EVERY Possibility...

[JBean]

That would interest me too, JBean - what do you mean by 'explained away'?
Do you mean that the investigators came to the conclusion that it was very unlikely someone entered through the small basement window (undisturbed spider web etc.)?
But this would not be 'explained away' - it would be pointing out a poor staging.

Try to to see this from the perspective of the panicked stagers: maybe the glass was already broken, and the Ramseys got the idea to stage the window as a point of entry.

I guess IMO for the R's to go to such elaborate lengths to stage a kidnap/murder, including that dadgum RN,but to fail to make a clear POE is just another oddity of the case. Seems it would be first on the agenda, espcially if they said the house was locked up.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted by julianne
Your quote says it was determined by LE on the scene that nobody could've passed through the window without leaving signs. I have read in numerous places that there WERE signs....

* There was debris in the window well, but it wasn't pushed up against the windowsill like it was in the other windows.

* There was debris that was inside the house, on the floor beneath the window.

* There was a black mark, much like a scuff mark a shoe would make, on the wall beneath window...above the suitcase.

No there weren't. Smit made signs out of whole cloth when he KNEW that they were NOT signs.

We'll start with the window well debris...

This is a photo of the center window which is the one that JR himself broke a pane in months previously when he was locked out of the house as both he and PR described in their interviews. As you can see, there is dirt and debris on the windowsill that is undistrubed. Even in Smit's own demonstration, one could not get through that window without dragging their bum across that debris thereby wiping it off onto their own bum and dragging it into to house to distribute all over the house and all over the crime scene (and of course not a speck of it was discovered anywhere)...
http://www.acandyrose.com/window-basement6.jpg

The cement section was cleared of debris before that photo was taken because Smit thought he saw a footprint there which upon inspection turned out to be a defect in the cement...

ST - Page 195:

"Lou Smit was certain that another photo showed a footprint at the bottom of the window well. We would later clear away the leaves and debris and take new, detailed photographs. The 'footprint' was a blemish in the concrete."

BUT, even if debris wasn't brushed aside to more closely examine what Smit thought was a footprint, the left and right windows would still have more debris in front of them anyway. Why? Well, let's look at them. Here's the window on the left...
http://www.acandyrose.com/window-basement5.jpg

And here's the window on the right...
http://www.acandyrose.com/window-basement7.jpg

Notice anything? The three windows create an alcove, and normal wind conditions would distribute debris into the corners (i.e., right where it's shown in the left and right window photos). I have a basement window with a similar alcove (although mine is one window rather than 3 across), and just this afternoon I happened to be standing next to it waiting for the dog to do his business when I noticed that my basement window alcove collects debris the same exact way simply because of the wind. Smit used a normal affect of physics and tried to make it into something it obviously isn't.

Remember all that dirt on the center windowsill? Here's a photo of Smit demonstrating crawling through that window. As you can see, he has to drag his bum across that filthy windowsill. This photo was taken after the house had been emptied, cleaned and repainted. As you can also see, Smit placed a convenient suitcase under him which he KNEW wasn't there that night because Fleet White had moved it there the next morning...
http://www.acandyrose.com/smitatwindow131.jpg

Here's the photo of that suitcase under the window that Smit KNEW was put there by Fleet White. WHERE is the debris he claims came into the house from the window with the "intruder"?...
http://www.acandyrose.com/suitcase-window.jpg

I'm seeing a whole lot of junk in there, but nothing like that window debris. If those few dark spots there are the debris Smit says is there, well for heaven's sake, Fleet White OPENED THE WINDOW...
http://www.acandyrose.com/trainroom-window.jpg

Fleet White admitted he went down into the basement himself that morning, opened the window (which JR discovered later when he went to the basement) and moved the suitcase under the window. JR even states in his 1998 interview that he even thought HE had moved the suitcase himself (and it's LOU SMIT that interviews him).

And where is the mention by JR of any debris in his interviews when he and Fleet White were crawling around the floor and found one or two bits of glass? There IS no mention of any debris they found, and both of them were crawling on the floor LOOKING for it...

