Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

[GR_Turner]

He probably was not heard arguing with his daughter for nearly an hour earlier that night nor did four witnesses testify to hearing his daughter screaming for her life up until the moment shots were fired.

If the state can't prove that he meant to shoot Reeva then OP's situation is pretty much the same as in that case.

 

[GR_Turner]

No, Mrs. vdM heard Oscar crying like a woman AFTER he shot Reeva, just as the next door neighbors reported and later attempted to demonstrate in court. The fact that they heard this crying shortly after the final shots confirms it was Oscar.

I am not saying Oscar cannot cry like a woman. People's voices can get very distorted by emotion when they are crying or wailing in anguish. However, I find no reason to doubt the testimony of the four witnesses who were unwavering in their assertion that they heard a woman screaming in mortal fear before and during the final shots. The pitch and shrillness of a woman's voice when screaming in fear is much less likely to be confused with a man's voice than when either gender is crying (as in grief-stricken or in emotional pain.)

Have you ever heard a group of young girls screaming at a pool party? I don't think anyone would ever mistake that sound for young boys.

Several witnesses seemed confused about whether to describe what they heard as screaming or "crying"-- it may be a language problem, not sure. Mrs Stipps' housekeeper may well have interpreted Reeva's screams as "cries" or she had the timing wrong, I would need to revisit her testimony.

BIB: No one is suggesting that Reeva screamed and was mistaken for a man!

No, I'm not aware that any witnesses were unclear about describing what their heard. They were clear - the Stipps and Burger/Johnson heard screams - terrified etc. The close neighbours heard cries of distress - as though someone had been shot or was in danger. These are their descriptions. Mrs Stipp said her housekeeper heard female crying and not screaming and it is clear from her affadavit that this was the same sound that the Stipps heard.

The point of all this is not to prove that it was OP they all heard but to point out that if the same sound can be heard as crying and screaming, and that male and female crying can be confused then there is no reason why the male crying heard by the close neighbours can't be the female screaming heard by the distant neighbours.

Add in the phone times - Stipp's 10111 call at 3:17 and Johnson's call to security that put the male crying at the same time as the female screaming and you have very considerable doubt that the 4 screams witnesses really did hear Reeva screaming.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If the state can't prove that he meant to shoot Reeva then OP's situation is pretty much the same as in that case.

Only one question: One bullet or four bullets in the Boschoff case???

 

[Marfa Lights]

My response in bold:

BIB: No one is suggesting that Reeva screamed and was mistaken for a man!

Sorry for any confusion. That's not what I was saying. I wanted to point out that it really is very difficult to confuse the high shrill pitch of a woman screaming for her life with that of a man, even under the same kind of fearful circumstances. (Are there any opera buffs on here who could point us to some male sopranos who perhaps can approximate this pitch?)

No, I'm not aware that any witnesses were unclear about describing what their heard. They were clear - the Stipps and Burger/Johnson heard screams - terrified etc. The close neighbours heard cries of distress - as though someone had been shot or was in danger. These are their descriptions. Mrs Stipp said her housekeeper heard female crying and not screaming and it is clear from her affadavit that this was the same sound that the Stipps heard.

I may be remembering Nel and Roux struggling to clarify the terminology of the witnesses. I have not been able to find a copy of the Stipps' housekeeper's affidavit. Does anyone happen to have a link to her affidavit (in English?) or a You Tube reference for the courtroom testimony or cross examination on that?

The point of all this is not to prove that it was OP they all heard but to point out that if the same sound can be heard as crying and screaming, and that male and female crying can be confused then there is no reason why the male crying heard by the close neighbours can't be the female screaming heard by the distant neighbours.

Screaming by distant neighbors was heard before and during final shots. Close neighbors heard Oscar crying after the final shots. I don't know what the Stipps housekeeper heard because she did not testify and I have not read her affidavit.

Add in the phone times - Stipp's 10111 call at 3:17 and Johnson's call to security that put the male crying at the same time as the female screaming and you have very considerable doubt that the 4 screams witnesses really did hear Reeva screaming.

No, no doubt at all. They heard the woman's screams before and during the final shots. This was placed around 3:15 if I recall correctly..

 

[Marfa Lights]

If the state can't prove that he meant to shoot Reeva then OP's situation is pretty much the same as in that case.

