Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[LambChop]

I believe Mr. Kronk's statement was that it was in the bag and rolled out. Since we were not there I think we have to go by his statement. At some point it was in the bag attached to the body (this is hard to write). Early stages of death the jaw drops so if the duct tape were not there the jaw....because we know the body was bagged...would have dropped into the bag. The duct tape kept the jaw in place. This is what I understand. The rest of what was left of the remains was still in the bag. At some point the skull rolled out, was pulled out or was knocked out and the jaw was kept in place by the duct tape. There, I think I got it...well I think that is what I understand from our great experts here. JMO

 

[LambChop]

Yes that makes sense. However if she gets on the stand and someone presents an alternative theory that makes sense, she may agree to it. IMO

I'm not sure what alternative theory would make a difference. The jaw was wired??? The pictures tell the story and my guess defense will want to get past this as fast as possible. JMO

 

[miss plum]

We are getting close to agreement here. I agree as well, what will LKB challenge?

Only problem I see with the above statement is: If the Mandible should have dropped what would it drop to? It was already sitting on the ground. Where would it drop to? How can gravity make it drop if it is already on the ground? Just a simple question I have.

I saw deffering as speculation. I looked it up on dictionary . com and on line 3 it says to guess to speculate.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inferred?&qsrc=

The inferred meaning of a thing is the meaning the reader or listener takes away from it. If a medical examiner looks at some evidence, her 'inference' is her best understanding of what she is seeing or reading. It is her expert, qualified assessment of the evidence under examination. 'Inferred' in this context is not at all a sign of vagueness, or hasty guesswork.

 

[OKaraMia]

reasons that show this was no accident (IMO):

1. KC impeded the investigation at every opportunity
2. KC rejected opportunity to own up to an accident
3. Duct tape
4. 31 days
5. No remorse
6. Additional criminally flippant behaviors (a crime spree, if I may)

I think I could go on...but my ice crem would melt

 

[ZsaZsa]

We are getting close to agreement here. I agree as well, what will LKB challenge?

Only problem I see with the above statement is: If the Mandible should have dropped what would it drop to? It was already sitting on the ground. Where would it drop to? How can gravity make it drop if it is already on the ground? Just a simple question I have.

I saw deffering as speculation. I looked it up on dictionary . com and on line 3 it says to guess to speculate.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inferred?&qsrc=

It's odd that you would bypass #1 and #2 to select definition #3 as it is the least likely to apply in this case, but it does meet your constant need to cast doubt on all evidence.
Here is definition #1-
To derive by reasoning, conclude or judge from premises or evidence.
Then there is #2-
To indicate or involve as a conclusion; lead to.
But you chose to select (3) which is the least likely of the definitions

Believe me, you and I are nowhere near agreement.

I am not sure what your point is at to the relevance of dropping. Only the murderer knows which position the skull was in until it was disturbed, either by scavengers, or on discovery. Whatever position it was in, the mandible was held securely in its approximate anatomic position.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Yes that makes sense. However if she gets on the stand and someone presents an alternative theory that makes sense, she may agree to it. IMO

But it's not a matter of theory as to the position of the duct tape, it is a matter of documented fact. What theory can change the fact?

 

[JBean]

Completely OT..Sorry JBean :angel:..How many of us are going to be crazy as a bed-bug before this trial even gets here?

gahhh!!! off to bury my head in the sand..:banghead:..:croc:...

"going to be crazy as a bed-bug "? Honey we are there!

 

[logicalgirl]

We are getting close to agreement here. I agree as well, what will LKB challenge?

Only problem I see with the above statement is: If the Mandible should have dropped what would it drop to? It was already sitting on the ground. Where would it drop to? How can gravity make it drop if it is already on the ground? Just a simple question I have.

I saw deffering as speculation. I looked it up on dictionary . com and on line 3 it says to guess to speculate.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inferred?&qsrc=

I think I'm missing something in this back and forth. Isn't it a medical fact that the mandible is not permanently attached to the jaw bone and in the majority of incidences when bodies are found it is not attached to the jaw unless body ligaments and muscle are viable enough to hold it in place? They might without assistance to hold be lying sort of side by side if not disturbed, but not in place as in life, surely?

 

[joypath]

We are getting close to agreement here. I agree as well, what will LKB challenge?

Only problem I see with the above statement is: If the Mandible should have dropped what would it drop to? It was already sitting on the ground. Where would it drop to? How can gravity make it drop if it is already on the ground? Just a simple question I have.

I saw deffering as speculation. I looked it up on dictionary . com and on line 3 it says to guess to speculate.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inferred?&qsrc=

"Only problem I see with the above statement is: If the Mandible should have dropped what would it drop to? It was already sitting on the ground. Where would it drop to? How can gravity make it drop if it is already on the ground? Just a simple question I have."

I took this quote out to address: The point of the mandible dropping was in reference to the activity post mortem while the body resembles a living creature, not in reference to the skeletonized remains. Simply put, post mortem the muscle/ligaments do not retain the control in death that they had in life, thus the jaw will eventually drop unless artificially assisted.