5 JOHN RAMSEY: I just wanted to start
6 logically from the bottom up, I guess, as I was
7 looking at it. And I could have just as easily
8 gone upstairs, but I went down. Probably just
9 logically going through every inch of the house.
10 So I went down to the basement. I went into this
11 room with Fleet. I explained to him that this
12 window had been cracked open and I closed it. {*this is the window Feet White had opened previously} That
13 the window was broken, but I think it was broken
14 by me once before. We got down on our hands and
15 knees looking for some glass just to see.
16 LOU SMIT: What did you find?
17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we found a few fragments
18 of glass not enough to indicate that it was a
19 fresh break.
20 LOU SMIT: What did you do with those fragments?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: We might have put them on the
22 ledge, if I remember. It really wasn't much. We
23 had only found one or two. We might have put them
24 up here on the ledge.
25 LOU SMIT: Could you have put them on the
0163
1 suitcase?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Ahhhh, it's possible but I
3 don't remember doing that.
4 LOU SMIT: Was the suitcase, when you came
5 back, in the same spot it was when you had been?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I moved it to see or
7 to look for glass then. But I think it was where I
8 left it, where it was when I was down there
9 before. {*Fleet White had admitted that it was he he moved the suitcase and put it under the window}

So, what debris is Smit talking about? Could it be... the debris HE HIMSELF dragged into the basement through the window in the bathroom???...

20 LOU SMIT: One thing I might, you
21 know we were talking about that you had

22 mentioned that the (INAUDIBLE) outside of that

23 window, I want to be completely fair so you

24 don't get the wrong idea, because you can

25 speculate on a lot of things I could tell you.

0768
1 This ledge above the toilet is directly below

2 that window.

3 From what they were able to find

4 out, I went through that window myself just to

5 test to see if anybody could go through there,

6 and when I went through there I brought along

7 with me lot of debris which would fall on that

8 particular ledge. We didn't find that that

9 morning. So I didn't want to mislead you by

10 just saying hey, somebody went in there. You

11 would think that. We don't think that somebody

12 went in that window that night.

13 So I just wanted you to know that.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I was --

15 interesting. I was thinking while I was looking

16 at it, that is a hard way to get into the house.

17 Through that window.


Now, here's what Smit says in his 48 Hours interview...

October 4, 2002 8pm CBS 48 Hours Investigates - Searching for a Killer

Lou Smit: "There are three windows there. The center one that was open, look real closely to the one on the left. Your going to see leaves and debris pressed right up against the window. And the one again in the center.. No leaves or debris."

Erin Moriarty: "Which says?"

Lou Smit: "That window was open. Directly below that open window you have a suitcase, directly around that suitcase you have leaves and debris from that window well around that suitcase. Also you'll see if you look very closely, you'll see a mark goes right down the wall."

Erin Moriarty: (Pointing at photo of wall by window) "Right here"

Why in the world is he saying that the window being open means anything when he KNEW Fleet White had opened it??? John Ramsey said himself in his interviews that he found that window open, closed and latched it himself, and never bothered to tell anyone! Smit also points out the shoe mark on the wall when he KNEW John Ramsey had entered that window HIMSELF a few months previously and that mark was very likely left by HIM.

Now, see how Smit stretches the unbelievable even further...

1998 June 25, 26, 27 - Taped Interrogation interview of John Ramsey by Lou Smit and Michael Kane in Colorado

NE Book Page 314

"Like Patsy, John was shown a series of crime scene photographs. One showed a chair blocking the door into the train room in the basement. To get to the broken window in the cellar, someone has to go through that door. Ramsey found the chair blocking the entranceway during his first search of the basement, moved it and then moved it back, he said. The information cast some doubt on the intruder theory."

Lou Smit: "So you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?"

John Ramsey: "Correct"

Lou Smit: "In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the train room, gets out, let's say, that window?"

John Ramsey: "Uh huh."

Lou Smit: "How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?"

John Ramsey: "I don't know... I go down, I say, "Ooh, that door is blocked." I move the chair and went in the room."

