DY and TY feel this was planned ahead of time.

[Trident]

Some Oregon info on child custody coming from someone who dealt with it regarding a step-child:

Oregon does not have a law regarding letting a child choose where they want to live.

Oregon doesn't like to change custody arrangements unless both parents agree or there are already issues with the welfare of the child that can be documented such as not being provided proper health care or not being provided an education or documented child abuse. My ex got custody of his child when he was failing school and the school called him to tell him the bio-mom wasn't responding to their pleas to help him. He wanted custody for years before that and his attorney advised him that there wasn't enough evidence to make a custodial change and he would be wasting his time.

Sometimes, if both parents want what's best for the child, it isn't a big deal, no need for court, no nothing - but, both parents need to care more about the child than themselves. I wonder if that was true in this case?

My opinion only

 

[raeann]

I'm still having such a hard time wrapping my brain around "planning" something like this. What do you do, take notes? Look at your calendar for good dates for an abduction? I can better understand a "heat of the moment" type of thing, but a cold, calculated plan by an otherwise stable and normal-appearing mother and wife??

The only logic I have come up with about a planned disappearance that day would be the supposed upcoming appointment for some type of an evaluation. Was someone afraid of what would be revealed during such a thorough examination of Kyron? However, if there even WAS an appointment for that, then it seems that it was being arranged for and coordinated by TH. Kaine attempted to make it clear that he had no clue what the whole appointment thing was about. That seems to indicate that TH was the one who wanted the evaluation, and not that she was worried about what it might have revealed about HER. So, then we would be left with.....who at school, or in the family, or who otherwise would want to prevent Kyron from being evaluated the following week?

jmo

 

[ThoughtFox]

I don't think there was any abuse going on. Crying to stay with his mother seems perfectly normal to me. It's a shame that he wasn't with her all the time, or that she had spent more time with him, but that was her choice. My heart breaks for her, but that's the way it was and she couldn't have seen this coming.

I just had a thought - Kyron was seven years old and apparently a smart little boy.

It's sometimes easy to make up stories to fool a younger child, but a seven year old is more aware when adults are lying - especially if the child himself was taught not to lie to others. Kids can smell a hypocrite automatically.

What if he had noticed something unusual that TH was doing? Or knew she was lying to the father? What if Kyron was asking uncomfortable questions, or had said something to his father that TH didn't want him to know?
That would be a motive (beyond revenge for her son leaving the house) for getting Kyron out of the way, especially if she knew that the father wouldn't give up custody.

 

[Jules71]

The only logic I have come up with about a planned disappearance that day would be the supposed upcoming appointment for some type of an evaluation. Was someone afraid of what would be revealed during such a thorough examination of Kyron? However, if there even WAS an appointment for that, then it seems that it was being arranged for and coordinated by TH. Kaine attempted to make it clear that he had no clue what the whole appointment thing was about. That seems to indicate that TH was the one who wanted the evaluation, and not that she was worried about what it might have revealed about HER. So, then we would be left with.....who at school, or in the family, or who otherwise would want to prevent Kyron from being evaluated the following week?

jmo

Not necessarily TH 'wanted' the eval done, but that it had to happen in order to get a possible med refill.

 

[Day Dreamer]

I completely agree that ALL of the parents in the case has flaws. But again, I don't know many parents who don't.

With that said, I have to say I'm in the vast minority that is more sympathetic towards Kaine Horman than to Desiree and Tony. I feel like DY loved her kid VERY much. I am sure she has nothing to do with his disapearance, but, ultimately, Kaine was the one there for him in a day-to-day basis for the past 7 years. And, rather we like it or not, so was Terri.
It's very easy for DY to say she saw so many red flags but honestly? If she was SO concerned she should at the VERY least faught for her kid in court.

