EVIDENCE - Pro and Con

[Madeleine74]

Also, are there any theories on these people -SM & TM -possibly being innocent? (Really, not trying to make a stir or be attacked here) But I have some concerns with what I know so far on this case, and from what I know/have read, there is really no evidence proving she was killed by SM or TM...again, from what I know thus far/have read.

Well we won't see any evidence until trial. We've seen just some snippets of evidence gathered. To assume this is all the state has is likely a fallacy.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, defendants never have to prove innocence. It is the state's burden 100% to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. There doesn't need to be a theory of innocence. They are presumed by law to be innocent until proven guilty.

 

[SStarr33]

Also, are there any theories on these people -SM & TM -possibly being innocent? (Really, not trying to make a stir or be attacked here) But I have some concerns with what I know so far on this case, and from what I know/have read, there is really no evidence proving she was killed by SM or TM...again, from what I know thus far/have read.

We can't do too much with them being innocent since we are not allowed to sleuth anyone who is not a POI and they are all we have. As far as I'm concerned, my thoughts on their guilt is based on what we do have from both sides as well as logic. Given lack of evidence, I'm happy to flip to the not guilty side, though.

 

[jillycat]

There is no burden of proof that needs to be met on this point. The state can believe she was killed at or near PTL, which is what they said at the time of the arrest warrant. A jury might conclude it didn't happen right there on the spot, but happened by the M's. Just like WS posters believe HE was likely killed elsewhere, they still believe it was the M's who did the deed. The only problem is if a jury can't find evidence that links the M's to HE's disappearance and supposed death.

I don't believe the comparison between internet posters and juries makes any sense.

I do believe that if you offer a timeline, and claim in a probable cause warrant that a murder took place at a specific location, and you have no evidence of that, a thinking jury will want to know why you believe a murder took place there, and at that time. I'm confident that a defense team will explain to the jury that we cannot have both only the perps knowing since there's no evidence, and the state claiming it knows what it cannot know. Trials are built on premises and conclusions and how well they correlate, and the defense will have its own set of premises and conclusions.

What the state can/has to prove under the language of the law is one thing. What the state has to prove to have its claims viewed by a jury as plausible, within the timeline offered, is another.

It's like claiming a glove is evidence the accused killed a woman, then having the jury see that the glove doesn't even fit the accused, and hoping the jury will conclude the glove became smaller between the crime and the trial. JMO

 

[Madeleine74]

I don't believe the comparison between internet posters and juries makes any sense.

I do believe that if you offer a timeline, and claim in a probable cause warrant that a murder took place at a specific location, and you have no evidence of that, a thinking jury will want to know why you believe a murder took place there, and at that time. I'm confident that a defense team will explain to the jury that we cannot have both only the perps knowing since there's no evidence, and the state claiming it knows what it cannot know. Trials are built on premises and conclusions and how well they correlate, and the defense will have its own set of premises and conclusions.

What the state can/has to prove under the language of the law is one thing. What the state has to prove to have its claims viewed by a jury as plausible, within the timeline offered, is another.

It's like claiming a glove is evidence the accused killed a woman, then having the jury see that the glove doesn't even fit the accused, and hoping the jury will conclude the glove became smaller between the crime and the trial. JMO

That glove did fit the killer (you're of course referring to the OJ case), he just acted like it didn't. Even the jury thought he was acting, as detailed in a book written by 3 of the jurors after the case. You're also ignoring all the other evidence that did prove the case forensically (blood drops, fibers, etc, etc) and the fact that the jury was simply not going to convict a black sports hero.

The state of SC is not required to prove she was killed in a specific spot, no matter how important posters think it is, and even if the state alleged that's where she was killed in their arrest warrant. The state may have proof that shows an exact spot or they may only have enough evidence to show PTL was the place where the crime started because her car was left there. If the entire case hinges on the murder itself happening right at PTL (and thus no where else at all, not in the truck, not at the compound), then there couldn't be a case. To get so focused on this one detail to the exclusion of all other evidence that might come in (and which we do not know about yet), is tunnel vision, IMO.

As an example, there was a murder in my town in which the wife was killed in the house. There was no (zero) forensic evidence that proved this. The exact spot in the house where she was killed was unknown. The state thought she was killed downstairs near the foyer, but there was no proof of this. It could have been in another room, it could have been upstairs. The husband claimed he spent upwards of 6 hrs cleaning the house, including the wood floors. The point is... the jury was able to conclude by looking at the evidence throughout the couple months of testimony, the husband is the one who murdered his wife and the jury unanimously convicted him.

