Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[Sonya610]

Forgive me, please, if I'm being ignorant here, but if she is deceased wouldn't her body be decomposing?

Scroll back. If artificial breathing is continued on a corpse and the heart continues to beat the organs will fail and the limbs can start to decompose.

So yes, she will start decomposing, it just might take a few weeks/months.

 

[Softail]

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24807859/jahi-mcmath-family-trying-raise-money-get-13

From the link:

This news of an out-of-state hospital differs from reports earlier Friday when Jahi's family and attorney said that there was a long-term care facility in Southern California that would take her. Early Saturday morning no one could be reached for comment.

The articles I've read talk about a facility in New York. :waitasec:

Sealey said they are now in talks with three other nursing homes - two in Los Angeles and one in New York - that may be willing to take her.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hospital-wont-help-brain-dead-teen-jahi-mcmath-move-to-nursing-home/

 

[Softail]

Scroll back. If artificial breathing is continued on a corpse and the heart continues to beat the organs will fail and the limbs can start to decompose.

So yes, she will start decomposing, it just might take a few weeks/months.

Last year my step kids lost their mom. She was brain dead, and on a ventilator. Within 2 days , her hands and feet had already started to turn black. I hate that they had to see that. It was horrible. :notgood:

 

[Sha]

I am so sorry.

Last year my step kids lost their mom. She was brain dead, and on a ventilator. Within 2 days , her hands and feet had already started to turn black. I hate that they had to see that. It was horrible. :notgood:

 

[K_Z]

Gastric bypass for a 13 year old child? Thud!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Snipped for focus.

Yes, unfortunately there is a growing need to do something drastic to help morbidly obese adolescents. At bariatric centers, adolescents are becoming pretty common, for both lap bands and roux en Y procedures. It is a terrible problem to treat. Surgery is ONE part of the treatment, not the entire treatment. And it take s a lot of work up over months and months to get approval for the surgery. Sometimes patients have to lose a certain amount of weight just to qualify, to improve their suitability and decrease risks, and demonstrate that they (and their families) are committed to the follow up regimen of medical, dietary, and psycho social therapy.

This is a good article from 2010.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/health/16teen.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.gofundme.com/Jahi-Mcmath

89 pledges

$2,460 raised in day 1.

46 1/2 hours to go.

 

[Trino]

http://www.gofundme.com/Jahi-Mcmath

I am astounded at a few of the contributors comments. While some comments are faith based, some really believe this child can recover.

I'm assuming the transport will be majorly expensive. Unless a major donor appears, I don't think the family will meet the needed amount to transport Jahi, but they will have the amount raised to use for whatever.

 

[Elley Mae]

Jahi's family is due in court Monday and has already said they will ask the judge for more time

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...ahi-McMath-Family-Must-Arrange-237554381.html


Facing a court-ordered 5 p.m. Monday deadline to pull Jahi off her ventilator at Children's Hospital, Jahi's family is scrambling to find a way to move her to another facility.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...th-hospital-open-transferring-brain-dead-teen

However, the facility requires a tracheotomy and a feeding tube to be inserted first in order to make a transfer possible. Time to hash out the logistics is running out because the court order keeping Jahi on a ventilator expires Monday at 5 p.m.


http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9374667

bbm It seems at this time they have not found a place to accept her.
I looked and did not see, is there a link to the court order? TIA

 

[otto]

Jahi's family is due in court Monday and has already said they will ask the judge for more time

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...ahi-McMath-Family-Must-Arrange-237554381.html


Facing a court-ordered 5 p.m. Monday deadline to pull Jahi off her ventilator at Children's Hospital, Jahi's family is scrambling to find a way to move her to another facility.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...th-hospital-open-transferring-brain-dead-teen

However, the facility requires a tracheotomy and a feeding tube to be inserted first in order to make a transfer possible. Time to hash out the logistics is running out because the court order keeping Jahi on a ventilator expires Monday at 5 p.m.


http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9374667

bbm It seems at this time they have not found a place to accept her.
I looked and did not see, is there a link to the court order? TIA

Given that this has lawsuit written all over it, I wonder whether any doctor would be willing to perform a tracheotomy and insert a feeding tube on a deceased person. Clearly there is no obligation for any doctor to do the procedures, and anyone that would do the procedure must realize that if anything goes wrong at any time in relation to those procedures, there could be all sorts of consequences for the medical practitioner.

