Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

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  • #121
@zuri - what is dr. zuri's opinion regarding the decision to perform what seems to be elective/non-essential surgery on a morbidly obese minor? I would think that unless her health was somehow gravely compromised by the tonsils, no doc in his right mind would have agreed to perform it.

jmo

We do non-essential surgery on morbidly obese people Every. Day. Of. The. Week. Coast to coast, big hospitals, and small ones.

Really. I am really not kidding. We SELDOM cancel cases.

Bunionectomies and hammertoes on 400 lb+ patient. Cataracts on 400 lb+. Toenail removals. Male adult circumcisions. Knee replacements. Hip replacements. Carpal tunnels. Tubal ligations. Hysterectomies. Urinary procedures. Purely elective C-sections on 300 lb plus women. Etc. Etc. Etc.

And by the way, this doesn't include the rather urgent cases and emergencies we do for the morbidly obese.

We don't get to choose our patient's weight or co-existing conditions. We do the case we have. And we do our best. And we worry. A lot.
 
  • #122
The higher someone's BMI is, the higher their risk during surgery. That's why weight loss surgery can't be done on some of the people who need it most. They simply can't operate on some people because of their weight.

People with an extremely low BMI are at risk during surgery too.

And you have folks like me & my kids. I pick/know the anesthesia staff before the surgeon- ie. c-sections, gallbladder, etc- as we do not handle regular anesthesia- have had the genetic testing as well as Malignant Hyperthermia. We have medic alert info in every car, on file with the hospitals, in our bags/my purse, and the 911 center-as we cannot have lactated ringers. 36 anesthesthia staff from around the region came to my 4th son's hand surgery- as they had never done/ seen a mito kid with a metabolic disease of muscle that was so outwardly healthy/normal. The anesthetists in my local hospitals are amazing- and I live in a rural area with one hospital per county.

My 3rd son's artery opened up after T & A- and it was most definitely a surgical problem.
 
  • #123
Interesting that they wanted to keep her overnight. I wonder if the surgeon wanted to make sure there were no breathing problems. Thanks too for posting all the articles. This is just so sad.

She would have been scheduled for an overnight, or "23 hour" stay due to her size and presumably documented sleep apnea. She almost certainly would have been declined for care at an outpatient surgery center-- she was at a major pedes hospital, which was a good place.
 
  • #124
She will still die. The feeding tube will not keep her alive for very long, in combination with ICU treatments (vent and IV meds, etc).

At best, she has a 13 year young heart that has sustained a cardiac arrest and resuscitation. She has days to weeks before her heart stops permanently. (BTW, that may make her a declined donor, if the family eventually seeks donor status for her. Depends on her heart and the length and circumstances of her arrest, and everything else that has happened to her.)

If she has profound cerebral edema (brain swelling), that is not a "static" state. It will increase and deteriorate, and the products of the chemical irritation will accumulate. She will begin to have irregular and erratic heartbeat rhythm, and will need support of her blood pressure from drugs-- which will become increasingly ineffective. "Mechanical" death will occur when her brain herniates and the heart can no longer beat.

The feeding tube is a moot point. She can absorb from it for a few hours or days or so-- the IV is the main source of her fluids.

Eventually (hours to weeks) her gut will shut down and the feeding tube will be pointless. Multi system organ failure is the next scenario-- in days to weeks. There will be no "discharge" to home care or a nursing home. She is brain dead-- that is not a static state. It deteriorates, and usually in hours to days.

The ventilator is a machine, and will "pump air" until it is shut off. I have personally had DNR (do not resuscitate) patients with a flat line ECG in ICU (before I went to anesthesia school) who we could not turn the vent off till the resident came to pronounce death.
 
  • #125
Fascinating article/discussion among many doctors from different hospitals (and countries) about their protocol in dealing with "Brain death and uncooperative families". Very interesting and insightful reading.

http://www.ccm-l.org/discussion1/Ethics/uncoop.html

From the link: (using initials of those who contributed these opinions and experiences.

TB says "Here in Virginia, and in most states of which I am aware, the diagnosis of death by brain criteria is death, and no legal action can be taken to reverse the diagnosis or to prevent one from discontinuing support which is futile for the patient (and the only purpose of which is to maintain the organs for potential transplantation).