Lou Smit: "So you couldn't have gotten in without moving the chair?"

John Ramsey: "Correct... I had to move the chair."

Lou Smit: "The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as......"

John Ramsey: "I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left."

So this magical intruder in order to get out of the basement somehow managed to close the door behind him and leave a chair on the OPPOSITE side of the door he closed. Who is this guy, Superman? He can magically stick his arm through a closed door and drag a chair in front of it? Totally unbelievable, and Smit bought that crock and ran with that absurd window intrusion theory. It's beyond absurd.

Oh, but it gets better. Here in Smit's interview with John Ramsey, JR tells him that the cord tied onto JBR wrists was tight and swelled her flesh when we KNOW and Smit KNEW from the autopsy that those cords were so loose they practically fell off and there was no cord mark whatsoever on her wrists. Smit just ignored that out and out LIE by John Ramsey...

1998 June 25, 26, 27 - Taped Interrogation interview of John Ramsey by Lou Smit and Michael Kane in Colorado

NE Page 306

Lou Smit: "What else do you remember right at that time?"

John Ramsey: "I just remember just talking and, 'Come on baby.' And I tried to untie her arms. They were tied up behind her head...."

Lou Smit: "Were they tied tight?"

John Ramsey: "Yeah, very tight...her skin was swollen around. And they were not easy to get off. I tried to untie them quickly and I just picked her up, carried her upstiars. I was screaming. In fact, I couldn't even scream."


How anyone can believe this absolute crock, Smit, is beyond me. The man is a disgrace. No wonder he's nicknamed "Bullsmit".

 

[julianne]

PagingDrDetect posted: "Fleet White admitted he went down into the basement himself that morning, opened the window (which JR discovered later when he went to the basement) and moved the suitcase under the window."

I didn't think any Fleet White interviews with LE had been available to the public. Can you direct me to the transcripts of Fleets interview with Lou Smit where Fleet admits to moving the suitcase under the window himself?"

Not saying they don't exist, but I would've thought that if those Fleet White transcripts were available, I would've seen them in the many years I've been looking at this case.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

PagingDrDetect posted: "Fleet White admitted he went down into the basement himself that morning, opened the window (which JR discovered later when he went to the basement) and moved the suitcase under the window."

I didn't think any Fleet White interviews with LE had been available to the public. Can you direct me to the transcripts of Fleets interview with Lou Smit where Fleet admits to moving the suitcase under the window himself?"

Not saying they don't exist, but I would've thought that if those Fleet White transcripts were available, I would've seen them in the many years I've been looking at this case.

Neither of the Whites have ever given an interview or publically commented in any way other than their own letters to the Governor or "Citzens of Colorado" they had published in the paper (and the Ramsey's snickered at them for in their interviews). They liked Steve Thomas very much and let him use their statements freely in his book and even gave him kudos in one of their letters. However, apparantly some of their comments leaked to the press anyway (probably from the Bonita Papers).

Anywho...

04-14-2000 Larry King Live with former Detective Steve Thomas ~

Larry King: "What about the suitcase under the bedroom window?"

Steve Thomas: "Well, I think that's easily explained -- under the basement window."

Larry King: "Basement window."

Steve Thomas: "One, a witness in the house that day moved the suitcase, but I don't think these crime scene photos that some are relying upon are necessarily indicative of what a true pristine crime scene was that day."

Larry King: "Meaning?"

Steve Thomas: "Meaning, the suitcase was moved at one point during the day before that photograph was taken."


04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation" ~

Page 20:

"White went downstairs. The lights were on, and shadows danced in the big basement. A small broken window in a large room where a model raiload was laid out caught his attention, and on the floor beneath the window he found a piece of glass, which he placed on the ledge. He dropped to this hands and knees, searching for other pieces, and moved a suitcase in doing so."

Enquirer - Sept., 1998 ~

Fleet White's eyewitness account to police blows away John Ramsey's "an intruder did it" defense -- exposing his lies.

And a window grate and a spider's web confirm Fleet's crucial evidence.

