Family battling Children’s Hospital to bring teen home for Christmas

[jjenny]

That is why it's very hard for me to understand why the parents concentrated on making lots of hue and cry and not doing the things that could have gotten her out of there.

It's hard for me to understand why DCF took her and stuck her in a secure psychiatric ward. Even if she did have somatoform (which I don't believe) how is she a danger to anyone? She a sick girl who can't even walk.

 

[jjenny]

So do we assume that the judge who made the custody decision is not aware of the laws?

Alan Dershowitz says the gag order was unconstitutional, and that per law parents get to decide which treatment to follow, so what am I to assume?

"Dershowitz also said a gag order imposed by the judge to stop the family from talking to the press was "without a doubt unconstitutional.""

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/...family-to-take-up-offer-from-alan-dershowitz/

 

[Linda7NJ]

DCF can be concerned all it wants. There has to be immediate danger to the child's well being for DCF to remove the child from parental custody. I fail to see how what DCF did here is even remotely legal.

She was apparently to the point that she needed ambulance transportation to a hospital three hours away ...during a blizzard. It must have been VERY serious for her parents to arrange that.

I'd venture a guess she wasn't ice skating that day.

Apparently, her home wasn't able to meet her medical needs at that time, her parents didn't believe they could meet her medical needs then..... And according to the judge, they still can't.





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[Linda7NJ]

Alan Dershowitz says the gag order was unconstitutional, and that per law parents get to decide which treatment to follow, so what am I to assume?



"Dershowitz also said a gag order imposed by the judge to stop the family from talking to the press was "without a doubt unconstitutional.""



http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/...family-to-take-up-offer-from-alan-dershowitz/

Sounds like Alan Dershowitz needs to spend some time in family court. IMO


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[Donjeta]

Alan Dershowitz says the gag order was unconstitutional, and that per law parents get to decide which treatment to follow, so what am I to assume?

"Dershowitz also said a gag order imposed by the judge to stop the family from talking to the press was "without a doubt unconstitutional.""

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/...family-to-take-up-offer-from-alan-dershowitz/

There are parents deciding which course of treatment to follow and then there is medical abuse which may involve something more concerning than just deciding to believe the wrong doctors.


I don't know. Knowing just half of the story, and realizing that if there was real medical abuse the parents would never tell, I don't feel comfortable stating with conviction that the DCF took the custody for no reason at all because there was no danger to the child.

Is Alan Dershowitz familiar with all the evidence or just the parents' version in the papers?

 

[Donjeta]

It's hard for me to understand why DCF took her and stuck her in a secure psychiatric ward. Even if she did have somatoform (which I don't believe) how is she a danger to anyone? She a sick girl who can't even walk.

Did anyone ever say she was in the psychiatric ward because she was a danger to anybody? I had got the impression that it was because they thought she needed psychiatric care.

 

[jjenny]

Did anyone ever say she was in the psychiatric ward because she was a danger to anybody? I had got the impression that it was because they thought she needed psychiatric care.

"Bader was generally library-quiet. The security and oversight were tight, because the unit specializes in treating children and teens with depression, schizophrenia, eating disorders, and other serious psychiatric illnesses that might make them a threat to themselves or to others."
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...l-uncertain/Y7qvYTGsq8QklkxUZvuUgP/story.html

 

[jjenny]

Sounds like Alan Dershowitz needs to spend some time in family court. IMO


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He just might since he wants to help with Justina's case.

 

[jjenny]

She was apparently to the point that she needed ambulance transportation to a hospital three hours away ...during a blizzard. It must have been VERY serious for her parents to arrange that.

I'd venture a guess she wasn't ice skating that day.

Apparently, her home wasn't able to meet her medical needs at that time, her parents didn't believe they could meet her medical needs then..... And according to the judge, they still can't.





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She had a flu and complications from it. If a child gets sick parents take that child to the hospital. If that means home can't meet medical needs of the child, then everybody who takes a sick child to the hospital is guilty of child abuse.

 

[Donjeta]

"Bader was generally library-quiet. The security and oversight were tight, because the unit specializes in treating children and teens with depression, schizophrenia, eating disorders, and other serious psychiatric illnesses that might make them a threat to themselves or to others."
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...l-uncertain/Y7qvYTGsq8QklkxUZvuUgP/story.html

That did not really reply my question about Justina but I notice that they also specialize in treating patients whose issues may threaten their own well being.

I think children's psychiatric wards generally tend to have good security and oversight because no parents and other guardians want their mentally ill minor children in an unsafe hospital environment.

 

[jjenny]

That did not really reply my question about Justina but I notice that they also specialize in treating patients whose issues may threaten their own well being.

I think children's psychiatric wards generally tend to have some good of security and oversight because no parents and other guardians want their mentally ill minor children in an unsafe hospital environment.

How does Justina threaten her own well being?
You think she on purpose causes all these physical medical issues?
And I don't know about other parents, but Justina's parents didn't want her in that environment at all.

 

[Donjeta]

How does Justina threaten her own well being?
You think she on purpose causes all these physical medical issues?
And I don't know about other parents, but Justina's parents didn't want her in that environment at all.

No but at the time she wasn't in their custody and I'm sure they would have been equally outraged if Justina was placed in a facility where everybody can just come and go as they like and something happened to her as a consequence of lacking security.

