Do you think the parents were involved?

[txsvicki]

Someone mentioned Sharon Rocha. I remember reading that she lay in the floor and cried all day on Mother's Day. It's just such a difference between that and two people going jogging every morning at sunrise. To be so health conscious so soon in comparison to leaving children alone with no baby monitor after one was said to be screaming, crying, and getting a complaint from a fellow vacationer shortly before Madeline disappeared is not very balanced.

 

[Lynn-ann]

I do agree that it does seem incongruous that the McCann's were able to smile so readily and so soon after little Madeleine disappeared but grief is an unpredictable and totally subjective roller coaster ride which one cannot control. Grief is also a very lonely place to be and it ravaged our extremely loving and close family when my youngest sister died of a brain tumour back in 1990.
We all tried to comfort and support one another but it was such a harrowing time, that we floundered around helplessly because we were all experiencing the varying facets and degrees of grief at different times. Some of us wanting to talk about her, others not able to etc. Denial, anger, despair, guilt and other raw, agonizing emotions. It was devastating and changed us all forever and can still surface out of the blue and tear me apart even after all this time.

It could well be that the McCann's are in overwhelming denial as a result of the guilt they surely must feel for leaving the children alone. The fact that they many times seem to try and justify that fact makes me think they are having a more difficult time with their grieving process regardless of whether they are innnocent or guilty in Maddie's disappearance. It would certainly be a terrible thing to have to admit to yourself, let alone have to live with.

I am not a psychologist or mental health expert to speak with any authority as such but those are my thoughts on the issue anyway.

 

[ny_]

Philamena, my condolences on your mom, Lynn Ann, condolences on your sister.

As Texana points out, there's a huge difference between losing those we care about, yet knowing what happened to them and thinking a child has been abducted by a pedophile. You both knew what had happened to your mom & sister respectively. You knew they weren't being abused & tormented by a pedophile. The McCanns claim they think their daughter was abducted by a pedophile ring. Those smiles don't make sense in light of what they supposdedly think happened to their daughter. And it's not just the odd smile here & there where the camera happens to catch them off guard. They smile for photo ops like the t shirt photo, the hand shaking photo & the interview photo. Maybe they've been medicated to help them cope, maybe it's a nervous reaction.

But when you combine it with the blithe tone of Gerry McCanns blog (you can see the entries Calikid's posted here at http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53316&page=2) and the way they get defensive/show emotion when anyone brings up their leaving the kids alone and/or even the mere possibility they may have had something to do with it, something isn't adding up right IMHO. If you want to see an interview/read newspaper quotes re: their reaction to people bringing up that they left the kids alone, there are a couple of links in this post (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1685325&postcount=84)

Now this is not evidence. We can't charge them for it. But it gives me some very uneasy feelings about their role in things. I hope I'm wrong. Believe me, I'd never be so happy to be wrong in my life because then there'd at least be a possibility she could be alive.

 

[Rino]

I personally find the McCanns' smile to be quite normal, because I think they came to terms with their child's accidental death, and having grieved for her, are now in the process of moving on with their lives, with only now the occasional mourning and sadness anyone feels rightly after losing a loved one.

I agre with you on this point. They have accepted and have the knowledge the she in not being harmed or waiting for them to come to her.

Bit off topic, but I hope the McCanns are the guilty parties. The only way Maddie did not suffer the fright at being taken, pain or the terror that would be associated with an abduction - would be accidental at the hands of her parents. Not all families are perfect, but in this scenario it is likely she never knew a moment of fear, simply Mom or Dad were angry - then nothing.

 

[philamena]

Philamena, my condolences on your mom, Lynn Ann, condolences on your sister.

ny_,
Thanks for your thoughfulness.

 

[SleuthMom]

Texana:

I personally find the McCanns' smile to be quite normal, because I think they came to terms with their child's accidental death, and having grieved for her, are now in the process of moving on with their lives, with only now the occasional mourning and sadness anyone feels rightly after losing a loved one.

