Evidence you can't explain

[UKGuy]

It's in Patsy's 1998 interview with Haney.

23 TOM HANEY: In the garage there, the garage

24 door itself.

25 PATSY RAMSEY: The big one here.

0339

1 TOM HANEY: Yeah. Was that down in the

2 morning?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

4 TOM HANEY: Do you remember closing it when

5 you got home that night, or did John?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically

7 that. We usually came in, closed the door, hit the

8 button.

9 TOM HANEY: Pretty much routine?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.


11 TOM HANEY: Photo 63.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.

13 TRIP DEMUTH: Which vehicle did you take to

14 the lake, was that the white Jaquar, is that what that

15 is?

16 PATSY RAMSEYInaudible). Yeah, I'm almost

17 sure. Yeah, I think it is. And there is JonBenet's

18 coat back there.

19 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that the coat she wore that

20 night?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I think so.

Mountain_Kat,
JR saying he carried JonBenet upstairs and removed her coat, is alike PR stating she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer.

It demonstrates how the R's simply fabricated their version of events, another example is the pineapple snack, which again contradicts the R's version of events.

.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

They made some stops on the way home, so the car probably got pretty warm. Maybe JonBenet took her coat off...

Did the people they were visiting live far away? I always assumed they were close neighbors.

 

[DeeDee249]

Did the people they were visiting live far away? I always assumed they were close neighbors.

They all lived in Boulder, but some were closer to the R's house than others. Patsy said there was one remaining gift they were supposed to drop off that night and decided against it because their friend's house was too far away and it would get them home too late with such an early start the next morning

As with all fabricated coverups, there are always truths mixed in with the lies. I have no reason to doubt the R's did make several stops on the way home and that they did decide to forgo the last stop so they could get home earlier. But the lies begin at the moment they arrive home. That is when they have to make everyone believe that JB was asleep, remained asleep, and they never saw her alive again. That is the reason they lied about her having to be carried into the house (when BR told police she walked in herself). That is the reason they lied about the pineapple, too. They had to maintain that she was asleep the whole time. If she was awake at any point, that brings the time of death VERY close to a time when the rest of the family was likely to still be awake and walking about. No way an intruder could break in, take her from her room, feed her pineapple, molest her, cause her to scream, bash her, make the garrote, strangle her, wipe blood from her thighs and pelvic area, redress her, get the white blanket from wherever it was, place the body in the winecellar write the note with paper and pen taken from the kitchen and then replace the pen in the cupholder, put the note on the back stairs (which the family used to go up to their rooms) and sneak out of the house, leaving behind the box of tissues and all the other things the Rs said "didn't belong to the house" - all this done while the family was still awake? Nope, nope, nope. Offends all reason.
JR claimed to help BR put together a present he received after they got home; he also slipped and said he read TO his daughter before bed. Patsy said she remained up getting things ready for their early flight the next morning. They arrived home between 9 & 10 pm. They had to be up at least till 11 pm or later.
The Rs were trying to project that this "kidnapping/murder" happened much later- in the wee hours, maybe 2-3-4 am. But of course, science doesn't lie. The pineapple and the stage of rigor, puts her death occurring around midnight. JB was found in full rigor, which takes 12 hours to form in indoor temperatures, then it remains in full rigor for another 12 hours before beginning to pass off. She was found at 1pm, so TOD was between midnight and 1 am (or even earlier). If you read the autopsy report, the coroner noted rigor was beginning to pass off in some joints. The autopsy was done approximately 30 hours or so after death, and it coincided perfectly with the timeline of death occurring around midnight, full rigor formed by 1 pm on the 26th when she was brought up, full rigor remaining through the night of the 26th and beginning to pass off by the 8 am autopsy on the 27th.

 

[borndem]

Excellent argument, DeeDee! Very good & thorough post! Thanks.


Partial original quote by DeeDee249:

JR claimed to help BR put together a present he received after they got home; he also slipped and said he read TO his daughter before bed. Patsy said she remained up getting things ready for their early flight the next morning. They arrived home between 9 & 10 pm. They had to be up at least till 11 pm or later.
The Rs were trying to project that this "kidnapping/murder" happened much later- in the wee hours, maybe 2-3-4 am. But of course, science doesn't lie. The pineapple and the stage of rigor, puts her death occurring around midnight. JB was found in full rigor, which takes 12 hours to form in indoor temperatures, then it remains in full rigor for another 12 hours before beginning to pass off. She was found at 1pm, so TOD was between midnight and 1 am (or even earlier). If you read the autopsy report, the coroner noted rigor was beginning to pass off in some joints. The autopsy was done approximately 30 hours or so after death, and it coincided perfectly with the timeline of death occurring around midnight, full rigor formed by 1 pm on the 26th when she was brought up, full rigor remaining through the night of the 26th and beginning to pass off by the 8 am autopsy on the 27th.

bbm -- What you say above makes the date of death, shown below, accurate and not false, as I had thought. I have been worried about the death date below from the beginning, but you have shown that it is certainly possible & not just poetic and romantic irony by the dramatic PR:

What you say makes good, sound sense, and it tears up so very much of what JR & PR said. Ka-Pow!!
​

 

[Mama2JML]

Mountain_Kat,
JR saying he carried JonBenet upstairs and removed her coat, is alike PR stating she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer.