None of the alleged diagnoses (medical abuse, somatoform disorder or conversion disorder) imply that Justina purposefully caused her physical medical issues although none of the diagnoses, including the mito diagnosis, exclude the possibility that the sufferers have some behaviors that could end up in them harming themselves.

I have not read her psychiatric records so I really can't tell.

 

[Gardenlady]

Well of course the load is huge. Especially if DCF is going to take children like Justina and lock them up in psychiatric hospitals. What help did Justina need from DCF? Absolutely none as far as I can tell. Even assuming she has somatoform (which I don't buy for a millisecond), why put her in secure psychiatric ward? Was she a danger to anyone? This girl can't even walk, who was she a danger to?

There is nothing in the audit to suggest that Mass DcF has an overload due to an excess of children being "locked up" for "no reason". If you can't think of any reasons that any state's DCF might be overloaded, perhaps a visit to the crimes against children forum, or even the missing forum would help. Maybe looking up familial abuse statistics as well.

As for why place her in a secure psychiatric ward - there are any number of possible reasons to do so for any patient, including somatoform patients, while trying to stabilize a person's condition. Would you prefer an INsecure ward, especially for children? The fact is, none of us can say why she was put there, or that she *shouldn't* have been put there, because we rightly do not have access to her medical records.

 

[jjenny]

No but at the time she wasn't in their custody and I'm sure they would have been equally outraged if Justina was placed in a facility where everybody can just come and go as they like and something happened to her as a consequence of lacking security.

None of the alleged diagnoses (medical abuse, somatoform disorder or conversion disorder) imply that Justina purposefully caused her physical medical issues although none of the diagnoses, including the mito diagnosis, exclude the possibility that the sufferers have some behaviors that could end up in them harming themselves.

I have not read her psychiatric records so I really can't tell.

What does the fact that she is now being seen by Dr. Korson again (the doctor who diagnosed her with mitochondrial disease) imply?

 

[Donjeta]

What does the fact that she is now being seen by Dr. Korson again (the doctor who diagnosed her with mitochondrial disease) imply?

That he is a brilliant doctor who was able to diagnose Justina correctly with his keen clinical eye without doing the usual tests and everybody's just now realized that? I really don't know, I still haven't seen any of her medical records.

It might have been good to have everybody coordinating and cooperating and working together all along but I suppose it could have been difficult in the litigious situation.

On the other hand, it could have been good to have her care directed by some new people altogether. Both her original doctors and the people in Boston Children's are probably feeling somewhat invested in proving they're right and if the family threatens to sue everybody who doesn't agree with them it would take an extremely brave man to say, "Hey, I was wrong, Justina doesn't have mito, the new evidence suggests something else is going on here", if that happened to be the case.

 

[Gardenlady]

Prior to her admission at Children's, one of the problems was that her care wasn't being coordinated at all. She had had multiple procedures by multiple doctors. That can make for problems, whether deliberate or not.

 

[jjenny]

That he is a brilliant doctor who was able to diagnose Justina correctly with his keen clinical eye without doing the usual tests and everybody's just now realized that? I really don't know, I still haven't seen any of her medical records.

It might have been good to have everybody coordinating and cooperating and working together all along but I suppose it could have been difficult in the litigious situation.

On the other hand, it could have been good to have her care directed by some new people altogether. Both her original doctors and the people in Boston Children's are probably feeling somewhat invested in proving they're right and if the family threatens to sue everybody who doesn't agree with them it would take an extremely brave man to say, "Hey, I was wrong, Justina doesn't have mito, the new evidence suggests something else is going on here", if that happened to be the case.

A third opinion? BCH didn't even want to allow her parents to seek any other opinions. What right does this hospital think it has to dictate that parents of a patient can't look for other opinions?

 

[jjenny]

Prior to her admission at Children's, one of the problems was that her care wasn't being coordinated at all. She had had multiple procedures by multiple doctors. That can make for problems, whether deliberate or not.

It's coordinated now? You think DCF is somehow can spend more effort on a child than her parents? Based on the audit, large number of children taken into MA DCF care can't even get a required medical exam during the required time period.

 

[AnaTeresa]

Prior to her admission at Children's, one of the problems was that her care wasn't being coordinated at all. She had had multiple procedures by multiple doctors. That can make for problems, whether deliberate or not.

And that's what makes the case tricky, I think. With mito, it's easy to end up going from doctor to doctor, seeing different specialists, as you try to navigate diagnosis and treatment. The Slate article talks about issues with even diagnosing mito, as the biopsy to diagnose can have health implications.

Some are arguing the family was doctor shopping, but I can see how it might not be deliberate.

I'm not here thinking that DCF is a bogeyman. I think they are understaffed, and often miss the kids that need them most. Conversely, sometimes they attack cases for political or other reasons, almost as if they have an axe to grind, when their intervention isn't necessary. With my job, I've seen both ends of the spectrum. I don't know what the answer is. But as it stands, with the information I have, I fall on the side of the family at this point.

 

[Donjeta]

A third opinion? BCH didn't even want to allow her parents to seek any other opinions. What right does this hospital think it has to dictate that parents of a patient can't look for other opinions?

It might be a thirteenth or a thirty third opinion at this point if there's anything in the doctor shopping allegations.

As long as the parents have custody a hospital can make recommendations and strongly suggest certain courses of action but if the state takes emergency custody as they did they can pretty much dictate a lot of stuff.

What would you have doctors do if they suspect medical abuse? Say, right, go on your merry way and find some other doctors who will prescribe her more pain killers and do more unnecessary surgery on her?