Four months after JonBenet’s murder, during John's first formal interview with police, he tried to convince the authorities than an intruder killed JonBenet.

For the first time, he suddenly pointed out that he'd searched the basement on his own about 3 1/2 hours before he found JonBenet.

He now recalled that he'd found an open window in one of the basement rooms and a blue suitcase beneath it.

He implied the killer had climbed on the suitcase and scrambled out the window.

The window had a broken pane because John said he'd forced his way into the house a few months before when he'd misplaced his keys.

Investigators wondered why John had kept this information from them for months.

What's worse, Fleet White had already informed cops he'd found the window shut when he searched the basement on his own. Ramsey didn't know that.


http://childsearch.us/site8/white_letters.html
From Fleet and Priscilla White's Letter Requesting Special Prosecutor ~ August, 1998

(excerpt)
Recently, Boulder police detective Steve Thomas, an investigator on the JonBenet Ramsey murder case, left the department in disgust. In his August 6 letter of resignation, he publicly accused the district attorney of obstructing the police investigation and allowing politics to "trump" justice. He asked that a special prosecutor be brought in to handle the case.

We knew JonBenet and her parents very well and have been closely involved in the investigation as witnesses. During the past year, we have also come to know and respect Mr. Thomas and were saddened and discouraged by his departure from the investigation. We share Mr. Thomas' view regarding the district attorney and his contention that overwhelming pressure brought to bear on the district attorney and police leadership from various quarters has thwarted the investigation and delayed justice in the case. While it is unlikely that the district attorney has been corrupted by Ramsey defense attorneys, it is certain that the district attorney and his prosecutors have been greatly influenced by their metro area district attorney advisers and by defense attorneys' chummy persuasiveness and threats of reprisals for anyone daring to jeopardize the civil rights of their victim clients. Indeed, the district attorney and the Ramsey attorneys have simultaneously rebuked the police for "focusing" their investigation on the Ramseys when in fact police were simply following evidence. During the course of the investigation, the district attorney has used inexplicable methods including the recruitment of magazine writers and tabloids to leak information concerning the case and to needle witnesses, "suspects", and police detectives. He has provided evidence to Ramsey defense attorneys at their request but denied reasonable requests by witnesses for their own statements to police. He has thoroughly alienated police detectives and key witnesses whose cooperation is vital to the investigation and prosecution. His public statements regarding the investigation have been erratic, evasive, and misleading. They have also been profoundly damaging to the case. Understandably, public confidence in the district attorney's handling of the investigation was low even before Mr. Thomas' letter.

 

[BBB167893]

"I was thinking it was determined that the glass was already broken, and that someone had admitted to moving the suitcase under the window. My recollection is fading."

It is confusing.

"I guess IMO for the R's to go to such elaborate lengths to stage a kidnap/murder, including that dadgum RN,but to fail to make a clear POE is just another oddity of the case. Seems it would be first on the agenda, espcially if they said the house was locked up."

Well, think about it this way: there was the chance that they could be spotted opening or closing a window. Think about this, too: to make this work, they had to find the note first. If some kidnapper had come in, IF IT WERE ME, I'd have left the place completely normal-looking. Nothing out of place at first. It would kind of tip things off if Patsy gets up, "Oh, what a day we'll have. Gotta make coffee. God, it's cold in here!"

See what I mean?

"No there weren't. Smit made signs out of whole cloth when he KNEW that they were NOT signs."

He did that a lot in this case.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

"No there weren't. Smit made signs out of whole cloth when he KNEW that they were NOT signs."

He did that a lot in this case.

This is what so disturbs me about Smit. It's evident that Smit was aware of blatant lies of the Ramsey's right from the beginning and still he went so far out of his way to try to make something out of nothing in their favor risking his reputation along the way. And supposedly he did all this as a volunteer. Some have said they think it was his having a personal affiliation with the Ramsey's in a religious sense... he and the Ramsey's were both reported to be very religious. However, to go to the lengths he has (and continues to do) on their behalf just because he apparantly shares their religious feelings seems ridiculous to me... plenty of religious people have been caught in similar situations and Smit didn't run to their rescue. Personally, I think that day he sat in the van and perportedly prayed with the Ramsey's he was given an offer by them "he couldn't refuse"... I think he got bought and has to stay bought or risk prosecution himself.