 

[bestill]

Also, are there any theories on these people -SM & TM -possibly being innocent? (Really, not trying to make a stir or be attacked here) But I have some concerns with what I know so far on this case, and from what I know/have read, there is really no evidence proving she was killed by SM or TM...again, from what I know thus far/have read.

We won't know until the trial what the evidence is. We're still dealing with a gag order too, so all we have is what we've heard during the hearings and what was reported before the gag order. We're still trying to sort it out too.

 

[PeterThomasFan]

Is there a thread/post of all the known evidence for this case? Or suggestions on this case?

See this post I created:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?238750-EVIDENCE-Pro-and-Con&p=11280627#post11280627

Add to it the mannequin and shirt, BiLo receipt, and guns confiscated and returned to the M's.

 

[magnolia]

Also, are there any theories on these people -SM & TM -possibly being innocent? (Really, not trying to make a stir or be attacked here) But I have some concerns with what I know so far on this case, and from what I know/have read, there is really no evidence proving she was killed by SM or TM...again, from what I know thus far/have read.

Feel free to jump in and join the discussion. Everyone here has a right to their own opinion.

 

[bestill]

See this post I created:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?238750-EVIDENCE-Pro-and-Con&p=11280627#post11280627

Add to it the mannequin and shirt, BiLo receipt, and guns confiscated and returned to the M's.

I was just reading that page, do we know any more about this?

I'm curious I'm curious is offline
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Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
But the post I replied to made it sound like LE found the handcuffs, and then asked for an explanation. I was basically saying that there are plenty of legitimate reasons to have handcuffs, that they would not have to make up an abuse story to cover up handcuffing Heather.

Anyway, I do not know why either of them would tell LE about being tied to a bed? I would think SM would be more likely, if his defense is going to be that he was tied up that night, or that he was so abused that he just did what he was told. I do not know why TM would tell LE about handcuffing him.

A contract between the Moorer's was found....... SM agreed to be restrained for some ridiculous amount of time.....

 

[jillycat]

That glove did fit the killer (you're of course referring to the OJ case), he just acted like it didn't. Even the jury thought he was acting, as detailed in a book written by 3 of the jurors after the case. You're also ignoring all the other evidence that did prove the case forensically (blood drops, fibers, etc, etc) and the fact that the jury was simply not going to convict a black sports hero.

The state of SC is not required to prove she was killed in a specific spot, no matter how important posters think it is, and even if the state alleged that's where she was killed in their arrest warrant. The state may have proof that shows an exact spot or they may only have enough evidence to show PTL was the place where the crime started because her car was left there. If the entire case hinges on the murder itself happening right at PTL (and thus no where else at all, not in the truck, not at the compound), then there couldn't be a case. To get so focused on this one detail to the exclusion of all other evidence that might come in (and which we do not know about yet), is tunnel vision, IMO.

As an example, there was a murder in my town in which the wife was killed in the house. There was no (zero) forensic evidence that proved this. The exact spot in the house where she was killed was unknown. The state thought she was killed downstairs near the foyer, but there was no proof of this. It could have been in another room, it could have been upstairs. The husband claimed he spent upwards of 6 hrs cleaning the house, including the wood floors. The point is... the jury was able to conclude by looking at the evidence throughout the couple months of testimony, the husband is the one who murdered his wife and the jury unanimously convicted him.

And my point is, it's problematic for a prosecution to claim the evidence is there, it's just that the perps act like it isn't.

 

[Madeleine74]

There hasn't been a trial yet. The prosecution is taking the case to trial so of course they are going to say and believe there's enough evidence to have a jury decide.

Why would spectators try to conclude the "evidence isn't there" until such time as all the evidence has been presented? The perps can act like anything they want; most perps in most cases claim there's no or very little evidence as do their paid legal advocates.

We shall see in a few months time.

 

[Dixie E]

In the photo that H sent to her dad about her driving a stick, she is wearing a ring on her middle finger and a watch that looks like the time was 11:05. I wonder if they checked for either one of those in the Ms home.

 

[nosysw]

I'm sure this has been discussed...probably at length. But, maybe he just liked being handcuffed and dominated. There was that VD photo she put on fb with the handcuffs, as well, right? That, in and of itself, would not make me think he, or she, is any more or less likely to have killed Heather. It just would go to opportunity if he was handcuffed at any specific time which would have prohibited his involvement. IMO

 

[NWLady]

Waccamaw Publishers is still trying to obtain the search warrants from the search at the M's. They had to make an appeal and The Supreme Court has yet to decide whether they will hear their case or not.

