Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[Elley Mae]

My FIL was recently helicopter airlifted from an MVA site less than 40 miles from a level one trauma center at a cost of $25,000.

I agree that whatever insurance they have will not cover transport costs to move Jahi's body to a nursing facility. They are hoping to crowd-source funds.

In reading the different articles and reading every word that is being used it's my opinion that the hospital should just sit back until Monday at 5:00 or an injunction/stay what ever from a court to stop the removal of the ventilator.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hospital-wont-help-brain-dead-teen-jahi-mcmath-move-to-nursing-home/

"We lost the facility that we were originally going to go with," said Omari Sealey, Jahi's uncle and the family's spokesman.

Lawyer Douglas Straus also said the Alameda County coroner needs to sign off on the move "since we are dealing with the body of a person who has been declared legally dead."

The girl's relatives had announced on Thursday that they had found a nursing home in the San Francisco Bay Area that was willing to care for the girl if she had the tubes. Within hours, the hospital's chief of pediatrics issued a statement saying Children's would not cooperate because it "does not believe that performing surgical procedures on the body of a deceased person is an appropriate medical practice."

bbm, I do wonder why the hospital even made this statement? If they are keeping her alive until monday 5:00 unless the family has a place for her why is the hospital even entertaining these complaints/statements from the lawyer/family?

idk jmo

It seems to me that the lawyer may be trying to get the hospital to slip up and do or say something that would indicate that she is alive. I think the hospital should be quiet.

 

[gitana1]

I think more people are having that same reaction. When someone is legally dead, that's that. It's sad, it's tragic, but it's a fact of life. More and more, I can't understand what the family is looking for. If they need grief counselling, that's what they should have, but refusing to accept the facts is not helpful. Thinking of a child decomposing while machines prolong the process is ... well, it's a terrible thought.

I'm not. I think a lot of people want to force these people to accept and want to rub their noses in it, frankly. I think if it were my child, I'd not want to keep their corpse breathing. But I'm not in their shoes. They may have different beliefs, different feelings.

And if Jahi is dead then she's not experiencing anything happening to her body. The only ones who would suffer from wAtching her corpse breathe would be her family. A brain dead body would eventually shut down, probably rather quickly. So again, I ask, what is everyone's stake in this? Why the anger? Why the determination to have these people, whose shoes we are not in, feel exactly how we feel? Walk a mile.

 

[wendiesan]

A little background on the very conservative Dr. Paul A. Byrne.

Medical School
Saint Louis University/School of Medicine: Graduated in 1957

Internship Hospital
St. Mary's Health Centre
Internship, Transitional Year, 1957 - 1958

St. Mary's Health Center
Residency, Pediatrics, 1958 - 1961

Residency Hospital
Sisters of St. Mary's Cardinal Glennon Memorial Hospital for Children
Founder of Neonatal Intensive Care Unit

Specialties and Clinical Interests
Neonatal Medicine
Neonatal Ethics

Board Certifications
Americal Board of Pediatrics, Neonatal-Perinatal Medicine, 1975 - present
American Board of Pediatrics, Pediatrics, 1963 - present
MO State Medical License, Active through 2013
OH State Medical License, Activie through 2013

Professor of Pediatrics at University of Toledo, School of Medicine

http://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-paul-byrne-xqtk5/background-check
http://health.usnews.com/doctors/paul-byrne-212262

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/13.12.24+McMath+proceeding.pdf
Case No. RG 13-707598
Arguments against appointing Dr. Paul A. Byrne as Independent Expert
(by Douglas C. Straus, Brian W. Franklin, Noel M. Caughman)

"…the request of Petitioner Latasha Winkfield to appoint Paul Byrne as a second independent expert should be denied because such an appointment is unnecessary and Dr. Byrne, who is neither a neurologist nor a California physician, is not qualified and has already taken a position in this matter…"

 

[LarkBunting]

If ever there was a need for experienced, seasoned mental health professionals, this is it. This is one of the most extreme, saddest cases of parental denial that I have come across. (True, it may have moved on to include factors beyond parental denial, now that media and lawyers & courts & general public are involved...)
What is it now, three doctors, each independent of the others, that have agreed that this poor girl is brain dead? She is gone. Let her go.
As a parent, I would be incoherent with grief if faced with this situation. But, I fail to see the point of keeping a deceased person hooked up to machines to carry on a facade that she's alive or may be coming back to life. It's hard for me to understand how not one person in this child's family seems to be the voice of reason to the others.
They have my prayers, but Jahi does, especially. I pray that she finds peace & is released from the deceased shell that is keeping her spirit tied to a hospital bed. (IMO)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sonya610]

I understand why the coroner is taking that position, but I have to wonder if that's setting a very dangerous precedent. So now any family with a brain dead family member with, say, potentially viable organs, can remove the patient from the hospital so long as there's a place that will accept them and transportation provided. The implications of that are mind blowing imo.

jmo

How is that mind blowing? The idea that the family/estate could possibly be paid compensation for the organs vs. the hospital getting the organs for free?

