Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

[GR_Turner]

Imagine "pushing" a DD prosecution when the police find Reeva with her head blown apart, the weapon lying on the floor and no one else at the scene!

Remember the Visagie case. And the pastor who shot his pregnant wife. And the woman who shot her husband twice while he was in the garden (he lived though). All must have involved terrible injuries to the victim and in one case there was no other witness. The result: between them, 2 no prosecutions and 1 CH plea bargain. I would expect the state to do their job properly and get their facts straight before ploughing on with a DD accusation.

 

[GR_Turner]

It's from the Amanda Knox playbook

Of course the defence couldn't really offer any such evidence at trial - so its in the realm of wild speculation

The reality rather goes in the other direction

The defence tampered with key evidence from which no prosecution followed.

Key police officers seemed to have been rather less the thorough

The state wanted the court to accept that the scene was as shown in the photos. The defense demonstrated that there was doubt about who arrived first at the scene and that van Rensberg was either mistaken or lying about having Botha with him when he went upstairs at first. The state could have called all the relevant police witnesses to clear this up but didn't. There was also the evidence of another photographer and policeman being there at the same time as van Staden was taking his crime scene photos, something he denied. It isn't wildly speculative to say that the police didn't demonstrate to the court that they protected the scene prior to the photos.

If the state could have prosecuted individuals for tampering with key evidence and didn't, whose fault is that?

 

[Marfa Lights]

<Snipped>

She was happy to say the screaming lasted a few seconds after the last bang until Roux told her it couldn't have been Reeva if the screams came after the last shot - then Burger said the screams faded away after the last shot.

She said the screams were heard before, during, and then immediately faded away after the last shot. IIRC Roux also previously claimed the head shot came first and then, of course, Oscar claimed Reeva never screamed at all... So who ya gonna believe?

 

[GR_Turner]

<Snipped>

She said the screams were heard before, during, and then immediately faded away after the last shot. IIRC Roux also previously claimed the head shot came first and then, of course, Oscar claimed Reeva never screamed at all... So who ya gonna believe?

A few seconds after is impossible no matter which shot killed. That's the point. 'A few seconds after' became 'faded away' to make the state's version possible. But I already said this.

No I don't think she screamed. It's perfectly possible that everyone heard OP and I have heard no evidence that it's not possible for a man crying out in a high pitch to be mistaken for a woman. Yet I have heard evidence both that female crying was heard at the same time as female screaming and that OP crying was mistaken for female crying.

 

[soozieqtips]

A few seconds after is impossible no matter which shot killed. That's the point. 'A few seconds after' became 'faded away' to make the state's version possible. But I already said this.

No I don't think she screamed. It's perfectly possible that everyone heard OP and I have heard no evidence that it's not possible for a man crying out in a high pitch to be mistaken for a woman. Yet I have heard evidence both that female crying was heard at the same time as female screaming and that OP crying was mistaken for female crying.

BIB - shame then that Roux didn't produce the evidence of OP screaming like a woman (like he promised). Obviously his "evidence" proved that OP didn't scream like a woman, otherwise he'd have produced it - and he didn't.

 

[Trotterly]

How did Burger "alter" her evidence to aid the state? Does adding more descriptive detail (i.e. describing the woman's screams as "blood-curdling") during testimony qualify as altering evidence (I presume you refer to her police statement)?

Shall we talk about OP's evidence and how it differed from his bail application?

What Burger absolutely believed in was what she clearly heard with her own two ears which was substantiated by what her husband also heard that night.

Re: Estelle van der Mewe-- I just listened to her testimony again. She said she was awakened around 1:56 a.m. by sounds of a couple arguing which continued for about an hour. Although she could not distinguish what they were saying or even what language they were speaking, she says she heard the irritating sounds of a woman's voice. Around 3:00 she was disturbed again by the sound of four gunshots. Her husband got up to investigate and confirmed those were gunshots they heard. He got up and looked out their window but could not see anything and went back to bed. Then they began to hear a commotion outside and her husband called security. She says it was shortly after that that they heard someone crying out loud and her husband told her it was Oscar crying. She said it sounded like a woman crying to her. So, while some witnesses testified Oscar's crying can sound like a woman crying, it is important to place this event correctly in the timeline.

I am not sure if this is the latest version of Mr. Fossil's timeline spreadsheet, but it's extremely helpful. I can't help but wonder why the state never produced any kind of similar timeline analysis:

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx...=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AP15bEJh--E96sg

1. Just after the event she noted that she heard "4 or 5" shots. Then she changed it when she realised there were only 4 shots and tried to garnish her "evidence" with some credibility by making herself into some sort of expert at remembering shots thanks to her musical background. (*wince*)

2. To try to cover why she jumped to the conclusion OP had murdered after being told one sentence by her husband she made screams into "blood curdling" screams (or whatever dramatic term she used)

3. When she realised that OP's "helps" were looking like supporting OP's version she said they were mocking.

4. She lied to help the state's case when she testified that she was able to hear and recall (presumably with the help of her musical training) sounds in her sleep.