To answer the second part of your question with a question...: good question!

Thanks PTF for your reply. But this is why I'm confused. From the link here that I have provided, it appears that someone was able to obtain information about the search warrants because in this article it's mentioned LE seized 13 cell phones, 6 computers etc...


Horry County search warrants itemize findings from Moorer, Caison homes

http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_441416a8-86ef-11e4-a903-afb6f4109dfe.html

 

[PeterThomasFan]

Thanks PTF for your reply. But this is why I'm confused. From the link here that I have provided, it appears that someone was able to obtain information about the search warrants because in this article it's mentioned LE seized 13 cell phones, 6 computers etc...


Horry County search warrants itemize findings from Moorer, Caison homes

http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_441416a8-86ef-11e4-a903-afb6f4109dfe.html

That is interesting! A plethora of info in that article. Must dissect.

In a recent article I read from MyHorryNews, it said they were still waiting for their case to be heard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Sorry for any typos!

 

[NWLady]

Also, are there any theories on these people -SM & TM -possibly being innocent? (Really, not trying to make a stir or be attacked here) But I have some concerns with what I know so far on this case, and from what I know/have read, there is really no evidence proving she was killed by SM or TM...again, from what I know thus far/have read.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on what you think happened to Heather. Where is Heather?

 

[TTF14]

I just watched a show about Tanya Harding, in which she was interviewed in present day. It's crazy how much she reminded me of TM, not only in looks, but in her belief that she's the victim. She (Tanya) will never take responsibility for her actions, and I don't believe TM will either. What a sad example for the next generation.

 

[NWLady]

http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_441416a8-86ef-11e4-a903-afb6f4109dfe.html
Investigators also seized two shotguns from the Moorers’ home at 8786 Highway 814, but police returned the weapons a day later, documents show.

http://www.carolinalive.com/news/story.aspx?id=1017968
Police observed three firearms out in the open. According to the report, two long guns were leaning against the wall, while a subcompact pistol rested on the night stand beside the bed.




Isn't it interesting that it does NOT mention that the “subcompact pistol” was returned??

 

[PeterThomasFan]

-$10,600 in cash from a safe (M's home)
-a torso of a mannequin with white a white tank top (M's home)
-Bi-Lo receipt dated Dec. 18, 2013 (M's home)
-two shotguns (M's home) Police took two swabs from a shotgun, but the warrants don’t specify from which shotgun the swab was taken.

What the warrants said

Horry County police executed search warrants at the homes of the Moorers and Caisons on Dec. 23, 2013 and Feb. 21, 2014, records show.

The warrants sought cell phones, computers, video recording devices and a plethora of other evidence in the Elvis case, according to documents obtained by the Chronicle.

Police also sought forensic evidence, weapons, clothing, jewelry, phone records, financial records, vehicle keys, receipts, garden or other outdoor tools and unspecified personal identification, correspondence and passwords, the warrants state.

[...]

After searching the home, police seized several boxes of records, CDs and mini-cassettes. The contents of those items were not disclosed in the warrant returns.

Police also took numerous bank records, flash drives, journals and Sidney Moorer’s business license, records state.

The affidavit said Heather Elvis was last seen wearing a white watch and was in possession of her keys, a phone, her identification and her purse and/or wallet, the document says.

“The affiant believes that it is necessary to enter the above property under the premise of a search warrant and that entering said property will lead to information that will help with the disappearance and/or finding of the victim,” the affidavit states.

[...]

Sidney Moorer told police he couldn’t leave the home without his wife due to “trust issues,” the affidavit continues.

http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_441416a8-86ef-11e4-a903-afb6f4109dfe.html

 

[NWLady]

http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/24996...sist-moorers-are-innocent-until-proven-guilty

WMBF News was the first to break new information about the Moorers' home, details the police reported gathering the day they arrested the couple. The Horry County Police report mentions the home was is in disarray and unsanitary, with potatoes on the kitchen counter that had began to mold, and trash throughout the home, including in the children's bedrooms, which were also reported to be in disarray, described as "nearly in an unlivable manner."

 

[NWLady]

http://www.wbtw.com/story/24804575/...-couple-in-connection-with-heather-elvis-case

"We were able to secure enough probable cause to get a search warrant for the property of the Moorer's. And after conducting that search warrant we were able to secure enough evidence to allow for probable cause for a kidnapping charge as well as the charge for murder," said Rhodes.