I feel for Desiree, I really, really do. She seems like a lovely, smart lady. She did, however, give up on her son without a fight. Which makes m believe she MUST have trusted Kaine. And Terri. In my opinion, Kaine is the biggest victim here. For whatever reasons, he devoted the past 7 years to providing a home for his son. And now he's gone because his crazy wife has some deep routed hatred towards him. Whatever Kaine did to Terri, he did NOT deserve this.

Ultimately, as far as we know, Terri is the only one to blame here. Desiree, Tony and Kaine are probably just human like most of us - flawed and far from perfect.

B&RBM

With all due respect, we do not know for a fact that DY gave up custody w/out a fight. There was a restraining order in place to keep KH from removing Kyron and the other child from the home during their divorce. For all we know, it could have been a very ugly custody battle that perhaps DY did not have the money or health to fight as hard as she wanted.

Also, we do not know if DY has filed anything w/ the court system to try to regain custody. She may have, she may have been too ill, or she may not have had the money. There are so many possibilities. It is all purely speculation.

I don't think any of us have a right to question DY regarding custody when we do not know the circumstances. I have personally seen a lot of custody fights that have gotten really ugly. Parents fighting w/ all they have and still getting no where because the other parent had more money or a better attorney or whatever. I really do not feel that the "best interest of the child" is taken into account much anymore.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

And we still don't know that she did.

At this point, my sympathy quotient for any of the adults is dwindling fast. As someone said upthread a piece, (paraphrase) "The more they open their mouths, the more I shake my head."

God, I wish I could ride on the bandwagon with everyone else, it gets kinda dusty walking behind with only a few who want truth more than blood.

My opinion only

I'm not riding the bandwagon, so you're not alone. To date, we have only heard one side of this story. While it's true that it's not pretty, I'm sure that we will eventually learn a lot more about all of the players in this sad saga. I cannot make a judgment right now because we're only seeing smoke and haven't really seen the fire yet: I feel certain that there is one, or has been a fire smoldering somewhere.

I have plenty of sympathy for Desiree and Kaine, and if Terri has any involvement in Kyron's disappearance, I would like her to tell what she knows, but, for now, I'm satisfied to take a wait-and-see approach until we know more...lots more. jmo

 

[Trident]

The only logic I have come up with about a planned disappearance that day would be the supposed upcoming appointment for some type of an evaluation. Was someone afraid of what would be revealed during such a thorough examination of Kyron? However, if there even WAS an appointment for that, then it seems that it was being arranged for and coordinated by TH. Kaine attempted to make it clear that he had no clue what the whole appointment thing was about. That seems to indicate that TH was the one who wanted the evaluation, and not that she was worried about what it might have revealed about HER. So, then we would be left with.....who at school, or in the family, or who otherwise would want to prevent Kyron from being evaluated the following week?

jmo

Yep. That thought crossed my mind also.

 

[Trident]

The only logic I have come up with about a planned disappearance that day would be the supposed upcoming appointment for some type of an evaluation. Was someone afraid of what would be revealed during such a thorough examination of Kyron? However, if there even WAS an appointment for that, then it seems that it was being arranged for and coordinated by TH. Kaine attempted to make it clear that he had no clue what the whole appointment thing was about. That seems to indicate that TH was the one who wanted the evaluation, and not that she was worried about what it might have revealed about HER. So, then we would be left with.....who at school, or in the family, or who otherwise would want to prevent Kyron from being evaluated the following week?

jmo

Come to think of it, you may have just bumped into the elephant in the room - the doctor's appointment COULD be the key.

My opinion only

 

[Kat010]

At this point, I'm trudging in the dust with Trident and Sogren.

My hinky meter is going off constantly. Here are some of my concerns: why is everyone immediately assuming that if Kyron was upset, it was only because of the SM? Remember, her son was sent to a family member's home because of issues between him and KH.

And now I'm going to say some things that will really put me trudging in the dust. Before I do, I need to say this: no one here knows me, I've just started posting. I have great respect for LE. I graduated from Citizen's Police Academy and ride patrol with cops when I can. Part of my career was also in high-level security/intel/ELINT/counter-intel.