I was talking about the case with my husband over dinner (he is not involved in the case as much) so I asked him what he thinks about the kind of "normal" behavior of the Mc Canns, very "cool" about the disappearance of their daughter which seems unusual in this kind of situation and he said almost what you said. "Maybe the girl died accidentally and because they did not directly killed her, they are right when they said they did not hurt her and the mourning have passed and they are moving on."

 

[Lynn-ann]

Thankyou for your kind thoughts and condolences, ny.

Your comments got me thinking and with all I've been reading (and looking at...photos etc) you certainly do make valid points.

From all that I've read (and looked at...photos etc.) there are definitely sufficient doubts and questions marks concerning the McCann's and their behavior regarding poor Maddie's disappearance to warrant suspicion.

That being said, I remember following the Lindy Chamberlain case all those years ago, where she claimed a dingo took her little girl, Azaria. I was staunchly in the "guilty" camp, until I read all the court transcripts and realised what a beat up it all was and that had I been on the jury I could not have convicted her in good conscience because it wasn't proved to me that she was guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Lindy never wavered from her statement that Azaria was wearing a matinee jacket over her jump suit. She was called a liar over this. It was found years later near Ayers Rock. Then there was the DNA farce concerning foetal blood evidence in the car which turned out to be rust-proofing or some such. She was released from jail but never exonerated, only given a pardon from the Northern Territory govt. (Most likely to avoid a massive law suit). Lindy was constantly criticised for not showing any emotion and I never ever saw her smile during the whole legal process, poor woman.

That is why I am leery of outright condemning the McCann's until all the true facts are in but that doesn't mean I don't think they certainly do have a case to answer for.

 

[AfterMidnight]

Nice post, Lynn-Ann. You seemed to have learned not to condemn with little or no proof. A very valuable lesson indeed. The Chamberlain case reminds me of this one. Such a mob howling for blood. The truth didn't stand a chance. Thanks again for a thoughtful post.

 

[Lynn-ann]

Thankyou, AfterMidnight.

Just to add that there are many people who still do consider that Lindy is guilty, regardless of truth, evidence and court transcripts etc. Very sad.

 

[april4sky]

Thankyou, AfterMidnight.

Just to add that there are many people who still do consider that Lindy is guilty, regardless of truth, evidence and court transcripts etc. Very sad.

It's so sad that Lindy is still suffering. And just goes to show what damage can be done by rumors and smears. And why I wish we weren't so ready to believe the worst without proof.
We move on to the next story...but anyone on the receiving end of such treatment never will.
Lindy is not just living with what happened to her, she's also grieving for her little daughter.

 

[AfterMidnight]

I believe anyone who read about the Chamberlain case, with an open mind and a need for truth, came away changed - not so quick to judge.

I forget the name of the book about the case, but if anyone remembers, perhaps I could recommend reading it? It does have to do with this case because Lindy's life was ruined by lies, pseudo science, and the howling of the mob. She spent years in prison because of blindness and ignorance. I guess I hate that more than anything else. Let's hope it can be avoided in the McCann case by sticking to hard, cold, facts, leaving the emotionalism to Ann Landers, and the theatrics to the tabloids and the stage.

 

[nicola]

Texana: I was talking about the case with my husband over dinner (he is not involved in the case as much) so I asked him what he thinks about the kind of "normal" behavior of the Mc Canns, very "cool" about the disappearance of their daughter which seems unusual in this kind of situation and he said almost what you said. "Maybe the girl died accidentally and because they did not directly killed her, they are right when they said they did not hurt her and the mourning have passed and they are moving on."

What is 'normal' for someone in a situation like this? Ive followed this case from the start and to me the McCanns seem to be traumatised by what has happened. They are trying so hard to keep this case in the publics mind, so that people do not forget about Maddeline. I think that although Gerry seems to be more composed than Kate the stress is starting to show on his face aswell. They both have to try and create an 'air of normality' as much as they can for thier twins, who are still with them. Although I do not think that they had anything to do with killing Madeline I do think of them as partly responsable for what happened because they chose to lave the children alone even though the complex offered a babysitting service. I think that as parents they will never forgive themselves for leaving their children alone, the guilt associated with that is enough for them to deal with without being accused of killing her by the press.