That being said, a family that cannot accept the diagnosis of death by cerebral criteria is, in my experience anyway, unlikely to accede to organ donation within a useable (for the organs) period of time. My own feeling, and practice, has been to put the patient out of the ICU in a regular bed (may require a special dispensation for the ventilator in some hospitals), and allow the family to stay with the corpse for as long as they wish. Without fluids or vasopressors the blood pressure is almost never maintained for more than a day or two. We don't draw blood, do chest films, or anything else except occasional suctioning to decrease the family's distress from the sound of rattling secretions. I know there are many people who think it is wrong to keep ventilating a corpse, but as long as resources are not being diverted from the living and potentially salvagable, I don't see this as a major ethical problem"


LB (speaking of a case he had, nothing to do with Jahi) says: "I met with the family with our transplant coordinator/couselor. I told them of the brain death protocol result, and that we would be ready to turn off the vent at any time. Just as the counselor brought up the concept of donation, they were letting us know that it was going to take a couple of days for them to "let us" disconnect the vent. At that point I knw I had a problem. It is difficult to explain to the family that the ICU is not a funeral home, that the patient is already dead, and that we can't hold a wake for him here. Hospital rules prohibit a non DNR to go the the floor, and , despite his brain death, if he doesn't have a signed DNR, he can't go to the floor (I am in the process of working this out). I then get the statement that I dread from families in this area - "You are only treating us this way becasue we are hispanic; you wouldn't be doing this if we were white and had insurance."

Despite this, after sessions alone with the counselor...... they are still clinging to the belief that they have to "allow" us to disconnect the vent. I then get the other thing that I have dreaded the last few months - the statement that they will go to court."


Very insightful reading, the discussion does not mention or discuss Jahi but you can see how similar situations are dealt with. It also evolves into some of the matters of organ donation but mostly it is about a family that refuses to "allow" their loved one to be disconnected from the life support, even though the patient is actually already dead and has been but is simply being kept oxygenated and ventilated. The hospital does not need their permission or consent to remove this support. It is not so much "support" as it it is prolonging the inevitable.

Once brain death is declared, the patient is considered dead. The insurance companies do NOT pay for hospital care of dead people so the hospitals have to bear the cost of these exceedingly expensive extra weeks of care, when they know it is all in vain.

I can see that her family has problems facing the reality of the situation, even before the surgery took place. She stated Jahi was a perfectly healthy child when we know in fact she was morbidly obese and had the surgery at Children'd Hosp, including her pre-planned post opt in ICU, which indicates there were serious concerns about Jahi from the medical people from the beginning. Her mother stated "When I walked her into that hospital, she was perfectly fine, there was nothing wrong with her. She had no health problems.'

Her mother also states that Jahi is in a coma and we know that is not the case. She is brain dead, as verified by 2 doctor/experts doing a series of tests at different times which all that was legally required to remove the life support. But the hospital also arranged that THREE MORE experts unaffiliated with Children's and either selected by or approved by Ms. McMath's family/next of kin -- examined Jahi and came to the same conclusion.
 
  • #126
Apparently a family member is running a facebook page about keeping Jahi on life support and have posted an announcement that they will be marching on Monday while the family is in court. They will gather outside of Children's Hospital in Oakland, CA at 9:30am and begin marching at 10am. They say this is LEGAL as long as the marchers keep moving. They would need to permission to stop in the streets, but if the marchers keep moving there is nothing "they" (hospital? Police?) can do. They want as many people as possible to show up (including media, i am sure).

Ok that march has me rather peeved. There are hundred of other patients and families in that hospital who do not deserve having a demonstration and chaos surrounding the hospital. Why not have it by the COURT where the family will apparently be and since the march is to "support the family in court"?

Staging it at the hospital is very inconsiderate to others who are dealing with ill children as well. The family wants sympathy, compassion, even legal rulings for Jahi and her family but they can not even give common courtesy to the patients, families and employees of the hospital who have NOTHING to do with Jahi's case. Severely ill children who are hospitalized do not need the disruption and chaos that this will cause.

I am not pleased about this at all and this may may be the final straw that saps my understanding for the family's cause. I do not wish to seem cruel or mean hearted. Yes, Jahi's death is an extreme tragedy but we have ALL experienced tragic deaths and have had to accept and cope.
 
  • #127
This family is going through hell. I believe the mother said something like by the time they even knew something was going wrong it was already too late. I absolutely can understand why she would feel enormous guilt, the pain has to be unreal. I don't understand why there wasn't more precaution taken given Jahi's weight.

Yes there are risk factors with every surgery but NO family expects to find themselves having to take their child off of life support when only hours before they were a fully functioning human being. Doctors, nurses, specialists, they all seem superhuman and so much responsibility is placed on their shoulders, that when a 13 year old that could talk, walk, and tonsils aside could continue with her life after this surgery as normally as others would...of course this family would not be able to accept that nothing could be done.

I'm sure the hospital staff did everything possible for Jahi and her family. They seem to be complying with the family as best as they can. it doesn't make accepting brain death any easier. The suddenness of it all is a hard slap in the face for anyone, and understandably they are clinging for as long as they can. you could give me every fact, every test result, the 0.000000001% chance that my kid would not make it and I would still be carried out kicking and screaming.