 

[Cubby]

Medical insruance is for the living.
Here is someone who is legally dead, yet large funds are supposedly going to be spend on keeping the body attached to machines.

The attorney was so vague with his statement about the insurance coverage, until we hear specifically what is being covered I have to assume it was the scheduled procedure and not costs associated with treatment on a legally deceased person.

 

[SophieRose]

How long can Jahi last?

I found different ideas... One said the longest recorded (no validity for this) was 210 days. Another said the kidneys, liver, and heart would deteroriate and shut down - seemed relatively soon.

(Note: I found no mention of pituitary and thyroid glands, per Dr. Byrne.)

How will her family see her? Will they make weekly visits to SoCal?

I cannot help but wonder about the other 3 children. No mention of them. I wonder if they're younger.

Anyone keeping tabs on the amount that's being raised by the family's website?

Jahi is the second of her mother's four children. She has a younger brother and sister and I believe an older sister.

 

[K_Z]

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24807859/jahi-mcmath-family-trying-raise-money-get-13

The family of Jahi McMath are trying to raise money to help pay for the cost of moving the brain-dead 13-year-old from the Oakland hospital where she has been since Dec. 9.

At some point Friday, Jahi's mother Latasha Nailah Winkfield created the "Jahi McMath Fund" on popular fundraising web site Go Fund Me.

In the explanation of the need for the money on the site Winkfield says "I am raising money for my daughter Jahi McMath so that she can be airlifted to a hospital out of state. Her insurance does not cover it and Children's Hospital is going to remove her off life support if can't get her out of this hospital."

This news of an out-of-state hospital differs from reports earlier Friday when Jahi's family and attorney said that there was a long-term care facility in Southern California that would take her. Early Saturday morning no one could be reached for comment.

I am very, very doubtful that Jahi will be transferred anywhere.

If indeed there is a place in New York willing to take her, getting Jahi's body from Oakland to New York is very, very complicated (and not just medically). I know this because I was an active duty USAF military flight nurse for many years before I went to anesthesia school, and moved patients all over the world-- some of whom were on ventilators. We did some diplomatic state department medevac moves as well, and some civilians who were in places like Russia, and medically weren't suitable for commercial flights.

Here is a link to one company that could do a cross country move. I have no idea what the actual cost would be, but I have to think it would be in excess of $50K just based on aircraft operating costs alone. Possible closer to $100K. But this is just a guess. It could be much more than that.

http://www.angelmedflight.com/airambulance-mission.html

 

[Trino]

Remember Usher's son? It appears coverage was for a few months.

http://perezhilton.com/2012-07-15-u...oster-insurance-coverage#sthash.Leps3kwX.dpbs

"According to sources, Tameka's insurance company has yet to set a specific deadline, but have made it clear that they will only cover the cost of the enormous hospital bills for a few months."

 

[Minette]

The mother does not seem to understand at all what the actual situation is. This fundraising page speaks of having Jahi 'airlifted' to a 'hospital' in another state (instead of transported to a nursing home) as if she is in need of life-saving care that is going to be turned off by the cruel hospital and the heartless insurance company which won't pay for the 'airlift.' It is heartbreaking, but at this point I think there is nothing which will convince Mrs. Winkfield that her daughter is already dead and there will be no recovery ever until Jahi's heart stops and/or other systems fail and she starts visibly decomposing.

How is this 'kind' to either Jahi or her family?? No one wanted to be responsible for turning off the ventilator over Christmas so now we have this continuing media circus and these people giving money to save Jahi's 'life' and this is all before the litigation really gets started. Well, it is not Christmas now, and the potential ethical repercussions of that well-meaning decision are enormous.

Does anyone know whether HIPPA restrictions are affected at all with the death of a patient? If so, perhaps the hospital actually has more leeway to discuss the case than it currently seems.

 

[MissJ]

If there is a death certificate in this case it would be unethical to do tube feeds or any type of surgical intervention. The judge has made a decision. The family asked for his (judge's) intervention and now they don't like the result. Her vent will be turned off at whatever time on the 30th that the judge said it would be. JMO. I do not believe any facility will take this case before then. But we shall see.