Now if the patient was NOT brain dead it might be worrisome from the perspective of organ harvesting.

I am not a fan of vital organ donation for various reasons but if my loved ones could benefit from it I would be all for it.

 

[momrids6]

When 'life support' is really 'death support'
Recent cases 'give impression dead can come back to life'

"I think these cases have been botched, horribly," he said. "They're giving the impression that dead people can come back to life."

In Caplan's view, it doesn't do any families any good if hospitals ask them about mechanically continuing biological function in a brain dead patient. He says doctors should be more transparent about the finality of brain death.

"It just creates the possibility of a terrible scenario like the one that's unfolded (in Jahi's case), where the parents don't really understand and then start to resist any removal of machines because they just want to hope that the worst possible thing did not happen," he said. "I don't think it's kind to not be clear when death happens."

Medicine can't cure everything, but we act as though death is optional, she said.

We may have technology called "life support," but even that can't last forever.

http://www.ksat.com/lifestyle/healt...8162/23678478/-/item/1/-/nqd7bjz/-/index.html

 

[Sonya610]

Medicine can't cure everything, but we act as though death is optional, she said.

We may have technology called "life support," but even that can't last forever.

The case with Jahi is a rarity. I think life support is more often abused in the cases of the elderly (very elderly stroke victims and others that have no ability to interact or move about and are sustained in hospital beds for months etc...).

To me that is a real abuse of medical technology and the potential for it to be overly abused is enormous, is every elderly person going to be kept artificially alive for months or years because their families can't deal with death?

Studies have shown some of the lowest income folks with very little education are the most likely to insist on artificial life sustaining measures at all costs (well assuming someone else is paying for it). The more educated individuals are far more likely to go with hospice care and let nature take it's course.

 

[Jacie Estes]

See previous post...

After this case, I'm now a firm believer that there will always be a business, as well as a professional person, that will do anything for $$. If insurance pays, that's the bottom line.

The hospital knows already that this will cost them, in the form of malpractice; they are minimizing that cost. If Jahi is placed in another facility, those costs/efforts will be factored into a malpractice. As a business, they are protecting their bottom line.

 

[jjenny]

The hospital knows already that this will cost them, in the form of malpractice; they are minimizing that cost. If Jahi is placed in another facility, those costs/efforts will be factored into a malpractice. As a business, they are protecting their bottom line.

CA already has a limit on how much can be awarded.

 

[Sonya610]

The hospital knows already that this will cost them, in the form of malpractice; they are minimizing that cost. If Jahi is placed in another facility, those costs/efforts will be factored into a malpractice. As a business, they are protecting their bottom line.

But what about the legal implications? Not the lawyers filing wrongful death or malpractice claims but licensing and such? There is a death certificate so I would think there are severe restrictions on the businesses that could accept and house a dead body.

While some states allow individuals to take their dead home and prepare them for burial this is different. A business that is NOT licensed to accept and store the deceased could possibly be running afoul of the law.

 

[jjenny]

They still need surgeries done in order to accept the legally deceased person.
Hospital refusing to carry them out.
So how is that going to work.

 

[Jacie Estes]

But what about the legal implications? Not the lawyers filing wrongful death claims but licensing and such? There is a death certificate so I would think there are severe restrictions on the businesses that could accept and house a dead body.

While some states allow individuals to take their dead home and prepare them for burial this is different. A business that is NOT licensed to accept and store the deceased could possibly be running afoul of the law.

The criteria that MAY be used by the family, religious beliefs, falls outside of business. There are facilities that have said they will take her. It may well be a precedent setting case.

I feel for this family; I will offer prayers for them this weekend because compassion is needed.

 

[Sonya610]

They still need surgeries done in order to accept the legally deceased person.
Hospital refusing to carry them out.
So how is that going to work.

I wonder why the hospital is refusing, will it up their liability if she is kept artificially alive longer at another facility?

The surgeries surely don't cost much (a trach and a stomach tube?) so that can't be the reason. Wondering why they don't just perform those procedures and let the family wheel her out the door.