I hope they can just keep her on life support until Christmas or after. Just give them that.
 
  • #128
We do non-essential surgery on morbidly obese people Every. Day. Of. The. Week. Coast to coast, big hospitals, and small ones.

Really. I am really not kidding. We SELDOM cancel cases.

Bunionectomies and hammertoes on 400 lb+ patient. Cataracts on 400 lb+. Toenail removals. Male adult circumcisions. Knee replacements. Hip replacements. Carpal tunnels. Tubal ligations. Hysterectomies. Urinary procedures. Purely elective C-sections on 300 lb plus women. Etc. Etc. Etc.

And by the way, this doesn't include the rather urgent cases and emergencies we do for the morbidly obese.

We don't get to choose our patient's weight or co-existing conditions. We do the case we have. And we do our best. And we worry. A lot.

The reason I asked is because I'm aware of a similar situation where elective surgery was performed on an obese adult who arrested and died. There were many issues raised in terms of what all was done wrong, but the decision to proceed with the surgery in the first place was in the top three, if not the main issue. Iirc, in that case, she had been made to wait at least once before.

So, re your last sentence, are you saying that the hospital MUST do elective surgery on a morbidly obese patient. Or only if the doc orders/approves it. It's been my understanding that a doc can always decline unless there's a life-threatening emergency. Also, in your field (not even gonna try to spell it w/o looking lol) are you literally required to do whatever case you're scheduled to do. Or is it more a matter of that's just "how it is?"
 
  • #129
If the child is brain dead, no amount of protest is going to bring her back to life.
 
  • #130
Respectfully snipped. My comments in red.

As I stated, Dr. Zuri was responding to info I was giving him. He would certainly defer to your expertise in the OR. As for the medical explanations, I wrote them as. I understood them. I apologize if I made errors.
 
  • #131
She would have been scheduled for an overnight, or "23 hour" stay due to her size and presumably documented sleep apnea. She almost certainly would have been declined for care at an outpatient surgery center-- she was at a major pedes hospital, which was a good place.

Different hospitals have different ways of doing things. After reading that this was not a simple tonsillectomy and that other procedures were done as well was very enlightening and some things make more sense. I worked at HUP and UNC in their ICUs and was fascinated how they did things differently. I have never worked at a surgicenter, but have been a patient at one several times. ITA she would not have been a candidate for one. Going to a children's hospital was the right call IMO too. I really appreciated your pointing out that she should have been taken back to the OR. ITA. We have only heard one side of the story so far for the most part. I hope we can get a full understanding once the hospital speaks to get the full picture. As a medical professional, there are cases that affect the way we do things, can learn from, and make a difference. JMV
 
  • #132
bbm/rsbm:

The hospital's court filing described Jahi's operation as a "complicated surgical procedure" that included an adenotonsillectomy, a separate procedure to remove throat tissue and a third procedure to remove excess nose tissue.

Thank you for posting this. :seeya:
 
  • #133
  • #134
For our med posters - if this combo of procedures (rather than a 'plain old tonsillectomy') would influence your line of thoughts & comments:

The patient was admitted "for a complicated surgical procedure, consisting of
an adenotonsillectomy,
uvulopalatopharyngoplasty
submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates."

Per http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_24775262/jahi-her-mom-and-13-days-at-childrens?source=JBarTicker in the hospital's response to mom's petition for a TRO. It's in a docstoc box, at the end of the article.


Hope I spelled these correctly, as I could not cut & paste from link.:seeya:
 
  • #135
I hope that no one sees my displeasure with the march as being unfeeling about what Jahi's family is going thru. I definitely empathize with their situation and can see that they are devastated and having a hard time with her death. They cling to the hope of a miracle and I totally understand that.

I dealt with the sudden unexpected death of my beloved fiance and remember that even after he was cremated that I still just wanted him back and would have done anything to do that. The depth of grief and despair are so overwhelming and I completely understand that. I have experienced it. I imagine it is a thousand times worse when losing a child.

They are obviously having great difficulty coming to terms with this. I completely get that. Dealing with a brain death is such a complex issue in understanding how futile it is and how the hospital can just pull the plug (so to speak) on a loved one who has a heartbeat. You would think that removing life support would be the family's choice but in fact it is the hospitals decision in accordance with the brain death" of the patient.

So this case has been very enlightening to me in many ways. Perhaps that will be Jahi's legacy, that her story will help with educating the public on what brain death is and what happens and why. I hope that her death will not be in vain and that it can lead to helping others in the same situation in the years to come.

It can be hard to comprehend how the patient is considered dead to the insurance companies (who refuse to pay for further care, because the patient consider dead per their criteria with dealing with it).