 

[Trino]

http://www.deathreference.com/Ke-Ma/Life-Support-System.html

Good article. Says it all about what it takes to keep a person on life support.

 

[Donjeta]

http://jme.bmj.com/content/31/11/641.full


Received 13 January 2005
Accepted 19 January 2005

Whether the law should permit individuals to opt out of accepted death standards is a question that must be faced and clarified

While media coverage of the Terri Schiavo case in Florida has recently refocused public attention on end of life decision making, another end of life tragedy in Utah has raised equally challenging—and possibly more fundamental—questions about the roles of physicians and families in matters of death. The patient at the centre of this case was Jesse Koochin, a six year old boy suffering from “inoperable and incurable” brain cancer. He had been undergoing care at Primary Children’s Medical Center in Salt Lake City since September 15, 2004 when “his tumor pushed his brain stem down through the skull”.1 Subsequently, two physicians independently determined that the child was “brain dead” and informed his parents that they would order life support removed within twenty four hours. Steve and Gayle Koochin overtly rejected the hospital’s definition of death. The couple, relying on traditional notions of cardiopulmonary death, obtained a restraining order to keep Jesse on a ventilator and ultimately removed the brain dead child from the hospital. The ongoing case raises the complex question of whether patients’ families should be permitted to opt out of widely accepted definitions of death in favour of their own standards.

 

[K_Z]

If there is a death certificate in this case it would be unethical to do tube feeds or any type of surgical intervention. The judge has made a decision. The family asked for his (judge's) intervention and now they don't like the result. Her vent will be turned off at whatever time on the 30th that the judge said it would be. JMO. I do not believe any facility will take this case before then. But we shall see.

I don't think her body will be transferred to another care facility, but I do think the family attorney will file a flurry of motions and appeals to prevent the vent from being disconnected at 5 pm Monday. That could continue this "in limbo" situation for another week or 2.

I hope they have moved her body out of the ICU to a private room on a palliative unit or a regular medical floor. That is what I think would be helpful for the family. And lots and lots of access to counselors and social workers. The hospital is under no obligation to keep her body in the ICU.

I'm also not certain that there is an actual official death certificate generated yet. She is declared dead, but I think the paperwork to generate a death certificate will begin when the vent is disconnected, and the coroner/ ME takes custody of her body. Her medical records will have lots of documentation about the determination of death, court orders, etc. Her situation is the same whether or not there is a death certificate generated yet.

 

[Trino]

http://jme.bmj.com/content/31/11/641.full


Received 13 January 2005
Accepted 19 January 2005

Whether the law should permit individuals to opt out of accepted death standards is a question that must be faced and clarified

While media coverage of the Terri Schiavo case in Florida has recently refocused public attention on end of life decision making, another end of life tragedy in Utah has raised equally challenging—and possibly more fundamental—questions about the roles of physicians and families in matters of death. The patient at the centre of this case was Jesse Koochin, a six year old boy suffering from “inoperable and incurable” brain cancer. He had been undergoing care at Primary Children’s Medical Center in Salt Lake City since September 15, 2004 when “his tumor pushed his brain stem down through the skull”.1 Subsequently, two physicians independently determined that the child was “brain dead” and informed his parents that they would order life support removed within twenty four hours. Steve and Gayle Koochin overtly rejected the hospital’s definition of death. The couple, relying on traditional notions of cardiopulmonary death, obtained a restraining order to keep Jesse on a ventilator and ultimately removed the brain dead child from the hospital. The ongoing case raises the complex question of whether patients’ families should be permitted to opt out of widely accepted definitions of death in favour of their own standards.

The difference I see is the Koochin family accepted Jesse's impending death. Jahi's family believes she will recover.

 

[Donjeta]

The hospital that discharged Jesse said:

In a statement issued Wednesday, Primary Children's says it has no intention of caring for brain-dead patients meeting Utah's legal definition of death in the future.

"It is understandable that the death of a child is difficult for parents," the statement said. "Nevertheless, our staff cannot continue to provide treatment for patients who have met the condition of brain death because it is unethical to do so. In fact, if a hospital tried to bill a payer for such services, it could be considered medical fraud."

The statement said any medical study that proposed keeping a person on a ventilator for an undetermined period of time after brain death would be rejected as unethical by every institution in the country.

http://archive.sltrib.com/printfriendly.php?id=2434474&itype=ngpsid