 

[narlacat]

I never thought Smit was bought, just duped.

 

[Eagle1]

I'm thinking we've been saying all along that Smit went through the window to prove it could be done.

He's solved some rather similar cases, and no, I don't think he was bought.
Re similar cases, just last night, Labor Day, on one of the Fox channels, I caught the very last of a story about a kidnapper quoting a scripture verse to the victim's father, "Thou art the man", from 2nd Kings, which was about Nathan telling King David he'd done the same as a rich man taking a poor man's only lamb for a sacrifice instead of one of his own.

It seemed they just ran out of time about 10 eastern, and cut the story short when it was just getting started. The solution wasn't given. Did anyone see the first of it, any other similarities to the JBR case?

 

[magnolia]

Your quote says it was determined by LE on the scene that nobody could've passed through the window without leaving signs. I have read in numerous places that there WERE signs....

* There was debris in the window well, but it wasn't pushed up against the windowsill like it was in the other windows.

* There was debris that was inside the house, on the floor beneath the window.

* There was a black mark, much like a scuff mark a shoe would make, on the wall beneath window...above the suitcase.

Julianne, you are correct. Yes, there WERE signs. Not only was debris found beneath the window, there was also a piece of debris from the windowsill found very close to JonBenet's body.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Julianne, you are correct. Yes, there WERE signs. Not only was debris found beneath the window, there was also a piece of debris from the windowsill found very close to JonBenet's body.

I see you didn't read the whole thread. No, there WEREN'T signs. Smit tried to MAKE signs.

 

[tumble]

Not only was debris found beneath the window, there was also a piece of debris from the windowsill found very close to JonBenet's body.

magnolia, for the debris found next to JBR to mean anything the intruder would have to go straight into the winecellar from the basement window, why would he do that?

I think all IDI's agree that the intruder first went up the stairs.
In this case debris would be found upstairs also which it was not.

 

[angelwngs]

magnolia, for the debris found next to JBR to mean anything the intruder would have to go straight into the winecellar from the basement window, why would he do that?

I think all IDI's agree that the intruder first went up the stairs.
In this case debris would be found upstairs also which it was not.

True, unless, the murderer tried to stuff the body out the window and found it was a stupid idea and drug it back inside spreading the debris inside the winecellar...

That would explain the RN and why it was written in the first place.

*Notice please, I said "murderer", not "intruder". With every other piece of "boggling the brain" type of evidence in this case, I think most of us would agree that the events of the 25th-26th were rarely '"logical".

 

[PagingDrDetect]

I'm beginning to think that a lot of people just don't read. I posted a very lengthy post showing with crime scene photos that NOBODY WENT THROUGH THAT WINDOW. Here's the photo of the window again...

http://www.acandyrose.com/window-basement6.jpg
LOOK at it. See all that dirt on the windowsill? There is NO WAY an intruder got through that window without disturbing all that dirt... it's not POSSIBLE.

And here's that idiot Smit demonstrating going through the window, and even he couldn't do it without dragging his bum across all that dirt...

http://www.acandyrose.com/smitatwindow131.jpg
LOOK at it.

Here's Smit trying a different way of getting through that window, and he STILL can't do it without wiping the dirt off with his bum...

http://www.acandyrose.com/louwindow1.gif
LOOK at it.

Nobody knows WHEN that debris got into the basement. Seeing as JR just months before broke into the house through that window himself that debris could have gotten in there THEN. Fleet White found a chunk of glass from the broken window the day JBR was found dead and put it on the window ledge. If he found that chunk of glass so easily it's obvious they didn't do a very good clean up job after JR broke in the house through that window.

But the facts are spelled out right in that photo of the window with all that dirt on the windowsill... NOBODY went in or out of that window and killed JBR.