 

[jjenny]

The criteria that MAY be used by the family, religious beliefs, falls outside of business. There are facilities that have said they will take her. It may well be a precedent setting case.

I feel for this family; I will offer prayers for them this weekend because compassion is needed.

In order for these facilities to take her, she needs surgeries done. Which hospital is refusing to do. So how are these facilities going to take her?

 

[jjenny]

I wonder why the hospital is refusing, will it up their liability if she is kept artificially alive longer at another facility?

The surgeries surely don't cost much (a trach and a stomach tube?) so that can't be the reason. Wondering why they don't just perform those procedures and let the family wheel her out the door.

Hosptial says she is dead and it's not appropriate to carry out surgeries on the dead.

 

[nomoresorrow]

(B/UNDERLINEDBM)

The case with Jahi is a rarity. I think life support is more often abused in the cases of the elderly (very elderly stroke victims and others that have no ability to interact or move about and are sustained in hospital beds for months etc...).

To me that is a real abuse of medical technology and the potential for it to be overly abused is enormous, is every elderly person going to be kept artificially alive for months or years because their families can't deal with death?

Studies have shown some of the lowest income folks with very little education are the most likely to insist on artificial life sustaining measures at all costs (well assuming someone else is paying for it). The more educated individuals are far more likely to go with hospice care and let nature take it's course.

I hope you have a link for this so-called "valid" study you speak of because I personally find this comment to be laced with prejudice... TIA

 

[Softail]

Video of the mother talking about how Jahi needs to be fed! :doh: She really needs some professional help so she can accept the fact that her daughter has died. So sad.... :cry:

Jahi McMath's family seeks to move brain-dead girl to another facility


http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/26/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

 

[Trino]

A nursing facility in SoCal? So, how's that going to work with the family who lives in Oakland?

 

[SwampMama]

I can understand the hospital's point of view. Jahi has been legally dead for over 2 weeks. The hospital has given so much leeway and special accommodations to her family such as arranging for THREE extra independent doctors to confirm that Jahi was indeed brain dead (after the first 2 doctors declared her brain dead), a private room to meet in, allowing them more guests, assigning social worker/counselor people to help them, etc.

Remember at first the family said "just let us have her for Christmas", and then they wanted a SIXTH doctor to assess Jahi and they got him and he agreed with the pervious 5 doctors, so then they wanted 7th doctor, The judge denied that, now they want to hospital to do surgery and help them move her. I sense that nothing will ever be enough for them to help them accept this until her heart stops beating.

The family has been very upset with the hospital and have said some things that are just NOT true. Yet they refuse to allow the hospital to speak out on the facts of the case. So we only hear the family's side, and we can see that they refuse to accept reality and say things that are clearly false.

I do understand that the hospital likely has some responsibility in what happened to Jahi but I am sure it was not a malicious act by a doctor or CHO that caused her medical problems. There is no way that they wanted this to happen and I am sure they are affected by it. I'm sure they feel very bad about this but the family's denial and anger makes them difficult to deal with.

As bad as I feel for the family (and I truly do), it is time for them to accept that Jahi is gone. I do not think allowing her to linger and deteriorate is really the best option at this point. It is pointless, incredibly complex, completely unheard of and possibly cruel (although I understand it is not meant to be cruel).

But how else can you describe what lies ahead for Jahi as she deteriorates more each day? There is nothing in life that she can derive joy or comfort from anymore. She will be in the care of strangers.

I am also beginning to feel that it is unhealthy and somewhat cruel to allow this to continue on for her family. They are in denial, in limbo, awaiting a miracle that will never be. They are fighting a fight that really won't change a thing except for the location that Jahi dies at. It does no good to accommodate or humor their delusions any longer. Yes, I feel it was right to accommodate them at first. I had no real problem with them having Jahi for Christmas. But now it is after Christmas and they still show no signs of accepting the truth.

I also think it will cause many problems in the future when dealing with other families who refuse to accept brain death. The law and the medical facilities need to establish now that this is NOT going to be an acceptable option for future brain dead patients.

No, I cannot imagine how painful it is to be in their shoes. I do feel badly for them absolutely. But death and loss is a part of life and life does go on after our loved ones pass. But we ALL have had to accept death and loss. I simply don't think it is truly compassionate for anyone to humor their incredible denial any longer.

I know this sounds harsh to some. I'm sorry for that. I just think it is time that Jahi's family to accept that Jahi is physically gone and to hold out hope for anything else is mentally unhealthy for them.

 

[Sonya610]

I hope you have a link for this so-called "valid" study you speak of because I personally find this comment to be laced with prejudice... TIA

Here you go: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10405016