It demonstrates how the R's simply fabricated their version of events, another example is the pineapple snack, which again contradicts the R's version of events.

.

When/where did JR say he removed JonBenet's coat? I don't believe he mentioned it during his 1997 interview. He did describe what JonBenet was wearing & her coat was not mentioned.

 

[txsvicki]

The rigor and pineapple in the digestive tract along with medical expertise on how long it would take for brain swelling shows that things happened probably within 30-45 minutes after the Ramsey's got home that night.

 

[bettybaby00]

They all lived in Boulder, but some were closer to the R's house than others. Patsy said there was one remaining gift they were supposed to drop off that night and decided against it because their friend's house was too far away and it would get them home too late with such an early start the next morning

As with all fabricated coverups, there are always truths mixed in with the lies. I have no reason to doubt the R's did make several stops on the way home and that they did decide to forgo the last stop so they could get home earlier. But the lies begin at the moment they arrive home. That is when they have to make everyone believe that JB was asleep, remained asleep, and they never saw her alive again. That is the reason they lied about her having to be carried into the house (when BR told police she walked in herself). That is the reason they lied about the pineapple, too. They had to maintain that she was asleep the whole time. If she was awake at any point, that brings the time of death VERY close to a time when the rest of the family was likely to still be awake and walking about. No way an intruder could break in, take her from her room, feed her pineapple, molest her, cause her to scream, bash her, make the garrote, strangle her, wipe blood from her thighs and pelvic area, redress her, get the white blanket from wherever it was, place the body in the winecellar write the note with paper and pen taken from the kitchen and then replace the pen in the cupholder, put the note on the back stairs (which the family used to go up to their rooms) and sneak out of the house, leaving behind the box of tissues and all the other things the Rs said "didn't belong to the house" - all this done while the family was still awake? Nope, nope, nope. Offends all reason.
JR claimed to help BR put together a present he received after they got home; he also slipped and said he read TO his daughter before bed. Patsy said she remained up getting things ready for their early flight the next morning. They arrived home between 9 & 10 pm. They had to be up at least till 11 pm or later.
The Rs were trying to project that this "kidnapping/murder" happened much later- in the wee hours, maybe 2-3-4 am. But of course, science doesn't lie. The pineapple and the stage of rigor, puts her death occurring around midnight. JB was found in full rigor, which takes 12 hours to form in indoor temperatures, then it remains in full rigor for another 12 hours before beginning to pass off. She was found at 1pm, so TOD was between midnight and 1 am (or even earlier). If you read the autopsy report, the coroner noted rigor was beginning to pass off in some joints. The autopsy was done approximately 30 hours or so after death, and it coincided perfectly with the timeline of death occurring around midnight, full rigor formed by 1 pm on the 26th when she was brought up, full rigor remaining through the night of the 26th and beginning to pass off by the 8 am autopsy on the 27th.

Man oh man, if that doesn't shatter the illusion of IDI I'm not sure what else can!

 

[Mountain_Kat]

When/where did JR say he removed JonBenet's coat? I don't believe he mentioned it during his 1997 interview. He did describe what JonBenet was wearing & her coat was not mentioned.

I know that's what he said it Death Of Innocence. And in Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Schiller says that this is what JR told police. And Patsy even confirms it in the Atlanta 2000 interview.

16 Q. Did you do this by yourself or

17 did John help you too?

18 A. No, John did not help me.

19 Q. You told us that you changed

20 JonBenet's clothing when she came home to put

21 her in clothes to sleep?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Did John assist in that process?

24 A. He, I believe, took her coat off,

25 maybe her shoes.

 

[DeeDee249]

When/where did JR say he removed JonBenet's coat? I don't believe he mentioned it during his 1997 interview. He did describe what JonBenet was wearing & her coat was not mentioned.

I do think it was in one of his interviews on ACR. He was asked about the events of the night from when they left the White's. He was asked about carrying a sleeping JB to her room, where he said he took off her coat and shoes, saying he "left the rest to Patsy".

 

[FreeSafety36]

The most notable evidence that I don't even have a theory for is the black mark on JB's mandible, under her right ear. That really perplexes me.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

The most notable evidence that I don't even have a theory for is the black mark on JB's mandible, under her right ear. That really perplexes me.

I don't know for sure where that came from either, but her black velvet vest had little silver snaps on it that look to me to be about the same size. I've always wondered if that mark came from those snaps...but I have no idea.

 

[FreeSafety36]

I don't know for sure where that came from either, but her black velvet vest had little silver snaps on it that look to me to be about the same size. I've always wondered if that mark came from those snaps...but I have no idea.