 

[BBB167893]

"I'm thinking we've been saying all along that Smit went through the window to prove it could be done."

Yeah, he proved someone could fit through it, but he also proved they couldn't do it without leaving all of the very obvious signs he left. Smit does not look like a very fat man, and he wore no winter clothes when he did it, and he STILL couldn't do it clean.


"LOOK at it. See all that dirt on the windowsill? There is NO WAY an intruder got through that window without disturbing all that dirt... it's not POSSIBLE.

And here's that idiot Smit demonstrating going through the window, and even he couldn't do it without dragging his bum across all that dirt..."

Nope. That was really the big chink in my RST armor back then!

 

[PaperDoll]

I'm beginning to think that a lot of people just don't read. I posted a very lengthy post showing with crime scene photos that NOBODY WENT THROUGH THAT WINDOW. Here's the photo of the window again...

http://www.acandyrose.com/window-basement6.jpg
LOOK at it. See all that dirt on the windowsill? There is NO WAY an intruder got through that window without disturbing all that dirt... it's not POSSIBLE.

And here's that idiot Smit demonstrating going through the window, and even he couldn't do it without dragging his bum across all that dirt...

http://www.acandyrose.com/smitatwindow131.jpg
LOOK at it.

Here's Smit trying a different way of getting through that window, and he STILL can't do it without wiping the dirt off with his bum...

http://www.acandyrose.com/louwindow1.gif
LOOK at it.

Nobody knows WHEN that debris got into the basement. Seeing as JR just months before broke into the house through that window himself that debris could have gotten in there THEN. Fleet White found a chunk of glass from the broken window the day JBR was found dead and put it on the window ledge. If he found that chunk of glass so easily it's obvious they didn't do a very good clean up job after JR broke in the house through that window.

But the facts are spelled out right in that photo of the window with all that dirt on the windowsill... NOBODY went in or out of that window and killed JBR.

I read your post and looked at the pics.. Seeing the pics helps a lot.. Thanks PDD I don't believe the intruder theory.. Not enough evidence to convince me..

 

[PagingDrDetect]

I read your post and looked at the pics.. Seeing the pics helps a lot.. Thanks PDD I don't believe the intruder theory.. Not enough evidence to convince me..

Bless you. I could just kiss your whole face (ok, maybe not). I swear I'm convinced that most of the IDI's just don't read... pelt them with evidence and they close their eyes. It's bizarre.

 

[PaperDoll]

Bless you. I could just kiss your whole face (ok, maybe not). I swear I'm convinced that most of the IDI's just don't read... pelt them with evidence and they close their eyes. It's bizarre.

hehe ... I understand.. :blowkiss: I think most people are stuck on their theory, and it's hard to sway them the other way around... Which I'm sure they would want to sway me to their intruder position.. :crazy: I just have a hard time buying into that one. A lot of evidence points to the Ramseys...Everything took place in their house.. and I also admit that I'm basing my accusation on the way they acted.. Hard for me to over look that.. However, I can't say which one did this.. I go back and forth on this one.. Was it JR, PR or BR? I also have a feeling that daddy was molesting his little JBR.. Just a gut feeling ..

 

[IslandGirl]

The RN is like "bird shot", shooting blame toward a political group, and a business associate, and a kidnapper, and then they verbalized the blame toward the housekeeper.
The stress had them going in many different directions and it took them some time to collect themselves and get their stories straight.

 

[tumble]

True, unless, the murderer tried to stuff the body out the window and found it was a stupid idea and drug it back inside spreading the debris inside the winecellar...

That would explain the RN and why it was written in the first place.

*Notice please, I said "murderer", not "intruder". With every other piece of "boggling the brain" type of evidence in this case, I think most of us would agree that the events of the 25th-26th were rarely '"logical".

I still don't see how this explains why there was no debris found upstairs if the debris actually clings.

 

[BBB167893]

"The RN is like "bird shot", shooting blame toward a political group, and a business associate, and a kidnapper, and then they verbalized the blame toward the housekeeper."

it is kind of a shotgun effect, isn't it?