Complexities with people equating brain death with coma have been a huge issue here, when in fact, the two are completely different. There is so much to absorb and comprehend in this situation, even for myself and I consider myself to be somewhat knowledgeable because I have worked as a first responder and enjoy reading about true medical cases and medical stuff. So for a grieving parent to have to comprehend this must be so overwhelming.

I can understand a parent's wish to have one last Christmas with their child, even if that child will in no way participate or even know what is going on. I can understand not wanting my child to die right before Christmas and holding out for a miracle, especially at Christmas.

It is obvious that the family is simply not able to accept the reality at this point. I have no problem with yet another expert coming in to assess Jahi and to make his determination, even though there have already been the required 2 and then an additional 3 more experts that the family chose/approved of. The judge simply ruled to have yet another expert assess Jahi and then he will make a determination of what to do. But how many experts do the family need until they accept the inevitable truth? 6? 10? an infinite number until they get the answer they want?

I do agree that this family obviously needs more drastic and compassionate measures in dealing with Jahi and the removal of life support. They do need special accommodations because of their limited ability to cope and comprehend that Jahi is gone. They have already had extraordinary accommodation as usually brain dead patients are only given up to 5 days (and that is highly unusual) for the family to gather, or for preparations for organ donation, to be taken into consideration. But that's it- 5 days. And Jahi is going on her 10th day now and her family shows no sign of acceptance.

I have the feeling that the doctor who will be assessing Jahi tomorrow will come to the same conclusion as the previous 5. At that point, the judge should rule that Jahi will be removed from life support on a set day and time. I do not object to waiting till Dec 26 but it must be understood by her family that that is the final word and they must accept it, no matter how difficult it may be for them to accept. Jahi should be moved to a private area, and be kept on the ventilator until the given time and then that is it. There should be minimal care and intrusion on the family.

If the family is stillholding out for a miracle and their faith in prayer, then their miracle would happen if Jahi were to spontaneous start breathing when the ventilator is removed. If she does not, then they must accept it as God's will. ( I say these things, not as an indicator of my beliefs but of theirs because they are a prayerful family of faith). Put this in God's/Jesus hands and take comfort in his promises of an eternal life from John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life".

I hope they have a good pastor who is counseling them and helping them come to terms with this and not just portraying examples like Lazarus rising for the dead as proof of what God will do if they just have faith and telling them they just need more faith and that the family has the power to accomplish this miracle if they just keep fighting and praying more.

My objection is simply to a demonstration outside the hospital as "support for the family in court". It is disruptive and disrespectful to the families of other patients who may be facing similar issues with children with deadly illnesses who are also having to face what Jahi's family is facing. There is no need to upset these families and subject them and their children to this. I simply see this as a bully tactic to try and force the hospital to bend to their will. and I do not like it. I have no objection to them gathering someplace else. That would be a lovely gesture, if it is a peaceful and prayerful event. The family needs comfort.

I truly hope that Jahi's family can find a sign in this that lets them know it is ok to let go and allow the inevitable to happen and find peace in it. They will be in my thoughts and prayer.

I did not wish for anyone to think that I did not care about Jahi, her family and what happens to them. As you can, I actually do care very much and they have been much on my mind in the past few days.
 
  • #136
Not trying to start a religious discussion, but religion is part of this familys' life and many other folks, too. God says the life is in the blood. If the heart still beats then there is life even if it is through technology. God gave us technology, so imo, the hospital should keep people on support if the family wishes. If the brain won't work and death from system shutdown will take place in days, then respect their wishes, and let their God decide since this technology is already in place.
 
  • #137
  • #138
Not trying to start a religious discussion, but religion is part of this familys' life and many other folks, too. God says the life is in the blood. If the heart still beats then there is life even if it is through technology. God gave us technology, so imo, the hospital should keep people on support if the family wishes. If the brain won't work and death from system shutdown will take place in days, then respect their wishes, and let their God decide since this technology is already in place.

If the family expects a miracle, then why is the machine needed at all?
If we expect that God will decide, God can decide to let the child live if the machine is turned off.
 
  • #139
If the family expects a miracle, then why is the machine needed at all?
If we expect that God will decide, God can decide to let the child live if the machine is turned off.

I'm thinking more about His choice of when death occurs than a miracle. The family choice, the technology, etc could be in God's will for this girl just as it might be his ultimate will in cases where families go ahead and disconnect life support.
 
  • #140
I'm thinking more about His choice of when death occurs than a miracle. The family choice, the technology, etc could be in God's will for this girl just as it might be his ultimate will in cases where families go ahead and disconnect life support.

Imo, nothing that's going on right now has to do with faith or God or miracles. It's got to do with damages allocated to pain and suffering. The longer you "live" the higher they are. Period.
 
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