Whatever happened to innocent till proven guilty? This seems to be trial by media. With the Portugeese media the prosecution and the British media the defense.

:twocents:

 

[colomom]

What is 'normal' for someone in a situation like this? Ive followed this case from the start and to me the McCanns seem to be traumatised by what has happened. They are trying so hard to keep this case in the publics mind, so that people do not forget about Maddeline. I think that although Gerry seems to be more composed than Kate the stress is starting to show on his face aswell. They both have to try and create an 'air of normality' as much as they can for thier twins, who are still with them. Although I do not think that they had anything to do with killing Madeline I do think of them as partly responsable for what happened because they chose to lave the children alone even though the complex offered a babysitting service. I think that as parents they will never forgive themselves for leaving their children alone, the guilt associated with that is enough for them to deal with without being accused of killing her by the press.

Whatever happened to innocent till proven guilty? This seems to be trial by media. With the Portugeese media the prosecution and the British media the defense.

:twocents:

Thank you very much for posting nicola....

I know where you are coming from, I have seen the same feelings expressed in many forums around the globe. There is definitely a division when it comes to this case. As far as a "trial" by the media....I have seen the British media show alot of restraint (some say they were muzzled) but it has only been recently that they have started to express doubts about the McCann's version of events. True, the bloggers and forums have been more critical from early on.

The McCanns, if innocent, have been "victims" for sure. I, for one, will be the first to beg forgiveness and try to help them recover their lives if at all possible. However, if they are not, and I have a difficult time thinking that all these "gut instincts" are wrong, so many people have questioned so many things....where is this coming from? Mass hysteria? Somehow I doubt that since we are all so far apart from one another.

Remember, the most shocking crimes of our lifetimes have involved some very cunning and devious persons. Humans are capable of incredible lies and others are capable of believing the lies. Humans are also capable of being pulled into a media "lie" and are capable of mass hysteria as well.

So, we have to try our hardest to be objective, to try and see all sides, including those that may be abhorrent to our psyche. We have to approach life with an open mind so that we are not easily swayed.

Fight for what you believe!! Study, present your arguments, show others the reasons for your convictions....persuade them.

Keep posting, present your arguments....convince us that we should consider a different opinion....

At this point that is all we can do.....

Welcome aboard....we are all happy to see you!

 

[philamena]

What is 'normal' for someone in a situation like this? Ive followed this case from the start and to me the McCanns seem to be traumatised by what has happened. They are trying so hard to keep this case in the publics mind, so that people do not forget about Maddeline. I think that although Gerry seems to be more composed than Kate the stress is starting to show on his face aswell. They both have to try and create an 'air of normality' as much as they can for thier twins, who are still with them. Although I do not think that they had anything to do with killing Madeline I do think of them as partly responsable for what happened because they chose to lave the children alone even though the complex offered a babysitting service. I think that as parents they will never forgive themselves for leaving their children alone, the guilt associated with that is enough for them to deal with without being accused of killing her by the press.

Whatever happened to innocent till proven guilty? This seems to be trial by media. With the Portugeese media the prosecution and the British media the defense.

:twocents:

nicola.
What a nice post!
You'll most likely find that innocent until proven guilty isn't the opinion of the masses where Maddie's disappearance is concerned.

 

[Brefie]

What is 'normal' for someone in a situation like this? Ive followed this case from the start and to me the McCanns seem to be traumatised by what has happened. They are trying so hard to keep this case in the publics mind, so that people do not forget about Maddeline. I think that although Gerry seems to be more composed than Kate the stress is starting to show on his face aswell. They both have to try and create an 'air of normality' as much as they can for thier twins, who are still with them. Although I do not think that they had anything to do with killing Madeline I do think of them as partly responsable for what happened because they chose to lave the children alone even though the complex offered a babysitting service. I think that as parents they will never forgive themselves for leaving their children alone, the guilt associated with that is enough for them to deal with without being accused of killing her by the press.

Whatever happened to innocent till proven guilty? This seems to be trial by media. With the Portugeese media the prosecution and the British media the defense.

:twocents:

Could not agree more!