If the judge ignores the testimony of four neighbors that clearly heard the victim screaming before and during the final shots, then the state can't prove anything regardless. It really gets down to whether or not you believe Oscar and Roux that he screamed like a woman in mortal fear of her life right before and as he was firing the final shots and that, as Oscar testified, Reeva never uttered a sound after she asked him if he was unable to sleep when he got up to "bring the fans in."

Oh yeah, the fans...

 

[GR_Turner]

My response in bold:

Have you heard a woman screaming for her life? Or a man wailing in a high pitch in severe distress? I don't think you can say anything about how you'd distinguish between 2 sounds you haven't heard.

I don't think they struggled with crying or screaming at all. Otherwise r elements perhaps. The affidavit is quoted in the defense heads and Mrs stipp.


No the far neighbours heard screaming after the shots. Remember the stipps heard 2 sets of shots. Only the state make the second shots the real ones.

So you are just ignoring the other phone times that put the second bangs at 3:17? Stippevidence put them at 3:15 And 3:17,and Johnson at 3:17. Look at the states and defenses heads.

 

[GR_Turner]

If the judge ignores the testimony of four neighbors that clearly heard the victim screaming before and during the final shots, then the state can't prove anything regardless. It really gets down to whether or not you believe Oscar and Roux that he screamed like a woman in mortal fear of her life right before and as he was firing the final shots and that, as Oscar testified, Reeva never uttered a sound after she asked him if he was unable to sleep when he got up to "bring the fans in."

Oh yeah, the fans...

Look at the actual evidence. Repeating endlessly that the screams witnesses can't be wrong proves nothing based as it is on opinion only. The defense claims are backed up by evidence.

 

[Colin de France]

Look at the actual evidence. Repeating endlessly that the screams witnesses can't be wrong proves nothing based as it is on opinion only. The defense claims are backed up by evidence.

.......i see you're being selective again with what evidence you would like to believe which is now getting very repetitive....how about giving us a coherent reason why he would want to bring the fan in during the middle of the night....for an example...or as one of your groupies mentioned why venture down the hall when it was far safer to of stayed in the bedroom...or why didn't Reeva simply leave the bedroom go downstairs and out......why not use the alarm, that was what it was there for ....did Reeva telephone the police as asked for .....

 

[GR_Turner]

.......i see you're being selective again with what evidence you would like to believe which is now getting very repetitive....how about giving us a coherent reason why he would want to bring the fan in during the middle of the night....for an example...or as one of your groupies mentioned why venture down the hall when it was far safer to of stayed in the bedroom...or why didn't Reeva simply leave the bedroom go downstairs and out......

No I am talking about evidence and you are talking about speculation. I ask Marfa why her opinion accounts for more than evidence. You are asking me to speculate. Not the same thing at all.

By the way, all this sniping that's been going on of late is a bit tedious. Perhaps we could all stick to discussing the trial...?

 

[Colin de France]

No I am talking about evidence and you are talking about speculation. I ask Marfa why her opinion accounts for more than evidence. You are asking me to speculate. Not the same thing at all.

By the way, all this sniping that's been going on of late is tedious. Perhaps we could all stick to discussing the trial...

......why don't you want to awnser my questions....you have your position that's fine but don't try to avoid awnsering questions because they don't suit your plan ......I am going to re-phrase it...........i see you're being selective again with what questions you would like to awnser....how about giving us a coherent reason why he would want to bring the fan in during the middle of the night......or as one of your groupies mentioned why venture down the hall when it was far safer to of stayed in the bedroom...or why didn't Reeva simply leave the bedroom go downstairs and out......why not use the alarm, that was what it was there for ....did Reeva telephone the police as asked for .....and i'm just getting going.....

 

[GR_Turner]

....it's a mixture of the two.....why don't you want to awnser my questions....you have your position that's fine but don't try to avoid awnsering questions because they don't suit your plan ......

This is what I mean by sniping. I have no plan as you put it.

It's just speculation to ask why he did what he did or why he didn't do something else. We can't know so what's the point of arguing about it. I don't expect that people all act the same, all act sensibly or carefully when thinking they are in danger. Your question seems to suggest that in fact we should be able to say exactly what he should have done and therefore decide whether he is telling the truth. That just doesn't make sense.

 

[Colin de France]

This is what I mean by sniping. I have no plan as you put it.

It's just speculation to ask why he did what he did or didn't do something else. We can't know so what's the point of arguing about it. I don't expect that people all act the same, all act sensibly or carefully when thinking they are in danger. Your question seems to suggest that in fact we should be able to say exactly what he should have done and therefore decide whether he is telling the truth. That just doesn't make sense.