Hope this distinction helps in the discussion.

 

[logicalgirl]

"Only problem I see with the above statement is: If the Mandible should have dropped what would it drop to? It was already sitting on the ground. Where would it drop to? How can gravity make it drop if it is already on the ground? Just a simple question I have."

I took this quote out to address: The point of the mandible dropping was in reference to the activity post mortem while the body resembles a living creature, not in reference to the skeletonized remains. Simply put, post mortem the muscle/ligaments do not retain the control in death that they had in life, thus the jaw will eventually drop unless artificially assisted.

Hope this distinction helps in the discussion.

LOL, that's an amazingly clear answer you gave to the very muddled question I asked in the thread just above you Joypath, thank you. Why does it sound so much better when someone who knows what they are talking about answers!

 

[LambChop]

"only problem i see with the above statement is: If the mandible should have dropped what would it drop to? It was already sitting on the ground. Where would it drop to? How can gravity make it drop if it is already on the ground? Just a simple question i have."

i took this quote out to address: The point of the mandible dropping was in reference to the activity post mortem while the body resembles a living creature, not in reference to the skeletonized remains. Simply put, post mortem the muscle/ligaments do not retain the control in death that they had in life, thus the jaw will eventually drop unless artificially assisted.

Hope this distinction helps in the discussion.

perfect!!!

 

[ZsaZsa]

I think I'm missing something in this back and forth. Isn't it a medical fact that the mandible is not permanently attached to the jaw bone and in the majority of incidences when bodies are found it is not attached to the jaw unless body ligaments and muscle are viable enough to hold it in place? They might without assistance to hold be lying sort of side by side if not disturbed, but not in place as in life, surely?

In Dr Schultz' report,(post-mortem examination) his conclusion stated:
"Considering the dispersal of the skeletal remains, it would not be expected to find the mandible in this position unless something affixed the mandible in this position prior to decomposition and the hair matt forming.
In skeletal cases involving surface depositions, the mandible and cranium are normally found disarticulated because there is nothing to hold the mandible in place after the soft tissues decompose"


The mandible forms a freely movable joint that only articulates at the temporo-mandibular joint, so it is not held in place by anything other than soft tissue.

 

[nort]

When my mother passed away (god bless her soul) her jaw dropped immediatly. I tried to close her mouth before my grandmother came in and I could not. I believe this is why at a wake the lips of the corpse are sewn shut.

 

[Nana46]

Trying to keep up and something clicked.....when we see photos of just a skull wherever, the internet, books whatever, I don't think I ever remember seeing one with the jaw closed....it is always open....am I dreaming here? Just the mouth wide open so now I understand why they are like that....thank you so much....it makes so much sense now.

 

[Nana46]

Gosh I did not mean to run everyone off,lol.

 

[christee]

Completely OT..Sorry JBean :angel:..How many of us are going to be crazy as a bed-bug before this trial even gets here?

gahhh!!! off to bury my head in the sand..:banghead:..:croc:...

Honestly, I hit that level months ago...:crazy:

 

[notthatsmart]

I'm not sure what alternative theory would make a difference. The jaw was wired??? The pictures tell the story and my guess defense will want to get past this as fast as possible. JMO

Hypothetically: Not stating this as fact. Just speculating and guessing.

I don't know either. How about the root growth had grown through the skull and was holding the mandible in place? Just a guess.

How about the Mandible was not held in place, it was just sitting there beneath the skull? Just a guess.

How about Mud was holding it in place from all the water and silt? Just a guess.

How about the tangled and matted hair was holding it in place. Just a guess.

In the medical examiners report it says normally the mandible disarticulates. Okay, but what about when its not normal? What is the percentage? Body farm data??????????????

I have no idea what LKB is going to come up with, but I know when an expert uses the word inferred, they are not absolutely sure. IMO

 

[flourish]

When my mother passed away (god bless her soul) her jaw dropped immediatly. I tried to close her mouth before my grandmother came in and I could not. I believe this is why at a wake the lips of the corpse are sewn shut.

:hug:

 

[flourish]

Hypothetically: Not stating this as fact. Just speculating and guessing.

I don't know either. How about the root growth had grown through the skull and was holding the mandible in place? Just a guess.

How about the Mandible was not held in place, it was just sitting there beneath the skull? Just a guess.

How about Mud was holding it in place from all the water and silt? Just a guess.

How about the tangled and matted hair was holding it in place. Just a guess.

In the medical examiners report it says normally the mandible disarticulates. Okay, but what about when its not normal? What is the percentage? Body farm data??????????????

I have no idea what LKB is going to come up with, but I know when an expert uses the word inferred, they are not absolutely sure. IMO

*Sigh*
How about the duct tape was holding it in place.

 

[joerose]

I think all of these posts are fantastic. You are all so right on. I think Pantheras is the one that really hits home though. I hate Casey Anthony. Poor baby Caylee. This is so sad.