Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[notthatsmart]

"Only problem I see with the above statement is: If the Mandible should have dropped what would it drop to? It was already sitting on the ground. Where would it drop to? How can gravity make it drop if it is already on the ground? Just a simple question I have."

I took this quote out to address: The point of the mandible dropping was in reference to the activity post mortem while the body resembles a living creature, not in reference to the skeletonized remains. Simply put, post mortem the muscle/ligaments do not retain the control in death that they had in life, thus the jaw will eventually drop unless artificially assisted.

Hope this distinction helps in the discussion.

It appears as though the whole skull with the mandible dropped. The skull was found upright, facing north west. Not sure what bones are connected to the head to allow the whole skull to disarticulate from the neck. Once the whole skull and mandible drop to the ground, then where does the mandible drop to? It is a surface deposition. Is it normal for the entire skull to fall into the upright position? I am fascinated by this find and appreciate a professional view. Another tid bit of information. Rk stated that he tapped on it a few times (hollow sound) before lifting the bag. The base of the skull was attached to a hair mat with roots growing through it. Thanks

 

[notthatsmart]

I think I'm missing something in this back and forth. Isn't it a medical fact that the mandible is not permanently attached to the jaw bone and in the majority of incidences when bodies are found it is not attached to the jaw unless body ligaments and muscle are viable enough to hold it in place? They might without assistance to hold be lying sort of side by side if not disturbed, but not in place as in life, surely?

Yes that is the way I understand it. However, in this case the skull was sitting upright on the ground. Is that normal? How did that happen? Does the entire skull disarticulate? I have seen many photos of skeletal remains and have never seen the skull sitting upright. And in this I have the problem. If the skull is sitting upright on top of the mandible. How can the mandible drop at this point? Perhaps Joypath can answer.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

osteological autopsy report



Autopsy Report

Bumping for notthatsmart.

 

[Nana46]

I dunno....from what I have read it is sickening....I have to be content knowing in my heart that the medical examiner speaks the truth and she is the educated one here with no "dog in this fight." To me the duct tape says it all and is enough for me....I really am not interested in what fell or dropped when and if/or whatever....the fact that the tape was there and surely held the mandible together (from all that has been presented to us) is enough for me....but hey that is just me. We have been here two years dwelling everyday on this case and it is enough to drive us insane.........but it appears the accused one is making it just fine.....wonder why that is....sorry got off topic here....my bad.......I just cannot see accident any way shape or form.....nope the tape cinches it for me in oh so many ways......God bless this child that was Caylee......and we will never forget her.

 

[notthatsmart]

But it's not a matter of theory as to the position of the duct tape, it is a matter of documented fact. What theory can change the fact?

If it was fact, why didn't he state it as fact? Instead of saying it could be inferred? (guess, speculation)

How can we establish this as fact when the Medical examiner won't even establish it as fact or state it as fact?

IMO it is not a matter of documented fact.

I agree to disagree with you. It is a matter of the interpretation of the documents at hand. Many just accept it as fact. I can accept that. But the Jury has 12. Will they all accept it as fact?

I think this person will be cross examined and explain his reasoning for not stating it as fact. At that time, he will have the opportunity to say it is his opinion that the duct tape held the mandible in place.

 

[Nana46]

Are you guys reading something I am not? I just read the autopsy report again and I don't see "inferred"...the Dr. clearly states the tape held the mandible in place........maybe I am on the wrong report, sorry about that. I need to just go back and lurk before I confuse others like I am confused,lol.
Sorry guys....

 

[notthatsmart]

I am out to search for LKB statement to a reporter that they are going to challenge the placement of the Duct tape. I just cannot figure out why they would do that if it is soddi. Unless they just want to point out inconsistencies in the states case.

 

[notthatsmart]

Are you guys reading something I am not? I just read the autopsy report again and I don't see "inferred"...the Dr. clearly states the tape held the mandible in place........maybe I am on the wrong report, sorry about that. I need to just go back and lurk before I confuse others like I am confused,lol.
Sorry guys....

Which report, which page which line?

I found it, page 3 of the autopsy report. It appears that Dr G made the statement.

So Dr G states that it is clear.
Dr Utz states it can be inferred.
That is good enough for me. Thank you.

Now, why in the world would LKB challenge the placement of the tape?

 

[Nana46]

Which report, which page which line?

In this thread right above...there are two reports....I think she located them for you look above....maybe Expecting unicorns? Will have to go look, sorry about that.

 

[Nana46]

Post 543.

 

[flourish]

I am out to search for LKB statement to a reporter that they are going to challenge the placement of the Duct tape. I just cannot figure out why they would do that if it is soddi. Unless they just want to point out inconsistencies in the states case.

When you find the statement or video or whatever that you're looking for, could you please post it and provide the date of said statement or video, please? You bring up a good point about whether or not they would be worrying if the tape moved if they are going for an SODDI. I'm just interested in the wording and time-line context of the statement. Thanks!