....no...these are valid questions and what they do is to show how incoherent is his version...the fact that you don't wish to enter into discussion shows that you aren't serious and avoiding questions that disturb your theory......no one for the moment has given any reason why during the middle of the night he would want to bring the fan in.....the coincidence that it was that night in particular that he slept on the other side of the bed.....how useful...it just goes on.......but i am disapointed in your reluctance to enter into discussion about the multiple incoherencies in his declaration.....

 

[GR_Turner]

....no...these are valid questions and what they do is to show how incoherent is his version...the fact that you don't wish to enter into discussion shows that you aren't serious and avoiding questions that disturb your theory......no one for the moment has given any reason why during the middle of the night he would want to bring the fan in.....the coincidence that it was that night in particular that he slept on the other side of the bed.....how useful...it just goes on.......but i am disapointed in your reluctance to enter into discussion about the multiple incoherencies in his declaration.....

It's not incoherent. He explained why he brought the fans in. And why he was sleeping on the wrong side of the bed.

 

[GR_Turner]

....no...these are valid questions and what they do is to show how incoherent is his version...the fact that you don't wish to enter into discussion shows that you aren't serious and avoiding questions that disturb your theory......no one for the moment has given any reason why during the middle of the night he would want to bring the fan in.....the coincidence that it was that night in particular that he slept on the other side of the bed.....how useful...it just goes on.......but i am disapointed in your reluctance to enter into discussion about the multiple incoherencies in his declaration.....

It's not incoherent. He explained why he brought the fans in. And why he was sleeping on the wrong side of the bed.

 

[aftermath]

......why don't you want to awnser my questions....you have your position that's fine but don't try to avoid awnsering questions because they don't suit your plan ......I am going to re-phrase it...........i see you're being selective again with what questions you would like to awnser....how about giving us a coherent reason why he would want to bring the fan in during the middle of the night......or as one of your groupies mentioned why venture down the hall when it was far safer to of stayed in the bedroom...or why didn't Reeva simply leave the bedroom go downstairs and out......why not use the alarm, that was what it was there for ....did Reeva telephone the police as asked for .....and i'm just getting going.....

Fan comes in because it's plugged in inside and patio doors need to be shut and locked and it was hot so he wanted a fan on in his room.

He went down the hall because - like many others- human beings are fallible and don't always make the best choices in panic-crisis situations. Eg why did visagie even take a shot at the car that was being driven away? The better option was to report the theft of the vehicle. Why did Mdunge shoot before establishing that the person he was shooting at was an intruder and not his pregnant wife?

 

[Colin de France]

It's not incoherent. He explained why he brought the fans in. And why he was sleeping on the wrong side of the bed.

...but i'm asking you not him......you believe his version of events and i'm showing you just how incoherent they all are, one after the other......

 

[Colin de France]

Fan comes in because it's plugged in inside and patio doors need to be shut and locked and it was hot so he wanted a fan on in his room.

He went down the hall because - like many others- human beings are fallible and don't always make the best choices in panic-crisis situations. Eg why did visagie even take a shot at the car that was being driven away? The better option was to report the theft of the vehicle. Why did Mdunge shoot before establishing that the person he was shooting at was an intruder and not his pregnant wife?

......but wasn't the fan cable not long enough to of been used on the patio ?.......

 

[GR_Turner]

...but i'm asking you not him......you believe his version of events and i'm showing you just how incoherent they all are, one after the other......

But you'll just say they make no sense to you and I'll say they do make sense to me. Neither of our opinions is right as such. They are just our opinions.

But since you think it would help, aftermath has explained about the fan. What else?

 

[GR_Turner]

......but wasn't the fan cable not long enough to of been used on the patio ?.......

This wasn't proven. Nel speculated that it wasn't long enough though I don't think it was that it wouldnt stretch to the balcony. Op said it was. The cable wasnt produced in court. An unsubstantiated allegation therefore.

 

[Colin de France]

But you'll just say they make no sense to you and I'll say they do make sense to me. Neither of our opinions is right as such. They are just our opinions.

But since you think it would help, aftermath has explained about the fan. What else?

........i asked you the question and aftermath replied, no, aftermath hasn't explained anything about the fan, in fact she's wrong.......i'm still waiting to see how you can explain the number of incoherencies in his version....which i get the impression you are trying to avoid discussing.....this a discussion forum after all ...