Let's not forget Burger said she was "convinced" it was a home invasion. She obviously likes to jump in with both feet without any room for doubt eh? Most people would say it sounded like a home invasion. She was wrong.

 

[Trotterly]

BIB - shame then that Roux didn't produce the evidence of OP screaming like a woman (like he promised). Obviously his "evidence" proved that OP didn't scream like a woman, otherwise he'd have produced it - and he didn't.

The state didn't prove it was Reeva's voice either.

I think Roux breaking his promise probably means something to a child who doesn't get their promised ice cream but it means squat in the courtroom.

 

[soozieqtips]

The state didn't prove it was Reeva's voice either.

I think Roux breaking his promise probably means something to a child who doesn't get their promised ice cream but it means squat in the courtroom.

BIB - Did I say it did mean squat in the courtroom? I did not. The fact is that Roux made a big deal of how he would produce evidence that proved without doubt that OP screamed like a woman. The tests were performed, and surprise surprise, he failed to produce the evidence, meaning he could not prove OP screamed like a woman. Informing me that it means "squat" in the courtroom doesn't change that the reason Roux couldn't produce what he promised... was because he knew OP didn't sound like a woman!

 

[lithgow1]

BIB - Did I say it did mean squat in the courtroom? I did not. The fact is that Roux made a big deal of how he would produce evidence that proved without doubt that OP screamed like a woman. The tests were performed, and surprise surprise, he failed to produce the evidence, meaning he could not prove OP screamed like a woman. Informing me that it means "squat" in the courtroom doesn't change that the reason Roux couldn't produce what he promised... was because he knew OP didn't sound like a woman!

And let`s not forget the video of the events which never materialised, or the social worker woman who was brought in to testify that he was really really upset and wasn`t acting, or the visibility test in OP`s bedroom performed by a middle aged man who used `my eyes` as his measuring instrument, or the photographic evidence that used a shorter person than OP. I guess when you rely on evidence so much you will accept anything, as long as it is said within the confines of a courthouse and favours the defence. Pathologist evidence that RS would have screamed, even involuntarily, when her hip was shot to pieces, along with ballistics evidence that the hip shot came first? Nah, not so much.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The state didn't prove it was Reeva's voice either.

I think Roux breaking his promise probably means something to a child who doesn't get their promised ice cream but it means squat in the courtroom.

bbm
Sorry, but Reeva herself wasn't able to scream anymore. Why let another woman scream who isn't in mortal terror?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

A few seconds after is impossible no matter which shot killed. That's the point. 'A few seconds after' became 'faded away' to make the state's version possible. But I already said this.

No I don't think she screamed. It's perfectly possible that everyone heard OP and I have heard no evidence that it's not possible for a man crying out in a high pitch to be mistaken for a woman. Yet I have heard evidence both that female crying was heard at the same time as female screaming and that OP crying was mistaken for female crying.

No victim would NOT scream, I'm convinced. Mortal agony is the worst that can happen to a person other than the death itself, I would think.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...le-phones-seized-in-Oscar-Pistorius-case.html

Another example of how even the police worried that members of the police force might have been profiting from Pistorius's arrest/ abusing their position of authority for their own amusement. .

Has the same ever interested in another murder trial concerning cooperation media and police?

 

[Trotterly]

BIB - Did I say it did mean squat in the courtroom? I did not. The fact is that Roux made a big deal of how he would produce evidence that proved without doubt that OP screamed like a woman. The tests were performed, and surprise surprise, he failed to produce the evidence, meaning he could not prove OP screamed like a woman. Informing me that it means "squat" in the courtroom doesn't change that the reason Roux couldn't produce what he promised... was because he knew OP didn't sound like a woman!

You seem to be saying it does mean nothing and then that it doesn't??

Roux may not have known OP sounds like a woman but Mr VDM did so why risk a demonstration when regardless of what OP sounded like you would say it was nothing like a woman. But that does not matter does it, because all that matters is what the witnesses thought they heard.

 

[Trotterly]

No victim would NOT scream, I'm convinced. Mortal agony is the worst that can happen to a person other than the death itself, I would think.

Here it is important to distinguish between screaming well before the shooting and screaming during.

How can anyone say with any certainty that someone will start screaming within a second or so of being shot? The pathologist reported that the injury would have been a very painful one and if Reeva had remained conscious for longer she would almost certainly have screamed. But from the first to last shot could have been only a second and Reeva may have hardly registered the pain at all before dying.

I don't have the link but there was previous info from a ballistics guy who said that screaming was not the norm at all and that many people when shot do not even scream at all and not just a second afterwards.