 

[Texana]

I find the idea that the parents are involved to be a tough one to swallow, but at the same time, there are difficulties with the abductor theory making sense (we can leave out for the time being any reported forensic evidence reportedly found.)

1) The window of time is so short. Gerry says that when he checked on the children at 9:05, the abductor must have already been present and hiding in the other room. This means that if someone was in the room with Madeleine, he/she had to immediately hide in the other room soundlessly as Gerry entered. However, if the abductor had entered by the window, Gerry would have noticed. The window was reportedly tampered with from the inside, and Gerry believes the abductor left with Madeleine through the window. However, why leave through the window (which would look odd to the occasional passerby, and there were those such as Jeremy Wilkins out and about.) when the abductor entered through the door?

2) Matthew Oldfield checked on the children at 9:30, but did not actually see the children. He reportedly saw a light on. However, he did not see anyone nor did he comment upon the windows being open at that time.

3) Kate returned to check at 10:05, approximately. That gives the abductor two thirty minute or so windows of time to leave with Madeleine--with other members of the Tapas 9 also moving about checking on their children.

That's a very small window of time, and as well, the window shutter issue is troubling. The windows did not show damage from the outside. But why would someone open the windows at all, from the inside? Why crawl through a window with a sleeping or sleepy child?

The evidence presented for Madeleine being abducted so far, is a) Cuddle Cat being placed on a high shelf, b) Window shutters open and c) Madeleine, of course, is gone.

The only argument I have seen presented so far for the parents not being involved is, if I understand this correctly, the parents were nice people with professional careers on vacation with their children and they are obviously suffering with grief now.

That seems to me to be far more feeling or emotion based than my considering the parents might be involved. I find it illogical that two doctors, both of whom would have had some first-hand experience with children's injuries during their medical training, would consider it safe to leave their children alone unless they were sure the children were sleeping.

If the children were given something to assure they were sleeping, it is not inconceivable that something might have gone horribly wrong.

I don't see anything more illogical in that scenario than in assuming that an abductor managed to perfectly time an abduction in less than thirty minutes, coming in through an unlocked door and exiting through a window carrying a sleeping child.

So far, how the parents have acted afterwards seems to back up Scenario B far more than Scenario A, with the kidnapper. When enough evidence comes in that the parents can't possibly have been involved or something truly conclusive shows up from an abductor, then I can abandon Scenario B, logically. (And to me, "it must have been planted" is not conclusive.)

That's how I think. For me, it's not some knee jerk need to see the parents punished or emotional reaction that they must have be guilty of something besides a poor choice. I'd really like to be convinced that the abductor scenario is truthful, but it's going to take more than just a "you're trying to punish the parents for leaving the children alone" argument to do that.

 

[pinto]

I
I don't see anything more illogical in that scenario than in assuming that an abductor managed to perfectly time an abduction in less than thirty minutes, coming in through an unlocked door and exiting through a window carrying a sleeping child.

Why is 30 min such a short window of time to you? I'm thinking most abductions happen extreeeemely quickly... going into the apartment and grabbing a child and exiting (through whichever windows and doors, don't think it's known) would take 30 seconds, not minutes.

 

[april4sky]

Why is 30 min such a short window of time to you? I'm thinking most abductions happen extreeeemely quickly... going into the apartment and grabbing a child and exiting (through whichever windows and doors, don't think it's known) would take 30 seconds, not minutes.

Just what I was thinking. Well planned and executed wouldn't take long at all...mere seconds.

 

[AfterMidnight]

Just what I was thinking. Well planned and executed wouldn't take long at all...mere seconds.

No, it wouldn't take very long to abduct a child, nor would the abductor be at much risk if he/she had a partner, a look out monitoring the group at the Tapas Bar. That's one of the reasons I'm leaning toward abduction - too many people appeared to be watching the McCann party.

 

[nicola]

Why is 30 min such a short window of time to you? I'm thinking most abductions happen extreeeemely quickly... going into the apartment and grabbing a child and exiting (through whichever windows and doors, don't think it's known) would take 30 seconds, not minutes.

Spot on!!!