Whew. But, despite all that "tilt" toward LE, I see problems here. Let's start with the alleged murder-for-hire plot. Supposedly, this yard guy is "credible" because--why? LE said so. #1 People often interject themselves into big cases. #2 The same LE sent the yard guy, after all these months, with a STRANGER, to chat up TH. Yea, right. Even if she hadn't made the stranger as a cop, did they really think she was going to chat up the yard guy with the media camped out, the cops all over her, etc. etc? As in "Oh yea, Fred, glad to see ya again, look, things are a little hectic right now but since you didn't do the job already, I think you owe me a 15% price reduction when you finally do off my husband, the jerk."

Instead, she called police and reported a threat.

(cont'd)

 

[cluciano63]

Come to think of it, you may have just bumped into the elephant in the room - the doctor's appointment COULD be the key.

My opinion only

If there really was a doctor's appointment...one of the many things we do not know for sure.

I am so lost in this case...I'm not assuming Terri did anything, or that it was planned if she did, but cannot understand how she can behave the way she is, if she is innocent of anything involving Kyron. By now, we all know about some of her other alleged activities, so really, what could be so awful that she was doing that Friday that she could not confess? Hiring another hit man, I suppose...that might be something she needs to hide.

 

[CASH]

I actually wondered about this before because when they asked what Kyron was looking forward to this summer..nearly everything they said involved Desiree and Tony and i did consider was there some talk of Kyron possibly going to live with his mother and Tony.

JMO

My gut has always led me to wonder if there wasn't a custody battle/discussion going on behind the scenes. I can how TH would become angry at the thought of Kyron moving in with TY and DY. She could feel replaced and/or angry that they would likely have to send child support that direction.

 

[holsen]

I wonder if this appeal is to Terri's new friend, or possibly someone else. Not so much that they truly believe that Kyron is alive, but appealing to the person who might have a conscience and might share what he/she knows.

As to Terri having planned this, I would take Desiree and Tony's word for it, as regards their feelings about it. They know Terri and they have been around her since Kyron disappeared, too. They could also know a lot of what investigators have discovered, things we don't know about regarding what happened that day and things that Terri has done.

I am surprised that there is more news about the "sexting" than about the fact that this man had copies of Kaine's undisclosed location in his phone. Doesn't that point to another possible "hit" attempt?

My opinions.

I agree with you. I've been thinking the same thing.

 

[JBean]

Please keep the actual topic of the thread in mind when posting.


Reaction and discussion regarding the claim by DY and TY that this was planned by TH.

If you want to write about other aspects of the case be sure to find the appropriate thread.

This post is placed randomly in the thread and is not aimed at any immediately surrounding posts.

 

[Kat010]

(cont'd)
Understand, I am not excusing TH's behavior, because I think she has a boatload of problems.

But there also seems to have been a lot of toxic feelings and behaviors in that "extended family."

How TH wound up taking care of Kyron and the "friendship" between the 2 women has gone through widely varied stories. That whole thing was strange.

It's become apparent that KH, SM and SD all agree on one things: they hold TH in disdain, and I don't think that's new. Another poster here said a few days back that it was like TH had started as "servant" and moved up to wife. Agreed. And how did she get into all that anyway? Was it via Kaine? I also note that DY divorced KH *before* the baby was born, which indicates a real set of problems.

Then there's the constant focus on TH, TH, TH and the constant smearing. Plus how, according to KH & LE, LE keep telling them things about TH. Which brings me to this question: how much of the focus on TH comes from things said to LE by the other 3 adults? Obviously, there's real vitriol in the mix--and DY's husband is a detective. So has a lot of stuff flowed from KH & DY straight to the ears of cops as gospel if it came through SF?

