village Police Dept....no attempt to choose an out-of-the-way place. Imagine the risk-taker this guy must have been!

Her body was found quite a while later. Many years later it came out he had contacted other little girls, some with unlisted phones. The case was never solved.

Amy was the same age as my daughter and the story and the boldness of the crime terrified me. I've never forgotten her.

Amy Mihaljevic's killer was a bold risk-taker. Called ahead. Picked her up across from the police department. Maybe that added to his sense of empowerment.

I guess that's why I tend to believe that a mind that can conceive of killing a child is so strangely and frighteningly programmed that trying to imagine how normal people might react is futile.

If Terri did this to the child she raised IMO she must have had the confidence and boldness to think she could risk and get away with it. She would have a certain risk-taking mentality. Then I remember the the foolish sex-ting at a time when media and police scrutiny of the whole family was intense. That was "risky" too..as was the cell phone caper.

I can't rule Terri out because the plan was too risky. Amy's killer had a much riskier plan. And he's never been caught.





[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Mihaljevic[/ame]