I've heard those snaps as a possible source before, but I don't believe they could have caused it. The reason I don't believe they could have caused it, is there is no impression of them on her face (like there is when, say, someone sleeps on a surface that's not smooth and their face absorbs the wrinkles, etc). I believe her face would have done that, and as she died, the impression(s) would have remained on her face postmortem.

 

[txsvicki]

I thought Kolar believed that it might also have come from the train track. No one has mentioned it being a burn, but I wondered if it was from a cigarette or some screwdriver or tool used with model trains.

 

[bettybaby00]

Please forgive my randomness, but not sure where to post/ask....

This was on another thread, and for me, it's not believable as it has been my experience that none of this is true, and is not any way part of what is taken as fact in this case....maybe I'm wrong and any clarity would be greatly appreciated....

The family has made Burke Ramsey's interview with the psychiatrist - who was selected by the Boulder County Department of Social Services - and all of JonBenet's medical records available to the prosecutor. They also allowed pediatrician Dr. Francesco Beuf and his nurses to speak with investigators.

"Police could not have obtained those things on their own, because they don't have subpoena power," said a source. "All that was completely voluntary on the part of the family."

Full article at the link.....


http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/03/16-2.html

I'm scratching my head here.

 

[borndem]

The biggest hard-to-explain thing in all of this for me is the body being in the house.

Why didn't JR dump the body???
​

If the elder R's were working together on this thing (which I think they were), or if JR was alone in this whole thing (whether or not BR was involved, which I think he was), and he/the elders decided to have a RN, then IMO, the body has to be gone from the house. Period.

JR could have left with her and returned in darkness, and had a "legitimate" error to run -- donuts, or out of coffee or OJ, or more AA batteries for some game for the trip, or air sickness pills for JB, etc., etc.

The body just cannot be in the house. They had time, IMO. The body being there really confounds things. It would have made the cover-up so much more believable by everyone... <smh>

 

[Tawny]

The biggest hard-to-explain thing in all of this for me is the body being in the house.

Why didn't JR dump the body???
​

If the elder R's were working together on this thing (which I think they were), or if JR was alone in this whole thing (whether or not BR was involved, which I think he was), and he/the elders decided to have a RN, then IMO, the body has to be gone from the house. Period.

JR could have left with her and returned in darkness, and had a "legitimate" error to run -- donuts, or out of coffee or OJ, or more AA batteries for some game for the trip, or air sickness pills for JB, etc., etc.

The body just cannot be in the house. They had time, IMO. The body being there really confounds things. It would have made the cover-up so much more believable by everyone... <smh>

I agree. That's why I believe PR jumped the gun on calling 911. I don't think she was "supposed" to do that yet. JMO!

 

[deca]

IIRC...wasn't there a light dusting of snow on the ground? I wonder if they decided not to dump the body because there would be footprints that could possibly be traced back to them. ?
also- accidentally getting spotted
last minute worry that JBR wouldn't be found
cadaverine in the car, other evidence would be left in their car
possible security cameras in the area?

or, they just plain ran out of time.

I pretty much think the 911 call happened right when it was supposed to. If they were leaving that morning early, they had to discover her missing and call 911 at the time they did. It wouldn't make sense if they called at 9am if they had told everyone they were going to be up at 5:30 am.

 

[Tawny]

All good points, deca.

 

[FreeSafety36]

IIRC...wasn't there a light dusting of snow on the ground? I wonder if they decided not to dump the body because there would be footprints that could possibly be traced back to them. ?
also- accidentally getting spotted
last minute worry that JBR wouldn't be found
cadaverine in the car, other evidence would be left in their car
possible security cameras in the area?

or, they just plain ran out of time.

I pretty much think the 911 call happened right when it was supposed to. If they were leaving that morning early, they had to discover her missing and call 911 at the time they did. It wouldn't make sense if they called at 9am if they had told everyone they were going to be up at 5:30 am.

BBM

Actually, it would make perfect sense to wait until 9 AM to call, or even later, for that matter. It was written in the note several times that if they told anyone "she dies". It specifically warned against involving police.

All Patsy had to do was say she was too scared to call at first, for what might happen to JonBenet; then when the call didn't come, she panicked and called for help.

Waiting to call would actually make much more sense, and make her look much less guilty, than doing it the way Patsy did. By handling the situation the way she did, she completely ignored what the note said...which one might surmise means she knew there was no reason to fear that JonBenet would be killed as promised because of her mother's failure to follow instructions.

 

[borndem]

I agree. That's why I believe PR jumped the gun on calling 911. I don't think she was "supposed" to do that yet. JMO!

Exactly, Tawny. They were stuck.

I have also wondered if PR just couldn't stand the thought of JB's little body being left outside in the cold Colorado weather. Certainly JR could have put it somewhere that it would have been found fairly soon, but perhaps that's why PR made the call when she did.

What a tangled web they wove...

We'll just never know...

Did two complete amateurs commit the perfect crime? So far, yes, IMO. If this scenario had occurred in another town, would things have been handled differently? But that's a topic for another time...