ADDED IN EDIT (accidentally whacked out as I tidied post for typos)--and, speaking of plots and problems. Suppose as the marriage was unraveling, KH had told TH "I'll make sure you never see these kids again." Now suppose TH a) actually loved the little boy she'd been raising b) was worried about $ that would come w/child support c) a combination of a & b and d) didn't think he could take her own daugher, and wanted to figure out a way to not have Kyron taken away? (Again, sheer conjecture).

There's just too much hinky in all this.
***end of stuff added in edit

I still am not happy that the little boy's testimony about seeing and briefly talking with Kyron after TH left was so heavily discounted so early.

This poor little boy evidently lived in a cauldron of discord and adult problems, ranging from bigger half-brother having to leave because of problems with KH to all this animosity between the adults. Now he's missing, we're watching a mini Peyton Place, and so far, there has been so much emphasis on TH--especially from LE--and so much drama that Kyron's fate seems to be subtext now to something larger.

I want them to find Kyron, and to find the guilty parties, and to have enough clear, untainted evidence to find them legally guilty in court. But right now, I think the investigation has become a mishmash, is stalled, and maybe got off with tunnel vision on one person only.

I don't think TH walked Kyron out of that school. And if she'd said "oh, run look at something then meet me at the truck" I think Kyron might have said to his little friend: "yea, but gotta hurry, Mom wants me outside for a few minutes." (Sheer conjecture)

This is not to say that I believe TH to be innocent, not at all. But I also do not see enough to say that she's guilty, and that she did this all by herself. And I've seen some things from and about KH that make me wonder just how patient a parent he was--he may have been very controlling and perfectionistic and contributed to Kyron's timidity. I don't know--but I do know that all kinds of things are out there in what seems to be a personal brawl via media vs. "we just want our little boy back."

Whew. If anyone read all this, thanks.

And now I'm going to adjust my sun hat, fan myself, and trudge, trudge behind any bandwagons. I'm just too skeptical of too many people right now and too skeptical how what information has gotten to police--and back out--and how and why, and if the police followed a personal animosity as their lead and focused too much on TH at first, overlooking other stuff.

Trudge. Trudge.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I had a revelation of sorts the other day.

I wondered (not that we'll ever know, I suppose) if Terri watches the soap Days of Our Lives (stay with me here)...one of the current storylines deals with a man who had his child kidnapped and then presumed dead by all (he had some bloody clothes left near a river bank), merely to punish the child's mother, whom he felt deserved it. Later, after he felt she'd suffered enough, he "found" the child himself, and was able to play the part of the "hero".

I know these things happen (people see something on TV then act it out themselves). Have a niece who tricked her bf by getting pregnant. Thought he'd marry her (never happened). She saw it on one of the nighttime soaps. Only I guess on the show, the guy married the girl.

Anyway, it was just a thought.

If that were true, then I would wonder if her plan was to suddenly remember over some period of time "oh yeah, there was So-and-so who did seem overly interested in Kyron..."

Shades of the Smart daughter who witnessed the abduction but needed months to recall the abductor's voice. I totally believe her, by the way, that seems totally plausible for a young girl. But if this was pre-planned, perhaps that was one of the "inspirations" for the plan.

 

[holsen]

~Snipped~

But he was acting out at school to the point that it had been brought up by the teacher to the parents.

This is interesting. I hadn’t heard about this before.

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM To do what TMH has done, there has to be some extreme hate among them. I can't even begin to imagine that kind of hate. I honestly don't know how DY has been strong enough not to beat the total crap out of TMH. I'm not sure I would be able to stop myself if I were in this type of situation and it just dragged out for weeks.

Tony ... I TOTALLY AGREE!

ETA: I am definitely NOT a violent person; but, if my child were in danger / missing, I'm sure I would do a lot of things that I would not normally do.

BBM

Perhaps she's using some good logic?

She has said repeatedly that she believes Kyron is alive. Being married to a police detective, surely she knows that committing assault on another human being, no matter how infuriating or how guilty that human being may be, is against the law.