 

[Astraea]

If it was fact, why didn't he state it as fact? Instead of saying it could be inferred? (guess, speculation)

How can we establish this as fact when the Medical examiner won't even establish it as fact or state it as fact?

IMO it is not a matter of documented fact.

I agree to disagree with you. It is a matter of the interpretation of the documents at hand. Many just accept it as fact. I can accept that. But the Jury has 12. Will they all accept it as fact?

I think this person will be cross examined and explain his reasoning for not stating it as fact. At that time, he will have the opportunity to say it is his opinion that the duct tape held the mandible in place.

I am definitely one of 12 that will NOT at this point in time. If this person testifies and furthers on their explanation that this did IN FACT hold the mandible in place I will accept it as being so.

 

[miss plum]

Hopefully all potential rogue jurors will be weeded out during jury selection.

 

[Astraea]

Hopefully all potential rogue jurors will be weeded out during jury selection.

I hope they pick a jury fairly and within the scope of the law. I suppose thats why jury selection is random, and both sides get to question and select.

I just want to say that even with all this evidence against Casey, I can not get past the flurry of calls or the dogs hitting in the backyard. I think I may be able to convict if the consequence was not death.

I have no doubt she is responsible for her daughter Caylees death but I believe due to neglect NOT premeditated murder. I appreciate all your thoughts and all the proof you have collected in this thread, and yet I still could not put her to death. Too many things are just not consistent or known to be fact in this case.

This is of course just my opinion.

 

[Astraea]

I think the defense is planning on contesting the heart sticker on the tape as well as the brand. I have yet to hear anything about contesting the placement of the duct tape.

I am wondering and hoping someone could point me in the right direction. How in the world could the duct tape be across the mouth still with no skin, ligaments, etc to hold it in place. I know it was attached to the hair mat, but I feel stunned here trying to figure out how it stayed adhered in such a way, to be "on the mouth" ?

 

[Dignity4Victims]

I am definitely one of 12 that will NOT at this point in time. If this person testifies and furthers on their explanation that this did IN FACT hold the mandible in place I will accept it as being so.

Some things are simple and a matter of nothing more than common sense. The duct tape holding the mandible is one of them.

 

[Astraea]

Some things are simple and a matter of nothing more than common sense. The duct tape holding the mandible is one of them.

I guess I just find it very odd that the tape still had "sticky" on the backing after all that time in the water,exposed to the elements, vermin (who I would think would be attracted to the glue on the tape), etc.. Common sense would say to me that this seems improbable. I am sure jurors will have the unfortunate task of viewing photos which will definitively say one way or another.

O/T (sort of) I agree with the earlier posters about this case being one of the crazier ones. I still for the life of me am trying to figure out why Caylee. Of all the cases I read about here and in case studies that are absolutely horrifying with prior abuses, amongst other aspects, this one has certainly gripped an awful lot of people! Bless her little soul!

 

[flourish]

I hope they pick a jury fairly and within the scope of the law. I suppose thats why jury selection is random, and both sides get to question and select.

I just want to say that even with all this evidence against Casey, I can not get past the flurry of calls or the dogs hitting in the backyard. I think I may be able to convict if the consequence was not death.

I have no doubt she is responsible for her daughter Caylees death but I believe due to neglect NOT premeditated murder. I appreciate all your thoughts and all the proof you have collected in this thread, and yet I still could not put her to death. Too many things are just not consistent or known to be fact in this case.

This is of course just my opinion.

RBBM, for emphasis. I sure hope they get a fair and balanced jury, too. Just so we're all clear, though, "rogue" means:


a deceitful and unreliable scoundrel

So, a rogue juror would be someone who was deceitful and unreliable. I'm sure none of us want that.

 

[JBean]

Are you guys reading something I am not? I just read the autopsy report again and I don't see "inferred"...the Dr. clearly states the tape held the mandible in place........maybe I am on the wrong report, sorry about that. I need to just go back and lurk before I confuse others like I am confused,lol.
Sorry guys....

The ostelogical report by Dr. Schultz says it can be inferred that the tape held the mandible in place in the opinion section.

 

[southernbrunette]

From one of KC's letters to RA: "It's so sad how drastically things have changed since we were both in school. One thing I know for sure- the more “power” satan obtains before the final showdown, the worse things are going to get. The chaplain and I have talked about that a lot. We need to find a way to reach out to today's youth and to the youth of tomorrow because we need them in this fight. It's easier to convert a less corrupted mind (I almost feel guilty putting it like that, but it's true in many aspects) and I know we could positively influence these young minds before they become one of the many drowning in society and the devils within.. It's hard not to get worked up over these issues before us. Especially for those of us who knows what will happen in the coming years.

Okie dokie now. I think KC has revealed in her own letter why Caylee did not drown. She has no problem using the word "drowning" and "young people" in the same sentence. Interestingly when KC mentions in another letter that if she finds out who did this to Caylee she will "end" them. She avoids the word "kill". No problem saying drowning in one sentence but avoids saying "kill" in another even though the sentence sounds ackward with the word "end" in it. JMO

She does say the word "guilty" though.