The pathologist may have been an expert in deciding on the extent of injuries but I doubt he had much evidence of how people react in the second or two just after being shot.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Here it is important to distinguish between screaming well before the shooting and screaming during.

How can anyone say with any certainty that someone will start screaming within a second or so of being shot? The pathologist reported that the injury would have been a very painful one and if Reeva had remained conscious for longer she would almost certainly have screamed. But from the first to last shot could have been only a second and Reeva may have hardly registered the pain at all before dying.

I don't have the link but there was previous info from a ballistics guy who said that screaming was not the norm at all and that many people when shot do not even scream at all and not just a second afterwards.

The pathologist may have been an expert in deciding on the extent of injuries but I doubt he had much evidence of how people react in the second or two just after being shot.

Either 1. OP has shot out of the window before the death shots or 2. Reeva could see him with his gun through a crack in the door or 3. Reeva heard the click of the gun or 4. OP announced with words that he would shoot now.
Please, choose something (multiple choice!!).
I'm sure Reeva knew early enough of the mortal danger to scream shrilly until she was dead. IMO

 

[soozieqtips]

Trotterly, now you are rubbishing claims that Reeva could possibly have screamed after the first shot to the hip because it doesn't fit with your OP is "innocent" belief?

The pathologist who performed the autopsy on Steenkamp's body said it would have been "abnormal" for her not to scream from some of her injuries.

A police ballistics expert concluded that the first shot Pistorius fired through a toilet door hit Steenkamp in the hip and caused her to collapse, but didn't immediately kill her. The second shot missed.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/23/oscar-pistorius-trial-murdered-reeva-steenkamp

Screaming would have been an involuntary act after being shot in the hip. It would have been abnormal not to scream out at the pain. But you've decided (because OP is innocent) that it didn't happen... despite reports to the contrary?? Hmm. The second shot missed, which gave Reeva time to register the pain before being blasted to death by her killer. Yet you still don't want to believe Reeva could have screamed out in pain, because it doesn't fit your theory. You seem to be altering evidence to back up your own beliefs.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Here it is important to distinguish between screaming well before the shooting and screaming during.

How can anyone say with any certainty that someone will start screaming within a second or so of being shot? The pathologist reported that the injury would have been a very painful one and if Reeva had remained conscious for longer she would almost certainly have screamed. But from the first to last shot could have been only a second and Reeva may have hardly registered the pain at all before dying.

I don't have the link but there was previous info from a ballistics guy who said that screaming was not the norm at all and that many people when shot do not even scream at all and not just a second afterwards.

The pathologist may have been an expert in deciding on the extent of injuries but I doubt he had much evidence of how people react in the second or two just after being shot.

This kind of speculation is totally useless.

Reeva, as four witnesses all testified under oath, was already screaming in mortal fear BEFORE AND DURING the final shots. She is screaming in fear, not pain. Who is to say if she were in mid-scream at the time of the final head shot, that this scream could not have been heard simultaneously with the head shot and faded away immediately afterward? All Saayman said was that she would have taken no more than a few breaths after the head shot.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbu...dying-the-shortcuts-our-brain-takes-1.3139836

Jumping to conclusions? Studying the shortcuts our brain takes

Her research also indicates that people entrenched in the francophone culture in Canada were far more forgiving with violating schemas.

"For instance, when I say 'mechanic' you get an idea of what a mechanic looks like. If I say the mechanic dropped the wrench and she bent down to pick it up ... there's a slow-down effect of the information and processing. When we violate [the schema] our brain slows down. It chugs a little bit."

Maybe witnesses out of the francophone culture of Canada would be better than the rest? :thinking:

 

[lithgow1]

Here it is important to distinguish between screaming well before the shooting and screaming during.

How can anyone say with any certainty that someone will start screaming within a second or so of being shot? The pathologist reported that the injury would have been a very painful one and if Reeva had remained conscious for longer she would almost certainly have screamed. But from the first to last shot could have been only a second and Reeva may have hardly registered the pain at all before dying.

I don't have the link but there was previous info from a ballistics guy who said that screaming was not the norm at all and that many people when shot do not even scream at all and not just a second afterwards.

The pathologist may have been an expert in deciding on the extent of injuries but I doubt he had much evidence of how people react in the second or two just after being shot.

Just a second for four shots, including taking the time to adjust aim. How did you work out that time frame? In other words, where`s the evidence, as introduced in court, for that assertion/assumption.

 

[aftermath]

Up

This kind of speculation is totally useless.

Reeva, as four witnesses all testified under oath, was already screaming in mortal fear BEFORE AND DURING the final shots. She is screaming in fear, not pain. Who is to say if she were in mid-scream at the time of the final head shot, that this scream could not have been heard simultaneously with the head shot and faded away immediately afterward? All Saayman said was that she would have taken no more than a few breaths after the head shot.

What were the first bangs before the scream and what time did the final bangs happen though?