And then she thinks "what good will it do Kyron to come home and have to visit Mommy in jail because I couldn't restrain myself?"

 

[WhyaDuck?]

(cont'd)
Understand, I am not excusing TH's behavior, because I think she has a boatload of problems.

But there also seems to have been a lot of toxic feelings and behaviors in that "extended family."

How TH wound up taking care of Kyron and the "friendship" between the 2 women has gone through widely varied stories. That whole thing was strange.

It's become apparent that KH, SM and SD all agree on one things: they hold TH in disdain, and I don't think that's new. Another poster here said a few days back that it was like TH had started as "servant" and moved up to wife. Agreed. And how did she get into all that anyway? Was it via Kaine? I also note that DY divorced KH *before* the baby was born, which indicates a real set of problems.

Then there's the constant focus on TH, TH, TH and the constant smearing. Plus how, according to KH & LE, LE keep telling them things about TH. Which brings me to this question: how much of the focus on TH comes from things said to LE by the other 3 adults? Obviously, there's real vitriol in the mix--and DY's husband is a detective. So has a lot of stuff flowed from KH & DY straight to the ears of cops as gospel if it came through SF?

I still am not happy that the little boy's testimony about seeing and briefly talking with Kyron after TH left was so heavily discounted so early.

This poor little boy evidently lived in a cauldron of discord and adult problems, ranging from bigger half-brother having to leave because of problems with KH to all this animosity between the adults. Now he's missing, we're watching a mini Peyton Place, and so far, there has been so much emphasis on TH--especially from LE--and so much drama that Kyron's fate seems to be subtext now to something larger.

I want them to find Kyron, and to find the guilty parties, and to have enough clear, untainted evidence to find them legally guilty in court. But right now, I think the investigation has become a mishmash, is stalled, and maybe got off with tunnel vision on one person only.

I don't think TH walked Kyron out of that school. And if she'd said "oh, run look at something then meet me at the truck" I think Kyron might have said to his little friend: "yea, but gotta hurry, Mom wants me outside for a few minutes." (Sheer conjecture)

This is not to say that I believe TH to be innocent, not at all. But I also do not see enough to say that she's guilty, and that she did this all by herself. And I've seen some things from and about KH that make me wonder just how patient a parent he was--he may have been very controlling and perfectionistic and contributed to Kyron's timidity. I don't know--but I do know that all kinds of things are out there in what seems to be a personal brawl via media vs. "we just want our little boy back."

Whew. If anyone read all this, thanks.

And now I'm going to adjust my sun hat, fan myself, and trudge, trudge behind any bandwagons. I'm just too skeptical of too many people right now and too skeptical how what information has gotten to police--and back out--and how and why, and if the police followed a personal animosity as their lead and focused too much on TH at first, overlooking other stuff.

Trudge. Trudge.

BBM

Welcome, Kat - I enjoyed your posts quite a bit. (And I might have been the "servant to wife" person to whom you refer, and I got beaten up for it, so be forewarned about agreeing with me on that one. )

The bold part, though - I am not 100% certain that LE has focused quite as intently as DY/TY/KH have done, necessarily. I think it is very likely, but, to be honest, they haven't told us enough about their focus to be sure, IMHO.

Just wanted to balance that one comment with what I was seeing.

Other than that - a strong debut to the boards!

 

[chasing.halos]

For the first time, there was a plea to someone besides TH. During the interview I heard Desiree plead to whomever took him. She stated "Please, drop him off at a remote phone booth and tell him to call 911 and say who he is...."

My heart breaks for her

 

[SurfieTX]

For the first time, there was a plea to someone besides TH. During the interview I heard Desiree plead to whomever took him. She stated "Please, drop him off at a remote phone booth and tell him to call 911 and say who he is...."

My heart breaks for her

Off topic a bit, but are there any "remote phone booths" anymore? Most of the ones I have seen are missing the actual phone.